Neon Haze...

I don't know enough physics to talk about this in depth, but I am intrigued...

You mention that the implications of this new theory are immense, so...what *are* the implications, for a layman?

Does this make FTL travel easier, harder, impossible? Does it mean we can manipulate space/time/gravity/mass/inertia? What does all this MEAN to us, in terms of what we can engineer from it?

Thanks!

Originally posted by MrMorden
Does this make FTL travel easier, harder, impossible? Does it mean we can manipulate space/time/gravity/mass/inertia? What does all this MEAN to us, in terms of what we can engineer from it?

Hey there MrMorden,

The implications of loop quantum gravity is so immense that if undeniable proof if is made then it would be the single biggest discovery in history.

Fast than light travel

Actually becomes meaningless when there is no space to travel... sounds like an outlandish statement but in fact if loop quantum gravity is taken to its ultimate conclusion then space-time as we currently perceive it would be meaningless.

However, that said applying the knowledge to the equivalent of our current understanding of the universe with a true understanding of why matter has mass, it would be possible to create objects with as much or as little mass as we liked.

But that would only be possible if we were able to manipulate space-time at the quantum level... this is something we can't do at present. With that power in hand we would literally be able to fold space to create stable wormholes at will and travel further than light could in a short space of time.

Physics would take on a totally different meaning to what it currently means, as we would have a total understanding of matter, Physics would become a quest to find out ways of manipulating and I believe the time of quantum reality physics would rise to the fore front.... the search for ways to manipulate space-time.

Energy... Here is an amazing thought.... since braids not only describe matter but also describe energy, if we were able to weave at the quantum level of space time, we would have the power to create energy straight from the ether.

Limitless free energy.....

If we were able to understand how to read braids accurately within matter and replicate them else where we would have the worlds first fully functional transporters!!

If we were able to understand how to write braids into space time then we could create any object at all in free space from nothing. The worlds first replicater could be created. endless free food and clean water.

If we were able to understand how to write braids into space time we would not only be able to control our own weather but in fact we would have enough power to create whole new worlds from scratch to our own specifications.

In fact we would have the power only bestowed previously to the mythical gods of religion.

Now this is where things start to get a little bit strange.....

You see the ultimate conclusion with loop quantum gravity is that all matter and energy can be thought of as just a bunch of abstract connections on a rather large chart. One connection linking to another all linked at the baseline sheet that is space-time.

The thing is that once you start to think of the whole universe as just a bunch of connections then the braids themselves loose coherence and start to look like data. The kind of data you would find in a quantum computer...

This is where things start to correlate to the predictions of and stories of moving to a new reality or going to higher state or the Mayans or any of the many other current thoughts and feelings around at the moment.

If the braids in space-time are in fact just data then space-time itself doesn't exist and we are all just the results of computation.....

The entire universe could be a program.... you, me, everything that has ever been is not real..... But who or what is running the programme??

Too far out for you??

See I told you all that Physists tend to test way out idea's

Anyone following me on any of this??

NeoN HaZe.


[edit on 17-8-2006 by Neon Haze]

My vote is Neon Haze and the Quantum Loop Braided space time mamma jama- ZERO

REALITY + 1,000


Sorry but the above hypothesised theory forgets one thing, I can touch myself. I can touch a rock, I can touch the rock to myself, I can make the rock into smaller rocks.

The rock therefore exists independant of both space and time, was the rock there yesterday, umm possibly, if I went back to yesterday (if it was possible but its not because there is no such thing as time, therefore there is no "before" time to return to) would the rock be there, yes (assuming again it was physically possible to reverse time).


Time like I said is nothing but an abstract concept, if you were in a room with nothing, and no outside source of judging day light and no watch and no plants just you a big room and a chair. Do you think you could accuratly tell what "time" it was, ever. Would you know when a week went by compared to when just two days ???

Nope, you can only stay awake so long marking dash marks at regular counts, one, one thousand, two one thousand, three one thousand. What about when you went to sleep how would you judge how long you had been asleep for ????

Then "time" does not exist.

What relevance would a space traveller have for time, if when they travelled through space that time would be distorted dependant about gravitonal effects of large bodies or the high rate of velocity and time shifts as they neared the speed of light. Even the timing that they left if based on their home planet would be off, unless equally calibrated to take into the account of the time distoration. So therefor to get a quantitive value for "time" it must exist as an external force that could be measured and then calibrated against your home "time".

But we can not measure the value of "time" now can we. WE can only assume time as a fraction of a period of positional change. In our case the movement of the sun across the planets surface. Thats why we have time "zones" based on geographical location in corelation to where the sun is at that moment.

