Evolution - Creation 'rabble rabble rabble'

Originally posted by opensecret1150
There is no point engaging with creationists.

They have turned off their rational brains and adopted a superstious pathology not much more advanced than a caveman interpreting patterns in the stars.

I believe in evolution roughly 80% as truth.
Im trying to find a scientific way to explain God but its very very very hard to people who are solid minded

I havent turned off my brain, im not adopting supersticious mumbojumbo, what im saying is definately a weird way to look at things and if i cant explain it eventually then i will have to go away and find a new approach

Originally posted by masqua

Originally posted by opensecret1150
There is no point engaging with creationists.

They have turned off their rational brains and adopted a superstious pathology not much more advanced than a caveman interpreting patterns in the stars.

Wow, another like-minded pro-creative

at least were roughing out at a 7:2 ratio of Science to God now

Umm yeh good point on how smart people shouldnt engage in debate with creative minds, so why do it?

- Is debating with creationists really that much fun?

Originally posted by Grey
What suprises me is how ignorant both sides of the argument are, in general. Aside from the prepostorous notion that man was created from the dirt, and women from the rib of man (in Christianity's case), there is nothing in religion that explicity opposes natural selection. Likewise, evolution clearly does not state that there isn't a higher power. Scientists who use Charles Darwin as a reference to refute "God" are just as ignorant as priests who say that evolution is impossible because the Earth has only been around for some 5000 years.

Sorry but im not a mouse

I hope you did notice that i partly agree with evolution, its one of the many facts of life, one of the laws of nature. But i still think a creator is behind this and as such, influences a few other things we percieve in life.

If im being ignorant, sorry. Just bitch slap me and ill re-write what im trying to get accross in equation form yes? You guys read in mathematical formulas yes? or binary? something difficult

semper, you'll notice that the only thing i refused to accept was the absolute creationist theory. ifully acknowledge that god may have created the universe, and that he may exist - but 7 days is beyond any kind of possibility with the evidence we have gathered to the contrary.

i'm a staunch agnostic, but there's certain things i refuse to believe.

Don't get me wrong 25cents....

I'm behind you 100%

Semper

Yes acctually, because evolutionists dont acknowledge God.
Because there is not such as thing as God.

Umm, thats a little ignorant.. What proof do you have?

The fact you support evolution debunks God unless you state otherwise. Studying biology and turning it into an answer for everything to replace God.. yes?

Of course it debunks God. Why shouldn't it? if you think the Christian God is the only true God, because it happens to be your religion, then you have just insulted millions who are not Christians and billions of non-Christians that lived in the past.

From your posts, it seems you have a problem accepting you're not the center of the universe.

Acctually i never acknowledged the Christian God as the one true God.. cough
Haha i insult no one my friend because my perception of God spans accross all religions.. The same God, differant way of praise and beliefs, but essentially its the same figure representing true religions.
Do you mean from my own center axis or the Universe's center axis? You need to be C.L.E.A.R. when you spit talk

Basing the 'Theory' of evolution starting from bacteria to small animal to large animal without proof is exploiting the wonders.. Might aswell slap slap a sticker over ur face saying "i was a monkey 5 million years ago"

Originally posted by semperfortis

semper, you'll notice that the only thing i refused to accept was the absolute creationist theory. ifully acknowledge that god may have created the universe, and that he may exist - but 7 days is beyond any kind of possibility with the evidence we have gathered to the contrary.

i'm a staunch agnostic, but there's certain things i refuse to believe.

Don't get me wrong 25cents....

I'm behind you 100%

Semper

Can i join the club?

BTW Absolute creationist doesnt work by itself, evolution is there too..

A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.

That is the definition of a Theory. So, calling Gravity and evolution "Just a Theory" isn't a bad thing, it's a good thing.

But ID is not a theory, it is religon. Theory is science, therefor ID can not be a theory.

Originally posted by fennek77

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Mmmhhmmm.. And here it comes down to, religion.

Sugar coat your pseudo-science all you want, but in the end, its about not just religion, but specifically christianity. And when you can't defend your false science agenda any more, you give up, and resort to insults.

I get frustrated trying to debate something i believe in yet the people i am talking with dont practise religion on any scale. So what am i doing? Im argueing with 5-6 people about their beliefs in favor of my own.. of course its annoying, but ive got to do some research to sink that page long list of questions from the other guy

I am a confirmed Catholic, I am a firm Agnostic, I believe out of all religion, Budist have been the closest to the truth and I have studied the Bible at Catholic schools my entire life. My conclusion is that it is a book of fables designed to allow the common man a means to judge his life by simply asking if what he does is moral.

