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posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 02:36 PM
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queenannie38

Thank you for the compliment. It's very encouraging whenever I know I have written a message that is understood by the readers, and that may help to stretch their understanding a bit more.




posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud
SO where is god the parent? At least my parents are here and have taught me things. God hasn't been to see me or tell me anything, and why should I believe the people who preach about god when NONE of them have spoke to or seen god. We are just supposed to take you at your word?
Why is it that when god speaks to someone, he/she/it can only speak to ONE person at a time and that person has to tell everyone else what god said? Why not tell the whole world at the same time and stop all this pissing about?
G


God speaks directly to people only rarely. Usually He sends His messengers/angels to deliver His instructions, but even the angels don't speak, nor appear, to many people. Now, only God can say WHY He does things the way He does, but I think the reason that few people have been "visited" by His messengers is because few people heed the messages already delivered.

If a person wishes to see and hear the Divine they should follow the teachings which will purify them enough so that their eyes and ears will be able to see and hear the things of the Spirit. Those who are unwilling to do the work required to purify themselves are unworthy to receive the Divine, and should not be surprised that they have none of the sublime experiences that those who have put forth the effort are blessed with.
If you wish to see the holy you must BECOME HOLY!

[edit on 18-8-2006 by SkyWay]



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by SkyWay

God speaks directly to people only rarely. Usually He sends His messengers/angels to deliver His instructions, but even the angels don't speak, nor appear, to many people. Now, only God can say WHY He does things the way He does, but I think the reason that few people have been "visited" by His messengers is because few people heed the messages already delivered.

If a person wishes to see and hear the Divine they should follow the teachings which will purify them enough so that their eyes and ears will be able to see and hear the things of the Spirit. Those who are unwilling to do the work required to purify themselves are unworthy to receive the Divine, and should not be surprised that they have none of the sublime experiences that those who have put forth the effort are blessed with.
If you wish to see the holy you must BECOME HOLY!

[edit on 18-8-2006 by SkyWay]

To start with the 2nd paragraph first - There is the problem right there, so because I dont believe I'm not worthy. Hmmm you'd think I would be the target audience as the believers have a bias towards the divinity.
First para - First off why does god speak rarely Oh I forgot ONLY GOD KNOWS why he does things. Well if only god knows then why should I believe someone who presumes to know what god wants? Also why does an omni whatever god need messengers/angels if he's omni whatever? Oh I forgot again ONLY GOD KNOWS.

Well until 'god' decides to make itself known to the whole world personally I personally will not be swayed by the 'rantings' of anyone.

G



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud
To start with the 2nd paragraph first - There is the problem right there, so because I dont believe I'm not worthy. Hmmm you'd think I would be the target audience as the believers have a bias towards the divinity.
First para - First off why does god speak rarely Oh I forgot ONLY GOD KNOWS why he does things. Well if only god knows then why should I believe someone who presumes to know what god wants? Also why does an omni whatever god need messengers/angels if he's omni whatever? Oh I forgot again ONLY GOD KNOWS.

Well until 'god' decides to make itself known to the whole world personally I personally will not be swayed by the 'rantings' of anyone.

G


LOL! Talk about ranting! Whew!

The reason I say only God knows the reasons for the things He does is because I cannot read His mind. You seem rather incredulous at such a position, but think about it a little more. After all, we can't even say with certainty why other people do some of the thngs they do. It's difficult enough trying to figure out the thinking of people....God is infinitely more difficult to understand.

As far as worthiness or unworthiness is concerned...it would be an injustice to bestow the rewards that some people have worked for on those who have done nothing. It is inappropriate to expect the Holy to reveal Himself to those who are evil. There have to be standards.