12 is an arbitrary number, noon could have been 1 or 0 or in fact noon could have been called dob and instead of the number twelve it could have been oge. And lunch time could have been at hagma.

So what if it takes 5,000 clicks from when the sun finaly crosses the horizon until it rises the next morning. If you go to another planet is it still 5,000 clicks ? nope. So then what relevance does your 5,000 clicks have on this other planet ????

So this planet has a civilization and you bring your car there and they tell you yeah to get there you have to drive 100 kimbo's. And you go well my car can do 100 kilometers in 10 clicks, so how far is that. And they look at you and go....... Well its 100 kimbo's away so if you take our car it will take you about 10 noobers to go the 100 kimbo's if you drive at 10 kimbonoobers. Only to find out that 100 kimbos was equal to 1,500 kilometers and it took you more then 2 days to get there when you thought it might only take you what would be equal to 45 minutes in modern day earth time...

Sure you could eventually work out some sort of mathmetical conversion but do you think anyone else on their planet is going to care if still say it in terms of Kilometers and clicks ? nope and better yet if your calculation comes up with some fractional amount of Kimbos that they have never heard of just because you want to keep "your version of time" do you think they are going to go ok, sure 1/4 of 1 kimbo, ??? now whats this quarter ???

So saying the universe is bound together by braids of "time" and space is ignorant.

Because "time" is just something that man made up to understand where he was and when to be somewhere else.

oh and dont bring up the whole , atomic clock thing, because again its an arbitrary concept, they could have chosen the decay rate of a different element. They chose that paticular element because the rate at which it decayed could be calculated to match our notion of a "second". IF our society was based on something equalvilant to 5.5 seconds, then they would have had to find an element that decayed at a rate that could be calculated to this 5.5 second interval standard. Again only an abritrary concept. Could have been something equal to 2.25 of our seconds.



[edit on 17-8-2006 by robertfenix]

You have voted Neon Haze for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

I'm with you, Neon... the implications really *are* staggering. If this is correct, it looks like what we have looked at as "zero point energy" is just the baseline "braiding" of space-time...if we could really understand and manipulate these processes, then we could not only extract energy from the quantum ether, but matter as well, in any form we could imagine (assuming we can manipulate the braiding to a high enough "resolution").

The idea of the Universe as a computational engine has been around for a while, I have seen several articles and books on it...but this is the first time when I have seen a possible *mechanism* for the computation actually described.

Some of the most exciting implications of this relate to consciousness. If space-time, and matter are really only constructs of the quantum ether (essentially "nothingness"), then it almost sounds like the Buddhists have it close to right!

What does this mean for things like ESP, an afterlife, etc? Sounds to me like it makes them more likely to be valid...

Originally posted by robertfenix
My vote is Neon Haze and the Quantum Loop Braided space time mamma jama- ZERO

REALITY + 1,000

Funny, that is exactly what people used to say about almost every revolutionary idea in history. 150 years ago if you told people you would be able to communicate with people anywhere in the world using electrons to send and receive text, images, video, and sound, you would have been laughed out of any University on the planet. Your "reality" is constantly changing, my friend. Try to keep up.

Originally posted by robertfenix
Sorry but the above hypothesised theory forgets one thing, I can touch myself. I can touch a rock, I can touch the rock to myself, I can make the rock into smaller rocks.

The rock therefore exists independant of both space and time, was the rock there yesterday, umm possibly, if I went back to yesterday (if it was possible but its not because there is no such thing as time, therefore there is no "before" time to return to) would the rock be there, yes (assuming again it was physically possible to reverse time).

You are missing the subtlety of this theory. saying you can touch a rock therefore it exists is meaningless, because you don't exist any more than the rock does! It's like saying that you touched the rock in a dream, and then mistaking that for something that "really" happened, because you were there and you felt it.





[edit on 18-8-2006 by MrMorden]

umm sure ok.

The difference is you are supporting a "theory" that has no facts.

While I am just stating the obvious real world, verifiable truth.

I could write a theory that states that in the dinosaures time, plants could re-root themselves in new locations or that Black crows existed along side wolly mammoths.

But since we can not verify whether or not it is true it remains just a hypothesized theory.

We can however verify through independant evaluation that physical substance exists. Since we can interact with other people and things in the enviroment and can observe the reation as well as other people can duplicate the same and get the same result independant of our own self conscienceness. Unlike your suggestion that everything is a dream state.

Dreams are a one sided image where consequences are transparent. The real world consequences are permenant, thus there exists a physical existence.

If you kill someone in your dreams, you can still wake up and verify it was a dream. You kill someone in real life they are dead, the blood is real, the life is gone. At which point you may wish it was a dream, only to never wake up from it.

