Can we stop the ECT now?

Electroconvulsive Therapy, as barbaric as it sounds... well it is barbaric. It is used, in the UK, when a person isnt responding to treatments for depression and can be forced upon a person without their consent. Memory loss is a common complaint, however it can be known as a 'miracle cure' or death for the few. Despite the fact that ECT is a controversial treatment, it has been used for decades with mixed results.



Lets hope that this type of 'treatment' is a thing of the past.

Drug 'treats depression in hours'

The study involving 17 patients found ketamine - used as an anaesthetic but also taken as a recreational drug - relieved symptoms of depression.

Scientists from the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) injected 17 patients with either a very low dose of ketamine or a placebo of saline solution.

The participants were all depression sufferers who had tried an average of six treatments that had failed.

By the end of day one, he added, 71% had responded to the drug. And at this point the team found 29% of these patients were nearly symptom free.

The researchers also discovered one dose lasted for at least a week in more than one-third of the participants.

We know that there are people with depression that resist treatments, Im hoping that this can give people the help they need without resorting to inducing fearful seizures with memory loss.

From Wikipedia

Procedures for involuntary ECT vary from country to country depending on local mental health laws. Legal proceedings are required in some countries, while in others ECT is seen as another form of treatment that may be given involuntarily as long as legal conditions are observed.
In the United States, involuntary ECT may not be initiated by a physician or family member without a judicial proceeding. In every state, the administration of ECT on an involuntary basis requires such a judicial proceeding at which patients may be represented by legal counsel. As a rule, such petitions are granted only where the prompt institution of ECT is regarded as potentially lifesaving, as in the case of a person in grave danger because of lack of food or fluid intake caused by catatonia.

I know that ECT is no longer used in the U.S. for mental illness, and only used when a person has become a psychological vegetable. And only with court approval.

I am rather surprised that this therapy is used in the UK, which is usually a bit more advanced in such things.

Hell, im surprised in this day and age anyone in the west uses it. Despite it being a relatively modern thing, it just seems to be so...medieval.


As far as Ketamine goes, i say a big no. Ketamine, also called special k, is definitely not a choice for treating depression, as Ive seen people on it, even low doses. Its not that different than any other drug. Especially when the user comes crashing down off of it. The side effects are not pretty.

[edit on 15-8-2006 by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I know that ECT is no longer used in the U.S. for mental illness, and only used when a person has become a psychological vegetable. And only with court approval.

Since when, is this recent? I know of someone hospitalized 3 years ago (bi-polar) at a private facility and one of her housemates was being offered ECT since she was not responding to treatment for a more serious disorder.

It would not have been done without her consent but it was available to her as an option. I know this because the person I knew there was asking me to do research to see what I thought since her friend didn't know what to do. (I stayed out of that one).

So unless they just stopped it since then, it's still out there.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Hell, im surprised in this day and age anyone in the west uses it. Despite it being a relatively modern thing, it just seems to be so...medieval.

From American Psychiatric Association

No psychiatrist simply "decides" to treat a patient with ECT. Before he or she can administer ECT, he or she must first obtain written consent from the patient. If the patient is too ill to make decisions for him or herself, in most states a court-appointed guardian (usually one of the patient's family members) can provide consent.

I really dont think they make that big of deal getting permission to use ECT, if the patient cant give permission then a family member can.

As far as Ketamine goes, i say a big no.

The BBC article went on to say:

The team says ketamine, in its current form, would not be appropriate for medication because of side-effects at higher doses, which include hallucinations and euphoria.

Dr Zarate said: "This study is a tool to help us understand what part of ketamine is causing this effect so we can refine and develop better drugs.

"We are also looking at ways that we could use ketamine maybe in lower doses or with drugs that block its perceptual effects so we could perhaps use it clinically."

So, what would you prefer, electricity or a very low dose of ketamine? Im surprised you saw someone take a low dose of K and have such an awful time of it, you see as far as Im aware if someone takes K at a low dose, not much happens to them. A first timer to K must take the appropriate dose, quite high, to get any effects, too low and nothing (or a mild dreamy effect*) - doesnt matter if its the first time of 50th time. There is no tolerance, not like with heroin where you need more and more.

Originally posted by Relentless

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I know that ECT is no longer used in the U.S. for mental illness, and only used when a person has become a psychological vegetable. And only with court approval.

Since when, is this recent? I know of someone hospitalized 3 years ago (bi-polar) at a private facility and one of her housemates was being offered ECT since she was not responding to treatment for a more serious disorder.

It would not have been done without her consent but it was available to her as an option. I know this because the person I knew there was asking me to do research to see what I thought since her friend didn't know what to do. (I stayed out of that one).

So unless they just stopped it since then, it's still out there.

This is more along the lines of "erasing" bad memories.
Should one "spark" a chemical (imbalanced or otherwise) organ. I think not.

This treatment was typically only allowed on the most severe episodes of someone beyond control, who expressed criminal intent. Murderers and the like.

My main point is, you should not introduce an electrical current ever. This is Medical, Scientific, and common sense fact.

I know they tried to revamp the issue, without success.

ECT is used in the Uk and no it does not involve the C part. Muscle relaxants are used and the current is applied across the skull...

Guess what guys- controversial maybe , unpleasant certainly ( for those watching anyway) but in certain cases it WORKS.. ask the guys who don't kill themselves or others if it was worth it for them.. Then argue with the relatives of those who are dead that might not have been with use of ECT ... then decide ...