[edit on 18-8-2006 by SkyWay]



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 05:12 PM
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Yes god is much more difficult to understand because its a non existant entity. Just because you believe in god does not make it true. Nothing but the appearance of god to all with convince me otherwise. Why should I expect otherwise? Just because your so willing to give up all to 'god' why should I without better convincing? I mean if your god created me and knows what I will do then he knows that I NEED CONVINCING. Why doesn't he convince me - because its BS


G



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud
Yes god is much more difficult to understand because its a non existant entity. Just because you believe in god does not make it true. Nothing but the appearance of god to all with convince me otherwise. Why should I expect otherwise? Just because your so willing to give up all to 'god' why should I without better convincing? I mean if your god created me and knows what I will do then he knows that I NEED CONVINCING. Why doesn't he convince me - because its BS
G


What I find interesting in your last post is that you have convinced yourself of something you can't prove. There is no proof that God does not exist. So your conviction that He is nonexistent is a negative form of faith. Your approach is the same as a fundamentalist. LOL!
That's the irony of it. You demand proof yet your position is based on faith! LOL!



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 07:21 PM
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I will put in on this one:
First, I am not Christian, however to quote something biblical, God helps those who help themselves.
But the other comes from Mahattma Ghandi, he was asked does he believe in a supreme being and he stated, Yes I do. I feel it every where I am, no matter where I look. It is all around us, permeating everything.
No matter you have to have faith. When you are walking down living life, the only thing you ultimately have, is your faith. Without faith, there can be no hope.



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by SkyWay

This discipline allows freewill but at the same time "enlightens" those with freewill on how to excercise that freewill wisely.
If a person ignores Divine Guidance, then he will bring suffering upon himself, and God will allow the suffering to befall that person so that he may learn the better way to live is to heed the instruction of our Divine Parent.


[edit on 18-8-2006 by SkyWay]


Thank you for your reply.

However, I cannot bring myself to believe that God would punish us for using the free moral choice that she/he included as part of creation. How wholesome is knowledge gained through fear, how good is good done through duty alone. I agree that evil and suffering result from certain moral choices (not as punishment) but think that they will be defeated through spiritual growth. As the theologian Irenaeus argued, evil and suffering are part of our 'soul making' process, allowing us to develop good such as sympathy and compassion, by way of them we move towards perfection. I do not deny that divine guidance through many forms of revelation is part of the world, but we are free to take or leave that guidance without fear of divine retrebution.

I know that a very persuasive argument when considering the suffering in the world could be that the end does not justify the means - but I believe that we are only aware of a very small part of the whole.



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by Winefried

Originally posted by SkyWay

This discipline allows freewill but at the same time "enlightens" those with freewill on how to excercise that freewill wisely.
If a person ignores Divine Guidance, then he will bring suffering upon himself, and God will allow the suffering to befall that person so that he may learn the better way to live is to heed the instruction of our Divine Parent.


[edit on 18-8-2006 by SkyWay]


Thank you for your reply.

However, I cannot bring myself to believe that God would punish us for using the free moral choice that she/he included as part of creation. How wholesome is knowledge gained through fear, how good is good done through duty alone. I agree that evil and suffering result from certain moral choices (not as punishment) but think that they will be defeated through spiritual growth. As the theologian Irenaeus argued, evil and suffering are part of our 'soul making' process, allowing us to develop good such as sympathy and compassion, by way of them we move towards perfection. I do not deny that divine guidance through many forms of revelation is part of the world, but we are free to take or leave that guidance without fear of divine retrebution.

I know that a very persuasive argument when considering the suffering in the world could be that the end does not justify the means - but I believe that we are only aware of a very small part of the whole.


You're very welcome. I took a bit long to reply because I am just learning how to navigate this website. I've discovered that I can easily locate the threads I have posted on by clicking on the myATS button at the top of the page. I had been trying to do it by memory and couldn't recall all of the thread titles and domains of the various threads (such as this one) on which I had posted messages.

Now, back to the topic.

When you say above that suffering will be defeated through spiritual growth, I believe you are saying something very similar to my statement above that the method of discipline which God employs results in enlightenment as to how to excercise our freewill in a wise manner.

When spiritual growth occurs a person is able to better distinguish between moral choices and selects the better ones which, in turn, defeat suffering, as you put it. But, this making the right moral choices is much the same thing as excercising our freewill wisely as I stated in my previous post to you. What I wish to stress here is that when we acquire spiritual growth, and guide our freewill with wisdom, we will discover that we are doing those things which our Divine Parent instructed us to do from the beginning. We will have learned, through the disciplining lessons of experience, that God was right, and that we could have spared ourselves much trouble if we had heeded His instructions,
but some of us have to learn the hard way that God's Truth sets us free.



