Police state, only way to be safe

john who installs the leadership of the 3? i dont remember voting for any of them. i think george picks. maybe im wrong but i just dont remembe voting for the head of the cia ,nsa, or fbi last election , and i doubt ill get the chance to vote this one.

You want to make things so complicated. The only way we the people can truely control what we want is to go private. You pay for what you want. You pay a company to do a certian thing, whether it be border control, healthcare, etc. Dont give the power to government. If anything, pay for it when you want. If the company providing the service doesn't get enough money, then obviously people didn't want it enough.

Supply and demand controls the system. You have to understand, you get what you pay for though. If the majority of people don't think border control is important enough to support financially enough to stay in business, well thats it then no border control. You get what you pay for, nothing more and nothing less. Thats what free enterprise was made to do. You hire, you fire, but you never hand your power over completely. You still hold your power because you support them directly. The problem with government is that they force you to pay. Taxes force you to pay, rather then let you choose what you do or dont want to pay for.

The solution is to limit government completely to the bare essentials, making sure peoples rights stay in tact. The being able to own a gun, free speech, etc. those are the rights that government will protect, not your security of healthcare or anything else. Private sector will take care of that. And the private sector CANNOT take anything forcefully. They aren't government, they are only a business.

People hold the power, and will forever, so long as they realize it.

Originally posted by redmage

Originally posted by Nihilist Fiend
You keep speaking of this Big Brother controlled by the people think. What on earth are you trying to get at.

I think that would be the "Absurdum" in "Reductio ad Absurdum".

While I admit that it's not a tactic used (quite so convincingly) here very often, I believe the "point" here is that it seems like, for some people, it would take actually voting on (or the existance of) such a pannel of "watchers" for many to actually consider taking notice of what the government has been doing; instead of taking the attitude that "it hasn't happened to me yet so it must not be happening" in regards to our freedoms and liberties being infringed upon.

With the way things have been going lately, I'm actually kinda surprised that there were not a few people jumping at the idea.

I've seen quite a few "name one liberty you've lost" and "is the N.W.O. really that bad?" type threads lately.

[edit on 8/14/06 by redmage]

Why doesn't everyone just speak clearly and to the point? What is all of this double-speak for?

If you don't like government spying on its citizens, then just say it! Address the issue on its merits and not through crazy logic patterns.

What if the original poster thought how he posted? What if he was sincere in his speech? You have now offered him a chance to recant on all of the bizarre claims he has made. Now all he would have to say is "just kidding", and he no longer has to defend his point of view.

Let the man say what he wants, and don't put words (or intentions for that matter) in his mouth.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Nihilist Fiend]

Originally posted by grimreaper797
You want to make things so complicated. The only way we the people can truely control what we want is to go private. You pay for what you want. You pay a company to do a certian thing, whether it be border control, healthcare, etc. Dont give the power to government. If anything, pay for it when you want. If the company providing the service doesn't get enough money, then obviously people didn't want it enough.

Supply and demand controls the system. You have to understand, you get what you pay for though. If the majority of people don't think border control is important enough to support financially enough to stay in business, well thats it then no border control. You get what you pay for, nothing more and nothing less. Thats what free enterprise was made to do. You hire, you fire, but you never hand your power over completely. You still hold your power because you support them directly. The problem with government is that they force you to pay. Taxes force you to pay, rather then let you choose what you do or dont want to pay for.

The solution is to limit government completely to the bare essentials, making sure peoples rights stay in tact. The being able to own a gun, free speech, etc. those are the rights that government will protect, not your security of healthcare or anything else. Private sector will take care of that. And the private sector CANNOT take anything forcefully. They aren't government, they are only a business.

People hold the power, and will forever, so long as they realize it.

