I was just wondering how anyone could support partial-birth abortion, a practice that is thankfully banned. Any support for something that close to infanticide puzzles and disturbs me greatly

I've not heard this term.

Is it when they stick a needle in the head of the baby as it emerges?
I believe under some circumstances they do that in China where a baby can not be murdered until it has taken it's first breath.

Is this what you mean?

is it banned?

I thought it waas in the process of possibly being banned in the USA

and to be honest, I support it in certain circumstances, eg danger to the mothers life.. If you need to abort during the second trimester, then this is the only procedure that can be used safely.

[Edited on 1-11-2003 by mulberryblueshimmer]

If the baby is at the point where it can exist outside the womb without help, that is when it is infanticide. Also, when it is done, it can actually harm the mother, due to the body treating it as waste that must be expunged quickly and immediately.

errrrrrrr dont most babies need to be at least 8 months along to exist outside the womb without help?

Earlier than that they need to be in humidicribs because their lungs arent as developed.

If you two ladies want proper debate on abortion i'll be more than happy to set it up.

Partial birth, or properly called Dialation and Extraction, is a procedure where the butcher (some call them doctors, I don't) dialates the mother, turns the baby backwards, and then pulls the baby out until all that is remaining inside is the head. The back of the head is then punctured, the brain scrambled, then sucked out of the skull, and the body tossed into the trash can.

There is no deadline on this procedure, it can be done up until birth.

As you can probably determine without reading, there is no legitimate need of this procedure in reference to the life of the mother. As a matter of fact, the abortion is issue has nothing to do with the safety of the mother as that has never been the issue, as it has always been an option in that regard. Today's societal issue is whether or not a woman has the right to murder the unborn for selfish reasons. Regardless, D&X is a most hideous procedure. Not that injecting salt water and buring them up, or some other poison and killing them, or dismembering them and then allowing the other to miscarriage is a wonderful thing either, but the fact that D&X is a late term procedure, and is done sometimes hours before the child would have been born anyway, pretty sick.

I must admit... with much trepidation that I agree with TC on this. While I am not going to get into the murky waters of morality and ethics in abortion I will say that D&X is a wretched procedure.
JB1 is even in agreement. So Libs and Neocons can get alone on some issues huh? Though I guess this is the only one TC and I see eye to eye on.

I'm glad I read this after, and not before lunch... I would have lost my appetite....

I beleive that life begins at conception and anything done by a person intentionally to kill, do away with, make go away, whatever, is Murder.

We agree on more than just this, Observer, we just ususally don't talk about those things.

By the way, I am not a NeoConservatists, but a traditional conservatist, IAW the constitution, the Bill of Rights and the KJV. As I've always been told, keep it simple, stupid!

Originally posted by observer
I must admit... with much trepidation that I agree with TC on this. While I am not going to get into the murky waters of morality and ethics in abortion I will say that D&X is a wretched procedure.
JB1 is even in agreement. So Libs and Neocons can get alone on some issues huh? Though I guess this is the only one TC and I see eye to eye on.

I've found few, of any stripe, that can stump for this procedure.
As is the case with all aspects of debate that the Far Right champions, the worst case is often argued to be the prevailing case, so that the demonization of whatever they are anti is complete.

Should a women have the right to choose? Absolute & unequivacally hell yes. Should it be legislate? Yes. Should abortion as birth control warrant automatic steralization? Yes.

That was an interesting last point you mmade there BT. Life does start at conception, how is life a day in the womb any different from a life 80years walking? It doesn't, a life is a life and to murder a life even before it has a chance to take its first breath is reprehensible.

Partial birth abortion is wrong. A women does have the right to choose. She has the right to choose not to sleep around. She has the right to choose birth control pills, she has the right to choose condoms. Sometimes these things are used improperly or they fail, she has the right to choose adoption.

If you want to support abortion in the case of accidental pregnancy or rape, then take the morning after pill or get a pregnancy test. Abort the embryo/fetus early on in development. Partial birth abortion should never have to enter into the picture. I don't see how a woman can go months and months without knowing she is pregnant.

Someone give me a scenario where a woman needs to wait until the fetus is 8 months into development to have it aborted.

I don't think the issue of this thread is about the legalities of all abortion, but of partial birth abortions. Just because someone supports capital punishment, doesn't mean they think having a criminal ripped apart by a pack of wild dogs is suitable way to go about doing it. And just because someone supports abortion, doesn't mean they think that partial birth abortions is a suitable way to do it either.

As soon as you say something is, it isnt - Lao Tse


remember that the next time you start moralizing, schmucks...

Nothing is true, everything is permissable.

I disagree with those that believe birth prevention is bad, a condom, diaghram, or pill that prevents pregnancy is fine, there was never life in the first place, and who is to say that the life would have occured? When life is created is when it is wrong to kill it, if the life was never created than no life can occur.

But the issue was partial birth abortion, and I am pleased to see that some pro choice people see partial birth abortion as the crime it is. Hopefully they will start thinking even more about the value of an unborn child.

It might be out of my hands, but it was never really in them in the first place. Promoting thought and discourse was my intended aim.

Originally posted by Voice_of Doom
As soon as you say something is, it isnt - Lao Tse


remember that the next time you start moralizing, schmucks...

Nothing is true, everything is permissable.

Just because some dead guy said something long ago, doesn't make it true - Me, about 10 seconds ago

Remember that Schmuck.

I Agree with it,but under certain circumstances.Like if the woman was raped,and she coudnt raise the baby on her own,or coudnt afford it,or if she is too young,i think thay could do it then,but if the child is 6-8 months already,and if thay dont want it,i think thay should give it up for adoption to some parents that cant have children.

I can almost empathize with a girl that doesnt want to have a baby but I think abortion is wrong.

People feel like they dont have any choice. I read something that if teh father was supportive that most people wouldnt do this.

On the extreme end. I dont understand how someone can perform hundreds of these proceedures and live with themselves.

There are probably hundreds, if not thousands of these "doctors" all over the US.

Last girlfriend told me she was a pro choicer. SO I made sure I always had a condom, rythem method and or some other kind of birth control. I never had a condom break. The whole situation was terrifying and I hope that if I ever got another girlfriend, that she would choose life (hypothetically) or I would choose to remain celibate.

It is good to talk about these things with your girlfriend. That way you know her becoming pregnant is not an issue for debate.

[Edited on 3-11-2003 by websuspect]

ok here's something to throw into the mix.


what if a girl is raped and gets pregnant and WANTS an abortion but the government of the country she lives in doesnt support abortions and wont let her leave the country to get one. While the case is on appeal the baby is maturing beyond the first trimester, making it impossible for a conventional abortion?

what then?