Military Strength of Russia (and compared to other nations)

Originally posted by Russian soldier

Originally posted by zikan42
you'll think differently when they beat the **** out of you in the army. Im russian, and im not scared to admit that russian army is a mess. We have good tech, but no money to produce it. Russia is in no possition to wage a war right now.

Do you know how many times I've had the **** beaten out of me? I've lived a harsh street life, but I was beaten before I became what I am now-a powerful, crazy at times, hotheaded, reckless, risk taker, "Mr. readytodie, Idon'tcareaboutlife, and respectable. There is >nothing< in life that will ever make me be afraid again. And death, I am ready. And don't think I don't know about what goes on in Russian army, I have news, you know. I talk to people, etc. But I know what happens in other armies, too. And someone beating the **** out of me will not make me think differently. Besides, beating me up is a very very hard thing to do. Except maybe for those in higher command. But I know how to gain respect. We shall see.

And I never said that some of Russia's army isn't a mess. Just like any country's. More or less. But Russia is still the best.

ok, its very clear that you are just a kid. Dont worry, your perspective will clerify when they cut your legs off like they did to so many other kids. No street life will help you, get real. You got to be the first person from russia to actually want to go to our army, seems that putin is brainwashing you well over there. And no, it DOESNT happen in other countries. Here in canada, or in isreal or any other sane country out there, people view army as a great learning experience, something that will benefit they in the future (and cover education sosts too) In Russia, the youth is fleeing the country just to avoid it. Russia hasnt fought a justifying war since ww2, do you really want to die so some "new russians" can make some money?

Russian conventional army is a complete mess, and Russia is far from being the best right now. Believe me, I am saying these words with great regret right now. It will probably take it 50-100 years to get to the top, or if ever...

Originally posted by zikan42

Originally posted by Russian soldier

Originally posted by zikan42
you'll think differently when they beat the **** out of you in the army. Im russian, and im not scared to admit that russian army is a mess. We have good tech, but no money to produce it. Russia is in no possition to wage a war right now.

Do you know how many times I've had the **** beaten out of me? I've lived a harsh street life, but I was beaten before I became what I am now-a powerful, crazy at times, hotheaded, reckless, risk taker, "Mr. readytodie, Idon'tcareaboutlife, and respectable. There is >nothing< in life that will ever make me be afraid again. And death, I am ready. And don't think I don't know about what goes on in Russian army, I have news, you know. I talk to people, etc. But I know what happens in other armies, too. And someone beating the **** out of me will not make me think differently. Besides, beating me up is a very very hard thing to do. Except maybe for those in higher command. But I know how to gain respect. We shall see.

And I never said that some of Russia's army isn't a mess. Just like any country's. More or less. But Russia is still the best.

ok, its very clear that you are just a kid. Dont worry, your perspective will clerify when they cut your legs off like they did to so many other kids. No street life will help you, get real. You got to be the first person from russia to actually want to go to our army, seems that putin is brainwashing you well over there. And no, it DOESNT happen in other countries. Here in canada, or in isreal or any other sane country out there, people view army as a great learning experience, something that will benefit they in the future (and cover education sosts too) In Russia, the youth is fleeing the country just to avoid it. Russia hasnt fought a justifying war since ww2, do you really want to die so some "new russians" can make some money?

Russian conventional army is a complete mess, and Russia is far from being the best right now. Believe me, I am saying these words with great regret right now. It will probably take it 50-100 years to get to the top, or if ever...

i won't talk about anything you said except the thing about a "justifying war", no country has fought any "justifying" war since WWII. every war or most wars the US has been in, the USSR has been in, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, all of em. btw, the man just said he lived in the US most of his life, not in russia, so brainwashing to go to russia i don't think has reached him.

well i don't know about cutting legs, but i think it's a good thing that this man hasn't been to jail or got killed already as many kids who go through street life do, and is going to the army, i mean i think that's a good achievement, and he should be congratulated for it. now the army he chosses to serve is his preference and doesn't really matter, what matters is he's on the right track, even if the army isn't....