Regardless if such a thing existed as a braided space time whirly gig, that truely interconnected all things in both space and time.......

I will let you in on a little secret. IF ALL THINGS ONLY EXISTED IN THIS MANNER, THEN YOU COULD NOT CREATE ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF IT TO MANIPULATE AND CONTROL IT AS IT TOO WOULD BE JUST A CONSTRUCT OF THE SAME SPACE TIME BRAID..... DUHHH.

You can not create something that is other then what you are saying everything is composed of.

That is why the theory is ignorant. It clearly states all of everything is interconnected and composed solely of this space time braid. Therefore you would have to magically create outside of the conditional presept that you just drew for yourself some material that does not conform to this space time braid and which is omnipotent to shift/alter/ or move something by which everything in the know universe your are hypothesizing is connected.

There are all kinds of matter that exist in a multitude of various states some of which are probably still unknown to mankind. Such as what truely is dark matter and the various states it can exist in and interact as.

H2O, a solid a gas a liquid an energy source, split and used seperatly an energy source that when used recombines and becomes water again..... As a human I can physically alter the physical phase of H2O by manipulating it in various forms, not only myself but other people at different times can do the same.

Quantum Mechanics does not changes the rules of the physical world, only the probability of its outcome. Ie the idea of ones perception of how the world works can not change the fact that ice will melt into a liquid state when a thermal energy source acts on it. Quantum Mechanics through the use of personal free will states that you may only be able to affect the probability on an occurance. Such as I will meet this person today, today I will not fight with anyone. Today I will get the parking space that I want. Today someone will ask me to lunch. Today someone will say they love me.

These things do not change the rules of the physical world, just the probability of an interaction within the physical world, that you have "willed" into existence. While this shows how all things are possibly interconnected it does not violate the premises that the real world is filled with things of substanance and physicality.

Only that there exist an external relationship that affects all things, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with space and time.

At the highest level Quantum Mechanics pulls into the concept of religon, the basic premise that there may exist a unifying guideline for all things. An external mechanic that can alter or change an existing preset course of what seems to be random occurances.

I suggest that you read all the theories on Quantum Mechanics before you take one moronic loop space time braid theory to be the final world on the nature of the physical world.

No wonder some people drink poison laced kool-aid.



[edit on 18-8-2006 by robertfenix]

Robert please stop posting because its obvious you have no clue what quantum and string theory is. Which is the basis for braided theory.
What your trying to say is the obvious. The world is observable blah blah, I can see touch blah. All perceptions. What braided theory is trying to tell us is whats going on in the quantum level.
mmmkay?

[edit on 18-8-2006 by xEphon]

What are you like 14 ? You can not disregard what is observable and verifiable over what is only hypothesized and intangible.

Even string theory at its core is shakey and makes alot of assumptions by which there is no way to verify.

Your suggestion that I should stop posting is quite facinating. Do you lack the ability to debate logically on the subject, reverting only to say things about a subject that you surely have no idea what you are talking about ?

Until you can challenge anything I have said above to be untrue than I suggest you refrain from making those kinds of statements. Prove to me in black and white that you found something that makes your "concept" more accurate in regards to the representation of the physical world and I will bow to you and your immense knowledge.

However if all you can do is spout nonsense then I suggest you quit before your limited ability to have a logical discussion becomes even more the apparent.

Yeah im 14 good one considering your the one trying to dabate a theory which is an offshot of quantum theory. Which most physicist accept. Dont talk to me about "observational truths" since the basis of both string and quantum theory is the discovery of underlying truths. HENCE A THEORY
Just because it doesnt fit nicely into your world view doesnt mean it has no merit.
Your a troll through and through.

Have a nice day.


[edit on 18-8-2006 by xEphon]

Originally posted by xEphon
since the basis of both string and quantum theory is the measurement of underlying truths.

And what underlying truth is it that you are referring to ? You can only measure something that exists in substance or has a physical representation that causes an effect such as energy or mass.

You can not take measurements of theories, concepts or factless ideas.

Robertfenix,

I'm not a physist nor do I claim to even be an amatuer studier of it, I simply like to read up on it and absorb what I can.

You posted about rocks and the difference in time between diffrent planets....isnt that just purely human perception? I mean if time is interconnected with matter and energy then surely time would change as matter and energy change?

A planet is bigger, the time taken to complete one full rotation is larger.

Originally posted by devilwasp

You posted about rocks and the difference in time between diffrent planets....isnt that just purely human perception? I mean if time is interconnected with matter and energy then surely time would change as matter and energy change?

Right, time would change, therefore time can not be a unifying theory as it is only a concept, there is no such thing as "time", it is based on a locality due to some positional reference like the sun.