Ketamine - you have got to be kidding......Why do you think you can't get Codeine or morhine cough medicines any longer ...LMAO

Originally posted by Deharg
ECT is used in the Uk and no it does not involve the C part. Muscle relaxants are used and the current is applied across the skull...

The C part does still occur, yes muscle relaxants are given but a seizure is the desired outcome.

Guess what guys- controversial maybe , unpleasant certainly ( for those watching anyway)

But you said there was muscle relaxant, how could it be unpleasant for those watching?

but in certain cases it WORKS..

In some cases, some. How does it work? The idea is to stimulate the brain into producing a seizure... to relieve depression. Well duh! Memory loss, cognitive function decreases - the brain has been though a course of seizures!

Source

Shortly following the ECT course most patients manifest deficits in retaining newly learned information (anterograde amnesia) and recalling events that occurred in the weeks or months preceding the ECT course (retrograde amnesia) (Sackeim, 1992; Squire, 1986). Randomized controlled trials have shown more severe short-term memory deficits with sine wave compared to brief pulse stimulation (Valentine et al, 1968; Weiner et al, 1986), bilateral (BL) compared to right unilateral (RUL) electrode placement (Lancaster et al, 1958; Sackeim et al, 1986; Sackeim et al, 1993; Sackeim et al, 2000), and higher electrical dosage (McCall et al, 2000; Ottosson, 1960; Sackeim et al, 1993). These adverse effects are reduced by the use of RUL ECT with brief or ultrabrief pulse stimulation and electrical dosage titrated to the needs of the individual patient (Sackeim, 2004b). Nonetheless, a minority of US practitioners still use sine wave stimulation, approximately half do not adjust dosage relative to the patient’s seizure threshold, and a majority administer mainly or exclusively BL ECT (Farah and McCall, 1993; Prudic et al, 2004; Prudic et al, 2001). The continued use of treatment techniques associated with more severe short-term cognitive deficits may reflect the beliefs that the cognitive deficits are transient and that older treatment methods provide greater assurance of efficacy (Scott et al, 1992).

ask the guys who don't kill themselves or others if it was worth it for them.. Then argue with the relatives of those who are dead that might not have been with use of ECT ... then decide ...

I wasnt aware that severely depressed people acutally kill other people. In fact, when severely depressed people do find themselves getting a little bit better, perhaps with ECT, suicide is a factor.

I have talked to people, a friend who works in the mental health sector, but I wont go anecdotal, suffice to say:

Source

The UK Advocacy Network's survey of people who had received ECT treatment found that 30% of people who had received ECT found it helpful or very helpful, while over 50% found it unhelpful or damaging.

Ketamine - you have got to be kidding......Why do you think you can't get Codeine or morhine cough medicines any longer ...LMAO

Yes well the same reason they dont give babies herion in 'soothing' mixtures anymore, its plain crazy. However, codeine and morphine are still used in the medical world - and so is ketamine. And we are talking about the medical world, not some partygoers taking drugs.

Anyway, heres one of the many 'theories' on how it works:
Source

Psychological theory: Depressed people often feel guilty, and ECT satisfies their need for punishment. Alternatively, the dramatic nature of ECT and the nursing care afterwards makes patients feel they are being taken seriously; i.e. the placebo effect.

Doesnt sound so professional to me and very much ripe for abuse.

Electroconvulsive Therapy is still used in the U.S today.I was hospitalized recently in a private psychiatric facility to control my bipolar disorder and there were at least a dozen- probably more- patients- I wasn't one of them- who were receiving the procedure.

The procedure consists of a muscle relaxer being administered first, then a small dose of general anasethetic is given. All of this is performed by a Medical Doctor with their specialty in Anesthesiology. after the anesthetic and muscle relaxant take effect, a one second electric current is applied to the temple area of the head, causing the body to seizure. the body does not actually convulse and seize due to the administration of the muscle relaxant, though. the patient is then taken to a recovery area and observed for a period of time by a trained team of doctors and nurses.

The most common side effects are muscle stiffness and short-term memory loss. The death rate for ECT is less than 1 in 50,000; which is less than the death rate for child birth.

Most people still have misconceptions of ECT based on movies such as "One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest", but it is quite a safe procedure, and it is very effective for those who are medication resistant or are unable to take medication for some reason.

Wikipedia's ECT Page- Old Information, In My Opinion
BryLin Hospital in Buffalo, NY- Explanation of Their ECT Procedure

[edit on 7-9-2006 by Bobbo]

The guidlines for ECT use is fairly narrow and its not used often in the US anymore.

Here is the APA's bit on it

www.psych.org...

Today, the American Psychiatric Association has very strict guidelines for ECT administration. This organization supports use of ECT only to treat severe, disabling mental disorders; never to control behavior.

I would agree its use in the past was by and large inappropriate and often misused, but the criteria today is narrow and strict, and it has shown some clinical benifit to patients not reached by other threapy.

As I said muscle relaxants are used and a convulsion ( uncontrolled) does not occur. What occurs is a seizure which is a brain function not a skeletal muscle convulsion.

There are minor muscle actions of course as not all muscles are relaxed by muscle relaxants and so it is distressing for those watching.

What is induced is a brain seizure as this is what was decided is the effctive part. What is not induced is an uncontrolled skeletal muscle reaction to the application of current across the brain.