[edit on 18-8-2006 by SkyWay]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 02:16 AM
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If you read the Bible, you would know Jesus won't return untill the anti-christ is here.

It says, the anti-christ will have his evil helpers, prepare the world for a ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT. Once we have a OWG, the president or king of that OWG, will be the anit-christ. That is when Jesus returns.

Right now, we are pretty far from a OWG, but, its already in the works.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 01:49 PM
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Wouldn't now be a good time for God to show up and help his people........


i see him working miracles every day?

is the glass half empty or half full?



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud
Yes god is much more difficult to understand because its a non existant entity. Just because you believe in god does not make it true. Nothing but the appearance of god to all with convince me otherwise. Why should I expect otherwise? Just because your so willing to give up all to 'god' why should I without better convincing? I mean if your god created me and knows what I will do then he knows that I NEED CONVINCING. Why doesn't he convince me - because its BS


G


God appearing to you would not change your view either for your presupposition holds that there is no God. You would attribute the appearance of God to something else. You would claim, most likely, that your empirical worldview has the answer as to why you think you just saw God.

Yet your empirical worldview cannot prove anything though for you have no explanation for how you learned the word "convince". You cannot account for knowledge outside of God.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by sdcigarpig
I will put in on this one:
First, I am not Christian, however to quote something biblical, God helps those who help themselves.
But the other comes from Mahattma Ghandi, he was asked does he believe in a supreme being and he stated, Yes I do. I feel it every where I am, no matter where I look. It is all around us, permeating everything.
No matter you have to have faith. When you are walking down living life, the only thing you ultimately have, is your faith. Without faith, there can be no hope.


Nice thought, but sorry, "God helps those who help themselves" is NOT stated anywhere in Scripture.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by tommy1979
I'm was a roman catholic for the first 20 yrs of my life. So i'm aware that many people especially christians await the return of Christ. I don't want to hear about the " end of days", or nuclear war, etc..... How about the everyday misery and suffering in the world. The millions of depressed people, hungry, alone, etc. Wouldn't now be a good time for God to show up and help his people........


Tommy, great question. So what are you personally doing about it?

Is it the fault of God that people are depressed, hungry and alone?

Have you ever been to a fast food trash bin and seen all the food wasted? Does God waste it or do people do it?

My niece works for a high end fashion store. When a $400 leather jacket gets damaged what do they do with it? You would think they would reduce its price and sell it but that's not what they do with it. They SHRED it! They don't even give it to the poor or homeless shelters. So is it then Gods fault that many people are without shelter or clothes?

Kids watch MTV and think that being a punk is cool. If girls are like the sleazes on MTV rap videos then guys will like them and they will be popular. This mindset usually ends in drug abuse, violence and unwanted pregnancies which leads to abortions which leads to depressed people which in turn leads to more drugs to escape the lonliness and depression...phew, see the ugly cycle? Is this then the fault of God or people?

People cry......" I want FREE WILL and FREE CHOICE. Leave us alone God!"

God says....."Very well, I shall give it to you!"

People then cry....."Why God have you done this to me, where are your blessings?!?"



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by SkyWay

What I find interesting in your last post is that you have convinced yourself of something you can't prove. There is no proof that God does not exist. So your conviction that He is nonexistent is a negative form of faith. Your approach is the same as a fundamentalist. LOL!
That's the irony of it. You demand proof yet your position is based on faith! LOL!

First off I know that there is a possibility that god does exist, its just so highly highly improbable that it likely to be untrue. Turning the tables - there is no proof that god does exist so YOUR conviction the he IS existant is also a negative form of faith. My position is not however based on faith but probability so no irony there. Also where does it say non believers cant have faith in something?


Originally posted by UnrealZA
God appearing to you would not change your view either for your presupposition holds that there is no God. You would attribute the appearance of God to something else. You would claim, most likely, that your empirical worldview has the answer as to why you think you just saw God.

Yet your empirical worldview cannot prove anything though for you have no explanation for how you learned the word "convince". You cannot account for knowledge outside of God.