Time is not the same in two different places, so therefore "time" can not be used as a value to determine the existence of anything.

Ok, my thoughts on this... even if this theory turns out to be true, its cool but I think we're jumping the gun that it could change our lives. Sure everything thats been said could be possible if we could manipulate at the quantum level, but the fact is we cant and i dunno if thats gonna change anytime soon but im guessing not, so...

Also robertfenix, learn to think beyond the simple reality around you, or if your just a troll piss off

Originally posted by robertfenix
Right, time would change, therefore time can not be a unifying theory as it is only a concept, there is no such thing as "time", it is based on a locality due to some positional reference like the sun.

No its due to human perception ,thats psycological not physical.
The actual passage of time is physical, but the measuring of it is psycological. You cant deny that time passes even if you dont measure it.
Yes no?

Time is not the same in two different places, so therefore "time" can not be used as a value to determine the existence of anything.

No the time of DAY or NIGHT isnt the same, but "TIME" or more so the passage of time is the same in two places. Except in black holes I believe but I havent read much up about them.

Originally posted by devilwasp

The actual passage of time is physical, but the measuring of it is psycological. You cant deny that time passes even if you dont measure it.

What ? Time does not "pass", how can time pass if you dont measure it ???? Your statement makes no sense. For something to pass you have to have a start and a finish. How would you know you finished ? its arbitrary, how would you know when you started if you did not "measure" it when you started.

There is not a universal "time" of all things.

There is only a rate of change, whos rate is independant of all other rates except those of the same kind.

The rate of decay is different from one elemental atom to the next depending on a variety of factors in the atomic construction.

Have you ever seen two people that are the same "Age" yet one looks a lot older ??? or does every 40 year old person have exactly the same look to them the same amount of wrinkles the same health problems the same sagging skin.... Come on says yes say every person of every age looks identical in physical qualities at the same age... because you would be wrong... and that is because an indiviuals biological "clock" all run at various rates. Just because on the calender you should be the same age does not mean that the physical condition of your bodies are the same age. Thus "age" and therefore time is not a constant external source, force or universal component that effects the physical world.


And how can you possibly measure something psychologically ?? Measurement is a factor of Physical susbstance. You dont measure time, time has no mass or quantitative value. Time does pass at a set rate of 1 unit of time per second.

Time is a unit of measurement, based on an agreed concept linking the passage of the sun and dividing what we consider a "Day" into passages of hours, minutes, seconds, nanoseconds etc.

"time" is only used as a reference to describe a rate of something.

Originally posted by devilwasp
but "TIME" or more so the passage of time is the same in two places.

nope wrong again, if 12 hours passes on Mars where is the sun compared to where it is on earth ????

after 3 days on mars with your "earth clock" where do you think the sun would be at 3pm on your earth clock ???

Do you know ??

And the following day, do you think the sun would be in the same position at 3pm on your "earth clock".

What relevance would your "Earth clock" have then on Mars, if the "time" on your watch was never the same, ie never coresponding to the same point of the day night time day time, lunch dinner etc. Your time would have no meaning at all.

Although I've read the paper carefully, I did not understand anything. I am not a physics professor, but I have a basic understanding of quantum mechanics (developed by my personal hunger for knowledge). I just did not get what this paper meant. Anyone care to elaborate?

Thanks Neon Haze, for posting this. Very interesting stuff.
And thanks robertfenix, for sharing your input.

The conversation/debate on this is very compelling. I'm getting more out of that then I ever could have than by just reading the linked paper, which is admittedly way over my head.

My observation: Neon Haze not ignorant. Robertfenix not a troll.

I always get confused about the time issue. Yes a day on Planet X would not necessarily be the same length as an Earth day. But if I took a stopwatch to Planet X, 60 sec. is still 60 sec., yes? Much like if I took a ruler to Planet X, I could still measure lengths in centimeters (or inches) even if the natives of Planet X had no idea what those terms meant, no?

I mean, there was some sort of interval between the Big Bang (assuming there was one) and the period in which humans were capable of "inventing" time, right? So these periods, intervals, whatever, exist independently of our observation of them. We choose to refer to our time intervals as seconds, minutes, months, etc. as a universally agreed upon standard. But the intervals between occurances exist, much like the length, mass, etc. of material objects exist whether or not we are here to measure them.

That's where I get lost. "Time" passes whether we measure it or not (and regardless of the terminology or methodology we use to describe or calculate the measurement), much like we don't have to measure the size of an object for it to exist. Maybe?

One side seems to be saying there's no such thing as physical matter. The other seems to state there's no time.

Speaking of time, lunch hour's over. Gotta get some work done. Not that it matters...