Thanks Inc2006. Yo, Russian guy that is telling me the bad things about Russian army, almost every man in my family has served in the Russian army. My grandfather, who is still in Russia right now, eventually became an officer in the Russian army. I have friends who live there. Hmm, no one seems to be fleeing from there! Leg cutting? WTF? Never heard about that. Please post a link to validate your statement. People do wish to leave Russia, but that is because for some, it is very hard to find a job. The crime rate in Russia and its army is no higher then other countries. And, I repeat, I have seen things that SOMETIMES but >not all the time< happen in Russian army. Neither my father, grandfathers, great grandfathers, friend's father, and others have been subject to beatings. And whenever it DOES happen, the Russian human rights activists and families of the victims put up a big fight. I've read about it. Beating happens in every army, if you don't think so, you are ignorant. While army can be a learning experience, it can also be the most dangerous thing in your life, if you go to war, which is where I'm going. Russian guy, you have not seen the things I've seen, you havn't lived what I have lived. Those things are worse then being picked on by higher command or being beaten by other soldiers and/or Seargants. That is, if it were to happen. I know exactly what I'm doing. This is what I want to do. This is what I like. This is what you can call my proffession.

Don't make Russia's army sound as if it were a German concentration camp. Seriously, I talk to "Americanized" Russians alot, er some of them. Some of the pist me off so much with their bs comparing Russian army to hell, etc.

Dude, in US a girl gets raped and shot 15 times afterwards by cops. THAT'S what I call hell. Yet people live. Anybody's life can end suddenly at any time. I want mine to end at least after I get a chance to join MY country's army. And NO, I'm not fighting for the skinheads, I'm fighting for the peasants, the poor, the middle class, the not greedy rich, and for Russia as a whole. I know what I'm doing. I'm very smart, hardly someone you could consider "dumb". There is nothing else in life that I want to do. This is my thing. I know and am even sure that I could lose my life. But besides the fact that I don't care about losing my life, I would have at least SOME reason to risk my life. After all, living a little longer does mean that I get to have sex longer, hang out with friends longer, and eat good food longer.

Besides, I'm getting bored with Civillian life. I don't feel like I'm living right now. I work, go to school, but this is not life. Army is a new way of life. Going back to Russia will be a new way of life. I want to partially forget this life, do my thing. Being a soldier is my life. Its all I'm good at. Its all I WANT to be good at.

A quick note-immigration is natural. People immigrate from Russia. But people immigrate from US, too. People immigrate from Mexico, from China, from India, from everywhere. And just like US, people MIGRATE to Russia, too. Japanese, Indian, Mexican,from various countries of Africa, Europeen etc, etc.

My coworker's son happily lives married with children in a city in Siberia and owns a shop there.

posted by INc2006

I would say the Russian military is not in shambles and can fight a war. In case of a war, the Russian military can be rejuvenated. The Russian government would rather direct much needed money to the army in case of war than to anything else, as happened in WWII. As long as a strong leader is in Russia, this can be done . . [Edited by Don W]

Mr Putin is a strong leader. Who will take his place? I do not mean to say wrong or bad things about the Russian armed forces. I must try to stay with the facts. Even with the outrageous prices we pay for goods, there is no way Russia can be competitive with the US in overall military capability.

Let’s play like the Russian Federation spends $40 billion equivalent on its armed forces. Army, Navy and Air Force. The US spends $455 billion in its primary budget. Add $75 billion or so for the (failed) Iraq and (failing) Afghan effort. Add 60% of our current interest payment of $400 billion a year because that much of our national debt is due to past military expenses. $240 billion. Add $30 billion a year we spend on our veterans. I do not know if the numbers above include retirement pensions for former military and civilian employees of the Government or not.

