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Originally posted by StellarX
In my opinion the 'balloon theory' is not only simplistic but also ludicrous in it's assumption that balloons reflects light in that way or that they would be visible or in formation.
Originally posted by ArMaP
Originally posted by StellarX
In my opinion the 'balloon theory' is not only simplistic but also ludicrous in it's assumption that balloons reflects light in that way or that they would be visible or in formation.
I like simple explanations. Nature always use the path of least resistance, so I always look for the simpler explanations.
In Portugal last year, on October 5, a formation like this but smaller, with some 50 objects, was seen by some people. One of those people was the president of the Sociedade Portuguesa de Ovniologia (Portuguese Ufology Society).
He contacted one of their researchers and this researcher, equiped with a binoculars and a digital camera with an 12X optical zoom, saw that they were only ballons.
On their site you can see their report, but it is in Portuguese.
Portuguese case
Originally posted by ArMaP
I like simple explanations.
Nature always use the path of least resistance, so I always look for the simpler explanations.
He contacted one of their researchers and this researcher, equiped with a binoculars and a digital camera with an 12X optical zoom, saw that they were only ballons.
On their site you can see their report, but it is in Portuguese.
It is a video that shows more than 500 objects that are not balloons. There are objects bigger than the rest. They are formed by the mix of other objects. Their movements are autonomous. It shows Inteligence.
Originally posted by StellarX
Why do you imagine this occurance has a simple explanation? What is the motivation for that point of view?
Nature always use the path of least resistance, so I always look for the simpler explanations.
You think you will get away with that sort of statement in most universities? Why the years and lifetimes of study to understand the 'nature' you accuse of being so 'simple'?
Nature always use the path of least resistance
So why do you consider these two instances related beside the fact that it suits your ideal that the simplest solution be most accurate?
What motivates the view that knowing nothing about most things ( physics is kinda complex) will offer you the best change of being able to explain physical phenomenon? It sounds like the argument of someone who wants to defend his ignorance based on the assumption that he needs to know no more than he does already.
Originally posted by The Conspiracy Follower
Stellar, so you don't believe the balloon version of the story? Oh, come on, my only hope is that I just misunderstood you.
Hundreds of UFOs over one of the biggest cities in Europe and nobody else noticed that? Yeah, right
Watch the video again and you'll identify single balloons, several balloons tied together spinning in the air - that's damn obvious Have you wondered why the objects that you see moving relative to others are of a different size? Well that's because they are higher or lower than the rest and were caught by a wind - CHECK for yourself
bythe way, anyone knows whyy almost all the objects seem to be moving from the top right corner to the left bottom corner? Is this some kind of seasonal migration?
Originally posted by StellarX
I must admit if i have now , finally, watched the original clip i never would have argued that these were 'ufos' had i not for some reason assumed the june 5 pictures were of the june 10 event recorded on that video. My mistake entirely.
When I first saw videos of dozens of white dots in the sky I did not abandon UFO version, but hey, this video shows hundreds over the capital of Spain and isn't that strange why there was no media coverage for such an event?
Originally posted by TeH PwNeR
check this vid out, you can tell its fake cause it seems like they used a string for that
www.youtube.com...
No that's real. Prove to me that it's not real, bla, bla, bla
[edit on 18-8-2006 by Xeros]
Originally posted by Access Denied
Sanity?
What I'd like to know is why do you imagine this occurrence to not have a simple explanation? What is the motivation for your point of view?
And even if by some huge impossible stretch of the imagination these were actual UFOs then I sincerely hope this isn't what you consider to be undeniable proof of extraterrestrial visitation...
it's just a bunch of "orbs" doing nothing of any interest... and if you believe that then I've got some swampland in Florida to sell you.
P.S. Has anybody counted how many "UFOs" are actually in this video... is it really in the "thousands" as claimed by the OP in the title of this thread?
(Sorry, the title of this thread was enough reason for me to not to bother watching it... any serious researcher will tell you "real" UFOs don't appear in those kind of numbers.)
P.S.S. It occurs to me this forum ought to be required reading for psych students if it isn’t already… you just can’t get a more immersive experience than this in a field trip to the local psych ward I would imagine.
Originally posted by ArMaP
I do not "imagine" that this occurrence has a simple explanation, I suppose that this occurrence has a simple explanation because most of the times they do have a simple explanation, and I am not talking only about UFOs.
When a crime is committed does the police search for the criminal in another state or country? No, they search first on the area where the crime took place, only when they do not find the solution near, then they spread the area. The same for the motive, they start with the most obvious and then, if this does not seam the true reason, they think of other motives.
My point of view for all problems is based (not motivated) on the same principle, start with the simpler and then, if necessary, increase the complexity.
What need do I have to "get away" with this sort of statement in any university?
I do not want to enter any university, I am only trying to understand what that video shows.
I did not "accuse" Nature of being simple, I said:
That does not mean it is simple, it means only that Nature uses the easiest (from the point of view of the execution of that method, not in the complexity of what it involves) to solve its "problems".
What appeared first in Nature, the simpler or more complex organisms?
And the more complex organisms, did they start by having all the capabilities that they have know or were those capabilities the result of an evolution through the years because they were needed?