Your view on the world is through the eyes and mind of a Christian and in that you are so very flawed. Christianity is not the correct religion, not the one and only religion and the god you worship is in no way the one sole diety. Your religion is 2,000 years old, Judaism is older then that, but younger then civilization. If god created adam and eve in that magical garden that no longer exist, why didn't the world follow judaism? Why where we not given the rules to live by then? Why are we created through Incest of one family? Why would this god of yours allow the Egyptians, Phoenicians, Summarians, Babylonians to have their own religions?? Why was Animal worship, Nature worship and various polytheistic religions all practised far longer then christianity?? Did the entire earths population burn in hell until the first Christians walked the earth? Please spare me that god, an unreasonable god, an unjust god.

there is a difference between studying the bible and memoriznig. I suggest you look into the history of man and find where your stories actually come from.. you'll be surprised that these stories are old and different then what you read now, Christianity simply took the pegan religions before it to form a new one then used it to control the world. No one will listen to your arguments if you base everything on religion and then not actually know anythign about your religion.

Originally posted by fennek77
Yes acctually, because evolutionists dont acknowledge God.

No science 'acknowledges' god.

The fact you support evolution debunks God unless you state otherwise. Studying biology and turning it into an answer for everything to replace God.. yes?

No one has ever suggested that because organisms are made up of cells, for example, that therefore there is no god. Certainly, if they did, they'd rightly be chased out to the sound of shouts of "non sequitor non sequitor!!!!!". Biology no more 'debunks god' than engineering or medecine.

by exploiting the wonders of the world
Why do you consider the investigation of nature an exploitation?

Basing the 'Theory' of evolution starting from bacteria to small animal to large animal without proof is exploiting the wonders.
There is fossil evidence and genetic evidence supporting it. Surely thats not exploiting anything. THe evidence points torwards evolution.

Based on observation

Ok lets observe. Hmm, no god. No observations of god anywhere infact.

, understanding factors that make life unique

Because its rare, its got something to go with god?

belief in the bible text

Notice, beleif. Its based on belief.

which results in a happy society.

Like in the dark ages??

Who said anything about a fictional charector? and clay? lol
God is the definition of everything,

This still does not answer how god creating life is more rational or reasonable than any actual theory on the origins of life.

Exactly, its a theory thats bottom shelf and doesnt work

Simply stating this hardly makes it true. What 'doesn't work', specifically?

Please provide more challenging arguements

How about you try answering some of the questions, then you can ask for more challenging material!

Absolute creationist doesnt work by itself, evolution is there too

Please demonstrate that evolution 'doesn't work'.

masterp
Of course it debunks God. Why shouldn't it?

*yells* non sequitor non sequitor!!!! *shakes fist*

grey
Scientists who use Charles Darwin as a reference to refute "God" are just as ignorant as priests

Scientists do not use darwin's ideas to refute god, mostly because they don't refute god, as anyone can see.

are in fact connected, so too is the metaphysical, and the physical.

If they are, that still doesn't change that science can only deal with the physical, science is applying reason to phenomena, metaphysics isn't necessarily bound by (possibly petty and paraochial) human conceptions of reason.

i think people need answers to questions that they deem important

and then make # up and find different ways to rationalize it so there analytical minds can process things in a way that makes sense to them

i will now proceed to do just that

creatism evolution who says there are only two options. there is probably a little bit of truth to both, and when u subtract the element of fear and the emotion of pride u could probably see this easier, and there is not just one or two missing links in evoluition there are a hundred " the scientist that uncovered remains later named "lucy" admits the head was about 70 feet away from the body and that the evoluition group saw the chance an jumped on this answer to the missing link in an evolutioniary chain. personally i am not pulling for either argument. although we don't know nearly enough about the world we live in TODAY and NOW to give a DEFINITIVE ANSWER to such a question as how did it all begin or how did we get here from nothingness? those answers are not only specualtive but point less we are here now, and the better question is where will we be in the near future? the great tribulation? already there the 4'th dimension? quite possible A date of this new beginning or assention october 28, 2011. a metaphor for this ascension.... heaven as "time" goes by
our consciousness is expanding and transforming and allowing us to be able to see the REVELATIONS of higher truths in this world.