Aside: American 4 star generals (and admirals) pay is shown as $180,000 a year. Congress has a second law that limits generals pay to $145,000 a year. Why this anomaly? Military retirement is 75% of pay. That is figured on the higher number. When a 4 star general retires, he is paid $135,000 a year. Tricky, eh?

Resume. My point is the US spends about $800 billion a year for current and past military operations, that is, for making WAR. I am of the opinion that sum equals 65% of the Federation’s GDP. This has nothing to do with the quality or courage of Russia’s soldiers or sailors, but it has everything to do with the numbers of first rate equipment, the supply logistics, and the level of training which is the key to success in live combat. And of that, training, I believe the US has the most and the best.
See www.cia.gov...


[edit on 9/19/2006 by donwhite]

posted by INc2006

Russian conventional army is a complete mess, and Russia is far from being the best right now. Believe me, I am saying these words with great regret right now. It will probably take it 50-100 years to get to the top, or if ever...

So let us hypothesize for a minute. About what size and fight-level armed forces the Russian Federation really needs. The Russo-China border is settled. I am unaware of any similar disputes between Russian Federation and any of the former Soviet republics. That leaves 2, maybe 3, paramount issues. 1) Chechnya. 2) Ukraine. And maybe 3), Belarus.

Ukraine and probably Belarus have large populations that are not friendly to the Putin Russian Federation. Neither country wants to return to the subservient status once imposed on them in the old USSR. Some critics say, economically, the Russian Federation is a basket case, but if that be so, then Ukraine and Belarus don’t even have a basket! Clearly, Russia has interfered in the internal affairs of both countries. How it plays out remains to be seen.

Chechnya, OTOH, is the home of the rebels who caused 100s of deaths in the Moscow theater and who caused the deaths of 100s of children in the Beslan school take-over. Those unhappy events demonstrate the intensity of resentment to Russian dominance of a region that has always wanted to be an independent state.

It is my impression that Moscow’s determination to retain the Chechen Republic as part of the Russian Federation is based in large part on its strategic location, vis a vis the Black Sea. (I don’t know and I can’t find a map to show me the location of Novorossiysk, in Krasnodar Krai, the major Russian city on the Black Sea.) Since Ivan the Terrible (d. 1584) Russia has sought a warm water port. Russia is nearly 2X the size of the United States or China. But Russia has no direct access to the Atlantic Ocean. Its access to the Pacific via Vladivostok is sharply limited by the great distance of the Trans-Siberian RR.

It was British foreign policy for 3 centuries to deny such a port to Russia. The best the USSR or Russia was able to achieve are ports on the Black Sea. Kaliningrad, on the Baltic, is “land-locked” away from Russia. In both cases, peacetime traversing is ok, but in time of war, the Baltic and the Black Seas are easy to close to Russian ships. The Mediterranean Sea was once controlled by Gibraltar on the west and Suez on the east, both under Great Brittan. Russia is still no better off in this regard than it was under Ivan.

My family members served as well. I talk to many people about this too. My dad served in Soveit navy and he says it was

crap, Russian army right now is nothing to what it once was.

How DARE you compare what happens in american or many other armies to dedovshina. 10 000 cases happen every year, with 2000

lethal outcomes. Thats way more than the total number of americans dying in Iraq. Most of the people are indimitated to keep

silent. Before, when my father was serving, the soldiers were still being beaten but by other soldiers and with surtain

precausions. Now, the actual commanders are at it. They damand money from the boys, they made them send letters back home

asking them to send it over. As you know, many russians dont have any money so the soldiers have to go outside and BEG for

the money for their commanders.
Human rights activists? HAAHAHA. Families are told to keep quite about the crimes and most do. In RARE cases, the story goes

into the media and the army is forced to look into the problem.
You got to be the most ignorant person if you honestly think that the crime rate is the same as in other countries'

militaries.As I said, nobody is afraid to go to army in canada for example- all you will have to put up with is yelling, but

nobody will raise their hand at you. Everybody I know in russia, and I mean everybody, doesnt want their sons, or themselves

to go to that hellhole. They ALL want to escape the country in order to avoid it.
You want to go to war? Chechnya? Start up by shooting that bastard putin in the face, for planting explosives in the

buildings prior to the invasion on the country. Chechnya is a war for oil, just like Iraq.
Also dont compare crime rates of US to that of Russia, its just uncomparible. Oh, and the country is still controlled by

mafia.