While I hold the view that a diety is nonexistant doesn't mean that I could not be convinced otherwise. I've held a variety of views that I have changed when new evidence comes up. So why should this be different if the evidence is overwhelming? But as there is virtually no evidence other than the rantings of some person who usually has a bias towards the thing he's ranting about I will continue to view god as nonexistant.


G



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud
First off I know that there is a possibility that god does exist, its just so highly highly improbable that it likely to be untrue. Turning the tables - there is no proof that god does exist so YOUR conviction the he IS existant is also a negative form of faith. My position is not however based on faith but probability so no irony there. Also where does it say non believers cant have faith in something?
G


In your first post you declared that God is nonexistent, now you suggest that he probably doesn't exist. That is a BIG difference. Your first position was that of an atheist, but now it is agnostic.

Shihulud, to be a Christian involves faith, but it is a positive faith because it is a belief that God does exist rather than a negative form of faith which believes that God does not exist. Both are expressions of faith because they both involve belief that is not backed by proof.

My faith is based on reason, as well as on the Bible. By this I mean that even if I had never read the Bible I would still believe in God on the basis of reason since, it is more reasonable to believe in God than to not believe when we observe the design of the universe. To me it is totally absurd to suggest that a complex and infinite universe just accidentally arranged and calibrated itself into the delicate balance and harmony that sustains it. The evidence is overwhelming and all around us, and inevitabley leads any reasonable minded person to the conclusion that there is an intelligence behind the structure and functioning of the universe.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by tommy1979
How about the everyday misery and suffering in the world. The millions of depressed people, hungry, alone, etc. Wouldn't now be a good time for God to show up and help his people........


God has been showing up for people throughout history and helping them get through problems and misery and suffering.

One thing that people need to understand is that the way this world is, is a result of mankind choosing to reject God. We are living in and being shown and hopefully really intellectually grasping what a world with man trying to run it is like. It's full of the misery and problems we see all around. God is still in control but He has given us the freedom to "experiment" with building a peaceful world, and we prove it over and over again that we cannot.

satan was the first to say to God you don't know what you are doing, I could do your job and do it better, I don't need you, you are wrong in how you operate, and I can be God.

satan tempted man with the same lie, and man chose to believe the lie.

This time from Adam and Eve to the present, is proving for all of eternity that God does know what He is doing.

God has also established a timetable to bring this period of suffering to an end. There are some clues in the Bible that elude to the fact that we are close to that time now. So people want God to do something, He has and is and could be getting ready to bring suffering to it's end and finally we will be at peace.

This is going to be blunt but here goes, you will not find out the truth of salvation and what is really going on in the catholic church. You tried for 20 years and it didn't happen.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by dbrandt]



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by SkyWay

Originally posted by shihulud
First off I know that there is a possibility that god does exist, its just so highly highly improbable that it likely to be untrue. Turning the tables - there is no proof that god does exist so YOUR conviction the he IS existant is also a negative form of faith. My position is not however based on faith but probability so no irony there. Also where does it say non believers cant have faith in something?
G


In your first post you declared that God is nonexistent, now you suggest that he probably doesn't exist. That is a BIG difference. Your first position was that of an atheist, but now it is agnostic.

Shihulud, to be a Christian involves faith, but it is a positive faith because it is a belief that God does exist rather than a negative form of faith which believes that God does not exist. Both are expressions of faith because they both involve belief that is not backed by proof.

My faith is based on reason, as well as on the Bible. By this I mean that even if I had never read the Bible I would still believe in God on the basis of reason since, it is more reasonable to believe in God than to not believe when we observe the design of the universe. To me it is totally absurd to suggest that a complex and infinite universe just accidentally arranged and calibrated itself into the delicate balance and harmony that sustains it. The evidence is overwhelming and all around us, and inevitabley leads any reasonable minded person to the conclusion that there is an intelligence behind the structure and functioning of the universe.