So if you hold none of the money you are up a creek?

to make an agency to watch and agency to take care of the problems and watch the other agency, too complicated. Make one government, protects the rights, nothing more. Everything else is private business. Private business can be shut down at anytime by the people. All they have to do is stop supporting it and the people quit. That business will be gone within the week.

gamer: I have one simple phrase for you, and although you may not believe it, deep down I have personally noticed it is true------"The silent majority". They may not say it, but thats only because they are waiting for some one to say it for them. They cant find the words, so they are waiting for the person or people who can.

ill defend the point of view i started. just admit that big brother is going to get stronger and the ideals of it you fear , are going to come true. how can we ease the pain is my question. remember MOST americans care most about safety and security first .
so the power the goverment has to watch over us is only going to grow. no one will admit that big brother is already watching us. either its for the better or for the worse. which do you chose.



[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

Originally posted by Nihilist Fiend

What if the original poster thought how he posted? What if he was sincere in his speech? You have now offered him a chance to recant on all of the bizarre claims he has made.

He already explained it before I posted, people just weren't reading it because they were too "fired up".

Read the quotes I chose in my first 2 posts.

Let the man say what he wants, and don't put words (or intentions for that matter) in his mouth.

He can, and will, say what he wants.

I can, and will, give my impression of the situation.

You can do the same.

However, I havn't put words in anyone's mouth but my own.

[edit on 8/14/06 by redmage]

So if you hold none of the money you are up a creek?

to an extent. Not completely, but you don't have as much option. You will have to give up essentials more quickly then people with money. its like this.

people with money:
give up trips, give up traveling in the car(gas), give up cable, give up internet, give up entertainment like movies and sport games, then they move down to the essentials like electric, water, food, gas for the home, etc.

people without money:
gas for car, then straight to essentials gas, water, good, etc.


see its not that they don't have power, they just have to give up essentials because its all they have. Its their only non physical weapon. (we don't want physical fighting until all other means are used up) The poor do a great deal of damage by not going to work, its a matter of how long they can survive compared to people with money.

We all have the same power, but some wont be able to survive as long. We don't want people dying over it until theres no other option and it comes to that. Understand what I mean?

Direct election is dangerous, I'm not even sure if I believe in direct election of the president. But that's something entirely different. The problem isn't WHO the head is, but what its capabilities are. They (agencies) needs to be monitored better by the supreme court and kept on a tighter leash. But they really aren't anything -terrible- now, they're just too big.

All the changes you're observing now is not just a change in government, but in the way people think. For the past hundred years or so (very rough approximation) people have begun to become more authoritarian.

i understand your point of the silent majority. but these are the people who are powerless because they have been part of the crappy american education system and they are the people who live paycheck to paycheck. we are losing our middle class , so these people cant hold their powers with their check book. esp with gas prices and food prices rising. most americans are conditioned to live in their materiallistic worlds, to caught up in attaining these material goals to really
give a # about what is really happening in this world

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

Originally posted by redmage
I think everyone needs to calm down a bit.

I could be wrong but, I think I smell a little bit of "Reductio ad Absurdum" going on here.

Originally posted by elitegamer23
now i ask you people , please be kind with your words towards me. im simply taking the opposite side of an arguement here. if you knew how i truly felt you would lol at all of this.

See?

It's common form of philosophical argument.

[edit on 8/14/06 by redmage]

Yeah I read that and saw it as elitegamer23 side-stepping the issue when his feet were put to the fire.

I only meant that if that is what he was doing, he should have stated it first.

john who would you rather chose the heads of our big brother. you and i, or george ? all i know is something needs to be done , just sitting back watching it happen will accomplish nothing. would any sort of ammendment to the constitution, creating a better system of checks and balances help. i mean dang if we want to ban gays from getting married in our constitution, what hurt could come from amending what our forefathers envisioned to make our goverment work. a system of checks and balances. maybe a fourth sector of goverment to watch over the other 3, in return being checked by the big 3. it wouldnt have to make the goverment bigger. we could always cut lots of fat off. if the 3 branches werent so powerful as it is.

if i would have stated i was taking up the other side of the discussion when my beliefs mostly lie elsewhere, the discussion would not have started .

im glad i did now. it made me realize how much people hate the idea of a police state. it also made me realize its happening , its going to get worse, and that something MUST be done about it. but what?