ALOT of people are immigrating Russia, and they have a really good reason. While few americans leave their country for good

jobs somewhere else, to travel or to go to another developed country; Majority of russians would immigrate if they had a

chance.

You should get out of moscow and see what the real russia is like. While loving your country is good, its not wise to ignore

its problems and pretend that everything is fine and the same in all other countries. The truth is, russia is in ruins. It

will probably never catch up to the west, or it will take at least 100 years. When you look back at the history, the people

have never lived well in our country.

Originally posted by zikan42
You got to be the first person from russia to actually want to go to our army, seems that putin is brainwashing you well over there.

Which country has the biggest volunteer standing army? Talk about brainwashing!

And no, it DOESNT happen in other countries. Here in canada, or in isreal or any other sane country out there, people view army as a great learning experience, something that will benefit they in the future (and cover education sosts too)

RIGHT! What they teach you in most armies in the world is simply useless for the civilian world and if it benefits you that mostly shows up the sad state of that countries education system and general social condition.

In Russia, the youth is fleeing the country just to avoid it. Russia hasnt fought a justifying war since ww2, do you really want to die so some "new russians" can make some money?

As far as i could discover Russia has had more justification for it's actions around the world since the Second world war than any of the Western powers.

Russian conventional army is a complete mess, and Russia is far from being the best right now. Believe me, I am saying these words with great regret right now. It will probably take it 50-100 years to get to the top, or if ever...

Russia still dominates the globe in terms of the strategic firepower ( nuclear) it can bring to bear without suffering anywhere near the type of damage it will inflict on it's enemies. It's the only nation on earth with active ( nuclear weapons), passive ( national ABM system) and extensive civil defenses so i do not seriously doubt that they will come out best in a third world war scenario.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX

Originally posted by zikan42
You got to be the first person from russia to actually want to go to our army, seems that putin is brainwashing you well over there.

Which country has the biggest volunteer standing army? Talk about brainwashing!

And no, it DOESNT happen in other countries. Here in canada, or in isreal or any other sane country out there, people view army as a great learning experience, something that will benefit they in the future (and cover education sosts too)

RIGHT! What they teach you in most armies in the world is simply useless for the civilian world and if it benefits you that mostly shows up the sad state of that countries education system and general social condition.

In Russia, the youth is fleeing the country just to avoid it. Russia hasnt fought a justifying war since ww2, do you really want to die so some "new russians" can make some money?

As far as i could discover Russia has had more justification for it's actions around the world since the Second world war than any of the Western powers.

Russian conventional army is a complete mess, and Russia is far from being the best right now. Believe me, I am saying these words with great regret right now. It will probably take it 50-100 years to get to the top, or if ever...

Russia still dominates the globe in terms of the strategic firepower ( nuclear) it can bring to bear without suffering anywhere near the type of damage it will inflict on it's enemies. It's the only nation on earth with active ( nuclear weapons), passive ( national ABM system) and extensive civil defenses so i do not seriously doubt that they will come out best in a third world war scenario.

Stellar

Propoganda exists in every country, however, putin is taking it to a new level in russia with almost all news sources owned by state. And most of the people in US join the army because it actually benefits them (scolarships for example)

Id rather not be tought what they teach you in russian army. Like you know, instead of actually good amry training, being taught sadism, and beggary. Nor do I want to be handicapped like thousands of russian soldiers every year. That is a lame and a wrong excuse...If anything, you learn useful skills in WESTERN armies.

Both dont. I cant think of one justified war america fought since ww2, but what did russia have? Massacars in hungary, imperialistic invasion on afganistan and chechen wars...