Why do we have cells that can be transformed in any other type of cell if needed? Because making all types of cell with a duplicate was a waste of materials and energy, and energy is not a free resource in Nature, it costs time, the only thing that can not be created (as far as I know).
Because I saw the photos on the site of that association and they are very similar to the images in the video.
Did you saw the photos on that Portuguese site?
What motivates the view that knowing nothing about most things ( physics is kinda complex) will offer you the best change of being able to explain physical phenomenon? It sounds like the argument of someone who wants to defend his ignorance based on the assumption that he needs to know no more than he does already.
Where did I said anything like that? If I said something that could be interpreted in that way then I am sorry, tell where it was to see if I can correct that.
I know that my English is far from perfect, I learned all by myself by earing it on the movies and on the TV and by reading books and magazines in English, but I never had nobody to teach me how to write, so sometimes I try to think the sentences in English but they turn out all mixed up, and that has created some misunderstandings in the past.
Did you read my signature? I can tell you that is true, I really like to deny ignorance, I like it so much that I even take the trouble of picking up a dictionary (yes, a real book) to know the exact meaning and origin of a word, and I do this with everything that I think may result in a increase of my knowledge.
Originally posted by StellarX
My point of view for all problems is based (not motivated) on the same principle, start with the simpler and then, if necessary, increase the complexity.
Which is not a bad standard in general as long as one is not motivated to look for simple explanations for complex problems ( 'God created everything').
I just don't really see the connection and do not understand why you have the compulsion to look for simple solutions ( which those in power always readily offer one as diversion) when they do nothing to bring understanding.
We have 20 000 odd , active, genes and yet for our current view of how the human body is supposed to function we need closer to 200 000 genes and our understanding of nature is replete with these facts..
Can't seem to find find them ( briefly scanned all six pages) but i was talking about those three odd links i provided earlier.
Well if denying ignorance is your true aim we will, if not now eventually, get along just fine.
Originally posted by ArMaP
My point of view for all problems is based (not motivated) on the same principle, start with the simpler and then, if necessary, increase the complexity.
If anyone offers a simple explanation for something I accept it only if it really shows the possibility of explaining that situation.
In this case, if my "balloon explanation" didn't fly then I would have had to search another explanation, not so simple.
That is exactly what I have been trying to say. If we have something like 20,000 active genes but using our present knowledge think that we should have needed some 200,000 to function, then the real system is simpler, it only needs 20,000, Nature found a way of doing things simpler than "our" way.
Part of this idea of mine that most things have simple explanations comes from my work, I am a computer programmer, so I have had some hundreds of problems to solve during my career.
Almost all problems can be solved in more than one way,
but the simpler is usually the best and the one that gives the best results. Sometimes I solve a problem but I "mark" it as an incomplete solution because I think that I did not found the easiest way of doing it. The last time this happened was 5 weeks ago, and that piece of code that I had written more or less a year ago and that worked, when revised, was reduce to only 20% of its size and turned out to be some 10% faster than the original version.
second way of doing things was simpler than the first that I used.
pramming, if we find only a complex way of doing things than it means that we did not look carefully enough for the best solution, we only looked for the fastest way of finding a solution.
Nature has time on its side, so it has had time enough to make this type of "tunning", that is why we only have 20,000 genes, its the result of optimization.
But I may be completely wrong and I am prepared to face the day when I reach that conclusion.
You can be sure of that, in fact I may tell you that I do not have any solution for those pictures you pointed to, at least not yet, but those things do not fit my balloon explanation for the other case.
Originally posted by StellarX
If you automatically assume the simpler explanation to be more likely you will never have any encouragement to learn anything knew as you will find the simplest solution to be something that your mind can understand. Why do you think we have gods? It's the most likely ( simpler) explanation for everything and anything when your mostly ignorant. Can you see where i am coming from when i am claim that assuming simplicity is basically a negative loop where ignorance begets ignorance?
Then your agnostic as i am which means that we have found no god ( a past or current prime mover ) for just yet but that we are open to the idea and investigating the possibility.
What level of proof do you demand and do you demand it when your ideas are contested or when you contest the ideas of others? From what sources will you accept this proof?
One can assign balloons almost any aerodynamic capabilities if one does not know much and hence one can always readily use it when others are no better informed. I must admit that in the original instance there was not much reason to suspect anything other but where does one draw the line?
When something is already working odds are that it broke only partly and that the problem is thus small and relatively simple considering the means involved. I think i understand where your coming from but i do not think it's accurate to compare programming languages with the wide scope of science and observed reality. If you know a computer language it's a world largely isolated from other facts but that is simply not so in 'real world' ( TM) where lack of knowledge begets the assumption of simplicity.
At the time it certainly was not as you would then have obviously been able to do it 'right' and 'simplest' the first time..... How much did you learn in that time?
second way of doing things was simpler than the first that I used.
You always do it the best and simplest way you can the truth just not being readily apparent at the time. The simplest solution involved more knowledge and time, strangely, so what is that really suggestive of?
Well many basic forms of worms have more genes than we do and i am not so sure you would have attempted above argument had you know that.
The suspension of judgement is a very positive sign and my only ( possible worthwhile imo) advice would be to never rush to conclusions unless your very life depends on it; readily choosing to remain uncertain about any number of issues is what true discovery is based on as it encourages the constant acquisition of knowledge.