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

Originally posted by Nihilist Fiend
I only meant that if that is what he was doing, he should have stated it first.

He did, that's how I quoted it.

in nihilist defense , it wasnt till page 2.

grim the problem with wanting people to give up their material needs is they believe these are necessities. its how our society is conditioned. try asking someone to give up their tech. their flashy car. their wardrobe. im all with you and understand your idea, but americans are the most materiallistic people on the earth. spending money is what makes most people happy

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

Originally posted by elitegamer23
i understand your point of the silent majority. but these are the people who are powerless because they have been part of the crappy american education system and they are the people who live paycheck to paycheck. we are losing our middle class , so these people cant hold their powers with their check book. esp with gas prices and food prices rising. most americans are conditioned to live in their materiallistic worlds to give a # about what is really happening in this world

If you can speak to a person, they will listen. For example, I am working with a kid of 20 years old, who has the grammar intelligence of a 4th grader. He has problems simply reading. He is what you call very uneducated. Today he was amazed as we talked for 45 minutes about history in the middle east. He now knows about many wars he never knew about, things he never knew. All you have to do, is get them to relate and know how to reach them. You cant just teach alot of people, you have to do something more.

I use to believe that the majority of people are completely oblivious to the world around them and didn't care to know, but I was wrong. I had to learn this first handedly and nobody could tell me otherwise until I found out. But I did find people will listen if you know how to reach them. I couldn't tell you how to reach a person in a conversation, because most the time its just something I do. When I speak to a person, it doesn't matter how they relate to it, I listen to them. Most people just want some one to hear them out.

You want kids to start getting better educations, listen to them when they speak, and they will do the same for you. You cant teach some one if you don't listen to them. Granted some people you cant reach no matter what, the majority you can.

Originally posted by redmage

Originally posted by Nihilist Fiend
I only meant that if that is what he was doing, he should have stated it first.

He did, that's how I quoted it.

Hear that? Thats the sound of me kicking myself for not seeing that. Oh well, I have brought shame upon my name. Forgiveness Please! (seppuku noises)

elitegamer23:

I see that your intentions are good, I only disagree with your initial point of more spying. Your point is starting to wander a bit from that (which is fine because it is good to adapt an idea to new circumstances) so I will join you in constructive conversation. You are simply asking for some sort of safe-guard to governmental abuse?

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Nihilist Fiend]

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Nihilist Fiend]

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Nihilist Fiend]

Originally posted by elitegamer23
in nihilist defense , it wasnt till page 2.

True, it wasn't until the "fuel to the fire" comment that my suspicion truly started.

Then your response of "you may be onto something" when I noted the comment.

But, for him to say that I'm "putting words into your mouth" is uncalled for.

In the interest of not "hijacking the thread" though, I'll consider the matter closed.

Edit: Nihilist, I see we were typing at roughly the same time.

Thats the sound of me kicking myself

Ouch! It's OK. You can stop now. You're forgiven.

[edit on 8/14/06 by redmage]

i must go for a bit . my kid just finished her second book lol. yeah its only 4 pages long and probably25 words long but itsnot bad for a 5 year old. she now needs my undivided attention. ill be back laters. good seeing you again grim. peace all


yes nihilist, i dont blame you for not wanting more spying. but its happening. big brother is real and is gettin bigger. we just need to find a better ,more for the people instead of against the people type of big brother. ok im out now .

[edit on 14-8-2006 by elitegamer23]

If I had to choose at this very moment I'd pick a system where the Senate and House appoint a head of the agency. I'd need to give it more thought, though, and ask for input.

More police to enforce the law, just what the jews and the great unwashed would like. A jewish lawyer and a tank on every street corner. Just like the jewish homeland Isreal.


[edit on 14-8-2006 by In nothing we trust]