I am aware of russian missile forces and missile defense. But I am talking about conventional firepower, ability to project conventional force world wide.

Originally posted by StellarX
RIGHT! What they teach you in most armies in the world is simply useless for the civilian world and if it benefits you that mostly shows up the sad state of that countries education system and general social condition.

I'm not sure what they they teach in the South African Army, I know it used to be Shooting Blacks 101. In other Western Armies, joining up is a good opportunity to get a tertiary education paid for by the military.

In Russia, the youth is fleeing the country just to avoid it. Russia hasnt fought a justifying war since ww2, do you really want to die so some "new russians" can make some money?

As far as i could discover Russia has had more justification for it's actions around the world since the Second world war than any of the Western powers.

RIght right. SO they had more justification killing thousan of people in Budapest in 1956 or Czecoslovakia n 1968, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Afghan vivlians they killed Justification my as.

[quote
Russia still dominates the globe in terms of the strategic firepower ( nuclear) it can bring to bear without suffering anywhere near the type of damage it will inflict on it's enemies. It's the only nation on earth with active ( nuclear weapons), passive ( national ABM system) and extensive civil defenses so i do not seriously doubt that they will come out best in a third world war scenario.

LOL, right as if a country culd come out on top with a major nuclear war. These fanatsies of yours are wuite delusional.I'm curious what coming out on top means exactly, please tell us more sane members.

Stellar

Can we please ditch the "WESTERN armies benefits' far exceed others" bit??
Really..
Is service in the Russian Army mandatory(one year service types) and/or is drafting conducted?

My friends and family may not live the lives of kings in Russia, but they don't live "concentration death camp","hellhole" style. My father, grandfather, etc, said that the army was a great experience, and I have talked to them alot about it. I personally know people that have migrated to Russia because it IS a great country. Every country has problems, and it all depends from what side you look at. All you are looking at are negative stuff, and exaggarating them hundreds of times over.

Oh, by the way, if all that crap happened so often in Russian army, why are there so few (well not to say there are few of them, just like US, but if it was as bad as you say, more would be deserting) soldiers deserting? Why is the Russian army operating well and effectivly? I doubt soldiers with their legs cut off would score so many victories in Chechen wars. Russia DOES have reason to fight in the Chechen rebels-the rebels struck first. Even after the ceasefire, They Struck First. Now they (only the rebels, not the normal Chechen folk) suffer the consequences. I know, sometimes Russian soldiers kill innocents. But this crap happens in every country, ESPECIALLY America.

If this was that bad, there would be twice as few or even fewer soldiers in the Russian army. Russia would not be as successful in combat, no one would be migrating to Russia, etc.

I like all countries. I just like Russia more, because it IS the greatest, and it IS my country. Ya sluju rodinu.

I could name all the negative effects and exaggerations of any country, but I have better things to do then hate on countries. In fact, I don't ever hate on countries.

And remember, bad stuff happens in every country.

Oh, and remember there ARE many people in Russia who CAN immigrate to other places. Yet they're still there! Do you have an explanation for THAT? What about my friends? Family? Why are they still there? They can migrate! Why do people keep coming to Russia? Do you know how many Blacks live in Russia? They come from various parts of Africa and come to Russia and live happily. People from US migrate to Russia. People from Japan, India, Malaysia, EVERYWHERE migrate to Russia. Do you have an explanation to this?

Just 7 more months. And I will be in the Russian army.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Can we please ditch the "WESTERN armies benefits' far exceed others" bit??

Really..
Is service in the Russian Army mandatory(one year service types) and/or is drafting conducted?

1 year service? I thought that the minimum was like 2 years. But I am not sure for sure. I am planning to serve for 4 years. Take a break for a while. Then do 2 more years. Perhaps I will rise rank. I might do more or less time in the military depending on how the first 4 years go. And I am ready for anything, someone messing with me, extreme war, etc. Army is my life. Russia is my life. Russian army is my life.