Me agnostic ha ha ha, just because I think there is a possibility ( a mathematical possibility) that there is a god doesnt mean I believe in one LOL. Just because there is the possibility of something does NOT mean it is true or ever was or will be true. Didnt the words ' highly highly improbable' give it away. No for me god is a fantasy, a myth, fable.
Most things involve faith to an extent but to suggest that a belief in a diety is a positive thing is nigh on insanity. Everything has postive and negative aspects including your belief in god. Because you believe in god your predisposed to discard any information that goes against your religious views and therefore has a negative effect. Its the same with my views which are also based on logic and reason - I can see the world around us being created WITHOUT a god, I see evolution as being the closest to truth, I know that the world would go on without religion and god( myself and others are living proof).
If say all religious people were wiped out in a plague/comet whatever and there were only atheists (with all technologies intact) left do you really think god/gods would resurface in the population as religion? If I had anything to do with it NEVER

G



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud
Me agnostic ha ha ha, just because I think there is a possibility ( a mathematical possibility) that there is a god doesnt mean I believe in one LOL. Just because there is the possibility of something does NOT mean it is true or ever was or will be true. Didnt the words ' highly highly improbable' give it away. No for me god is a fantasy, a myth, fable.
Most things involve faith to an extent but to suggest that a belief in a diety is a positive thing is nigh on insanity. Everything has postive and negative aspects including your belief in god. Because you believe in god your predisposed to discard any information that goes against your religious views and therefore has a negative effect. Its the same with my views which are also based on logic and reason - I can see the world around us being created WITHOUT a god, I see evolution as being the closest to truth, I know that the world would go on without religion and god( myself and others are living proof).
If say all religious people were wiped out in a plague/comet whatever and there were only atheists (with all technologies intact) left do you really think god/gods would resurface in the population as religion? If I had anything to do with it NEVER

G


Why do you laugh at my calling you agnostic? You say there is a possibility that there is a God though there is no proof that you can see. That makes you agnostic. Atheists do not admit even the possibility that there is a God....they assert that there is no God. You may choose not to believe in God, but you admit that there is a possibility that He exists.

Belief in an intelligent Supreme Being is the the most logical, reasonable, and positive view that any human being can embrace. Obviously intelligence exists at various levels in the creatures we know about in this part of the universe which we inhabit. It is logical to assume, therefore, that there are probably other intelligences,
above the ones on Earth, that we have no
knowledge of because of our terrestrial limitations.

It is also Logical to assume that, since there is such an extensive ascending chain of consciousness and intelligence, there is a Being who is the most intelligent of all. Indeed there is, He is God. But God is not merely the ultimate expression of a chain of intelligent awareness, He is, rather, the Origin of Intelligence itself, from which all creatures, known and unknown, derive their portion.To assume, as you do, that there is no such supremely aware and intelligent Being is illogical to an extreme degree because it is inconsistent with the pattern that is evident all around us.

You preach logic, but you practice the opposite! LOL!

[edit on 21-8-2006 by SkyWay]



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by SkyWay

Belief in an intelligent Supreme Being is the the most logical, reasonable, and positive view that any human being can embrace. Obviously intelligence exists at various levels in the creatures we know about in this part of the universe which we inhabit. It is logical to assume, therefore, that there are probably other intelligences,above the ones on Earth, that we have no knowledge of because of our terrestrial limitations.

Yes it is logical to assume that there are intelligences out there somewhere but belief in a supreme being is not very logical or reasonable, there is no need for one. And no I'm still not an agnostic, I also assert that god(s) dont exist. Although I say there is a possibility that god exists, it just doesnt in this universe so for all intents and purposes god does not exist. Simple


It is also Logical to assume that, since there is such an extensive ascending chain of consciousness and intelligence, there is a Being who is the most intelligent of all. Indeed there is, He is God. But God is not merely the ultimate expression of a chain of intelligent awareness, He is, rather, the Origin of Intelligence itself, from which all creatures, known and unknown, derive their portion.To assume, as you do, that there is no such supremely aware and intelligent Being is illogical to an extreme degree because it is inconsistent with the pattern that is evident all around us. You preach logic, but you practice the opposite! LOL!
[edit on 21-8-2006 by SkyWay]

Where do you get this ascending chain of conciousness and intelligence from? What pattern shows that there is a supreme being? Where do you get this information from? Your logic has lost me - First its OK to assume that there are intelligent life forms everywhere but not OK to assume that there is NO supreme being - where's the logic in that? Lets reverse it and assume there is a god but no intelligent life anywhere - is that logic?


G




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