Originally posted by StellarX
Which country has the biggest volunteer standing army? Talk about brainwashing!

Sorry Stellar but just WTF are you trying to say? Please clarify.

Russian Army Text Black

No words just watch!!! Special Forces VDV
Russian Army

[edit on 20-9-2006 by Russian Boy]

Originally posted by Russian soldier
My friends and family may not live the lives of kings in Russia, but they don't live "concentration death camp","hellhole" style. My father, grandfather, etc, said that the army was a great experience, and I have talked to them alot about it. I personally know people that have migrated to Russia because it IS a great country.

LOl I can guarantee that very few if any people migrate fromt the West to Russia. Why would they opt for a far lower standard of living under a quasi totalitarian regime. As people have said the Russians excel at brainwashing and propaganda, I guess Russia;s citizens aren't that smart as a whole.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by StellarX
Which country has the biggest volunteer standing army? Talk about brainwashing!

Sorry Stellar but just WTF are you trying to say? Please clarify.

I am trying to say that if one talks about brainwashing one should mention the American armed forces. How many countries have citizens foolish enough ( whatever they are offered ) to join a Army that frequently invades other countries? Few others nations have brain washed their citizens well enough that they can be induced to join in such large numbers.

Stellar

Originally posted by zikan42
Propoganda exists in every country, however, putin is taking it to a new level in russia with almost all news sources owned by state.

Rather the state ( you can at least vote them out of power now and again) than corporations who are responsible to NO ONE.

And most of the people in US join the army because it actually benefits them (scolarships for example)

If your starving and have no job prospects anything is better than nothing but to suggest that the training they get somehow prepare them for the job market they were never ready for in the first place? Well that is reaching well beyond reality.

Id rather not be tought what they teach you in russian army. Like you know, instead of actually good amry training, being taught sadism, and beggary.

Until we get torture and execution videos from Chechnya i think we know which country in the world has the most sadistic soldiers and/or trains the sadistic torturers of most other countries. School of the America's anyone? Give me a break!

Nor do I want to be handicapped like thousands of russian soldiers every year. That is a lame and a wrong excuse...If anything, you learn useful skills in WESTERN armies.

People die in training all the time and you really should go look at what happens in EVERY western army to see that this is part of it. If the Russian army is far worse off there is a great deal you can explain by the fact that conscripts may not be very happy with their plight. You start drafting Americans and see what happens to standards and discipline.

Both dont. I cant think of one justified war america fought since ww2, but what did russia have? Massacars in hungary, imperialistic invasion on afganistan and chechen wars...

They were not massacres by most standards ( certainly not compared to the atrocities committed by America ) and certainly not anything like the hundreds of thousands of people who got bombed to death without America even bothering to declare war on them or admitting to a war on them. The audacity to even bother trying to compare WELL RECORDED AND DOCUMENTED American atrocities to supposed crimes by the USSR is actually just sick. The policies of Western governments ( especially the USA) has killed far more people than Stalin could ever dream about or for that matter reach.

I am aware of russian missile forces and missile defense. But I am talking about conventional firepower, ability to project conventional force world wide.

The Russians have apparently no interest to police the world and attacking defenseless poor countries just to visit whole sale destruction on them for the aim of privatization and control of their economies. The Russians has a defense force in the true sense of the word and that means they will fight major enemies with everything they have when pressed but wont just go around the world picking fights to try float their economy.

Stellar

Originally posted by rogue1
I'm not sure what they they teach in the South African Army, I know it used to be Shooting Blacks 101.

Standard baiting as opening i see!

In other Western Armies, joining up is a good opportunity to get a tertiary education paid for by the military.

It is a good opportunity only because the system created the poor that is dependent on such opportunities. You could give them the loans to get a education without spending the billions of dollars that creating employment trough the military is based on. It's a dumb idea used by politicians to make the military seem like some kind of generally useful organization.

RIght right. SO they had more justification killing thousan of people in Budapest in 1956 or Czecoslovakia n 1968, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Afghan vivlians they killed

Justification my as.

Far more justification ( internal security ) than millions of dead American left in the wake of their self assumed involvement in South East Asia. You must think you have some kind of argument here. What would America do if Texas decided to join Mexico again? The Afghan situation is far more complex but for now i will say that those lives were mostly due to American funds and the arming of fanatics who wanted to take the country back to the stone age while the Russians supported a progressive party that were actively modernizing the country. The Russians intentions for Afghanistan were far far better for average Afghan's than anything the American government had in mind.

LOL, right as if a country culd come out on top with a major nuclear war. These fanatsies of yours are wuite delusional.I'm curious what coming out on top means exactly, please tell us more sane members.

It means that the USSR have sufficient active, passive and civil defenses to not only destroy any American capacity to continue a long term war ( The Russians prepared for reloading whatever silo's remaining withing days) but had mobile missiles enough to continue the war as long as it took. Their nuclear weapons industry were mostly taken underground and sufficient warheads and missiles are stored to keep fighting. The whole Russian civil infrastructure is constructed and based on the principle of being able to evacuate whoever they can with the rest taking shelter in the shelters built into every factory and tenant block since 1960.

I have made these arguments again and again and you have never even bothered attempting to invalidate the scale of passive Russian civil defenses. Air bursting over cities and mainly aiming at strategic sites in the USSR will kill probably no more than 5 million Russians while the resulting starvation from lack of strategic food and fuel storage in the USA might very well kill tens or hundreds of millions of American citizens. There is NO civil defense organization in the USA that have food or emergency supplies that could even remotely hope to cope with a nuclear war scenario and FEMA had plenty of trouble dealing with a hurricane!

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX
It is a good opportunity only because the system created the poor that is dependent on such opportunities. You could give them the loans to get a education without spending the billions of dollars that creating employment trough the military is based on. It's a dumb idea used by politicians to make the military seem like some kind of generally useful organization.

Well fortunately most people live in the real world. There is no utopian society in real life. WHy doesn't every country lay down their arms and invest in education ? WHy not, because countries have their own interests which need to be protected.

Far more justification ( internal security ) than millions of dead American left in the wake of their self assumed involvement in South East Asia. You must think you have some kind of argument here.

Hmmm, did you get this " millions of dead Americans " from one of your fringe books ? I muust have learnt a different history along with everyone else. Where were these millions of AMericans killed ?
I don't have an argument there is nothing to argue, you are completely wrong.

The Afghan situation is far more complex but for now i will say that those lives were mostly due to American funds and the arming of fanatics who wanted to take the country back to the stone age while the Russians supported a progressive party that were actively modernizing the country. The Russians intentions for Afghanistan were far far better for average Afghan's than anything the American government had in mind.

I find this highly amusing. So having supposed " good intentions " gives caerte blanche for the Russians to massacre entire villages, use chemical weapons etc. A twisted set of morals if ever I've seen any.
NOt to mntion ther intereventions in Prague and Budapest where thousands of civilians were killed. Oh and yes themillions of Russians and Eastern Europenas who died in RUssia's gulags. Hmmmm....need I say more.

The whole Russian civil infrastructure is constructed and based on the principle of being able to evacuate whoever they can with the rest taking shelter in the shelters built into every factory and tenant block since 1960. [/quotte]

Hmm right, except when tehy come back out their industries are destroyed and their farmlards irrdaited. interesting that you'd call that victory.

I have made these arguments again and again and you have never even bothered attempting to invalidate the scale of passive Russian civil defenses.

I hvae on numerous ocassins, your sources were inaccurate as I hvae proven on many occassions.

There is NO civil defense organization in the USA that have food or emergency supplies that could even remotely hope to cope with a nuclear war scenario and FEMA had plenty of trouble dealing with a hurricane!

Well we've yet to see how your vaunted Russians would react to a disaster on the same scale, my bet is not very well at all. We saw how they dealt with Chernobyl