"when there is so much around us that we can't see that effects us, why do people say i'll belevie it when i see it"

[edit on 13-8-2006 by cpdaman]

when it comes to the evolution creation debate i personally side with creationism
i know both sides and i also know it is impossible to proove either of them 100%

both sides have good points i prefer creationism because it is makes me feel better about life actually having a meaning and a creator that loves us.
that's how i feel about it but i don't push it on anyone

i do not believe evolution belongs in the schools as it is a waste of time for 99.9% of the students
the students it will one day matter to already know about it by the time they get to that point in school anyways (usually 10th or 11th grade out of 12 grades)

they do not need to waste time learning things that have no application in the real world excet for the elite few who already know what is being taught

if classes such as biology were offered as optional classes like religious studies, then i would be fine with the situation

however biology is a manditory class that serves little more than to bring down the average student's GPA as the concepts involved are usually poorly explained by teachers who barely get the idea
cellular mitosis?
disecting frogs, squids, and worms?

do any of you remember anything form the class that had you doing these things?
i don't.
for me it was a complete waste of 8100 minutes of my life (45 minutes for 180 days)
i ended up with a B+ for the class, A 1st semester, C+ 2nd semester
that was only about 5 years ago, and i remember nothing from the class but a few words and not even what they mean

even the teacher felt the class was a joke as his assistant taught the class almost the entire year.

if this class were optional i would not have taken it, i'd of taken physics a year early so i could have a free timeslot to take calculus or another computer class or electronics class

no, i had to "learn" about biology and evolution because it's just so important in life
99% of jobs the real world have no use of biology
the age of the universe and how we got here have no impact on car sales, factory production, toxic emmsissions, or politics not related to religion

all manditory teaching of evolution serves to do is force people to question their religious stance of god creating everything or everything being an evolutionary roll of the dice

once again, i am not disputing evolution nor creationism, i am disputing the manditory teaching of both

Forestry, Wildlife Biology, Animal Husbandry, Genetics, Medicine, Psychology, Pharmacology, on and on and on.

I'm sorry that your career made Biology useless, but that is not the case for everyone.


Semper

Originally posted by masterp

Ok. Here are some arguments for your beloved God's non-existence:

1) if the universe is deterministic, there is no point in living life, since everything is predetermined. So God actually plays with our emotions; we are simply puppets.

2) Since God created everything, God also created evil.

3) Why not all people are not given equal chance to prove if they should go to heaven? a young baby killed does not get a chance to sin, so he/she will go straight to heaven. Whereas me and you will be judged on the 70+ years we are gonna live.

4) Who created God? if God is eternal, why isn't the universe eternal?

5) if God existed, would he let humans kill each other in religious conflict? wouldn't God be for all people?

6) If God is eternal, then the universe is infinitely small in temporal terms for God. Why God made it in the first place? The idea of an eternal 'creator' is absurd.

7) Why humans have tails? or the support for one? why humans have nails?

1) Everything isnt predetermined. God knows exactly what's going to happen, and he can see history from beginning to end. But just because he knows what's going to happen we still can choose what we do, but God just already knows what choice we are going to make.

2) God created his angels, and some chose not to follow God, like Satan. Not following God is opposing God which is what evil is. Man brought evil upon himself.

3) Well, it would be harsh for a new born to be sent to Hell. If you have been given an opportunity to learn about Jesus and accept him as your saviour but you deny you will face the penalty. 70 years is ample time to prove if you should go to heaven.

4) Remember God is outside the universe. Humans cannot comprehend existence without a beginning and end. God was there before there was anything, he had no creator. The universe isnt eternal and God is eternal because again God is outside the universe. The universe is simpy a creation, it can be destroyed at his will, just as if i made a cake, i exist outside the cake and i could destroy it if i wanted to and i would still exist.

5) Man brought sin into the world. God didnt want violence and war. If God stopped all violence and war it would mean we had no free will. That is why he wants to take us home to heaven with him where we will live the way he designed us to live.

6) Im not sure what you mean. God designed the Universe and us for his pleasure.

7) God designed us this way.

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[edit on 14-8-2006 by masqua]

8) Yes, so we have the desire to reproduce. Though before the Fall there was not feelings for lust or other imorality. God also gave us a will to resist temptation.

9) Parallel universes do not prove the non existence of God.

10)This contradicts #1. How does this prove the non existence of God? Quantum mechanics is not a complete theory. Maybe it only appears random to us.

11)Remember God created the universe before man. If no sin came into the world there would have been no need for Jesus’ sacrifice and there would be no destruction of the universe as God first planned. God loves creating. (if you were God wouldn’t you?)

12)The people who are already dead are in Heaven or Hell. No one lived before God.

13)God is certainly more complex than anything humans can imagine. I see no way how you can correlate this to God being created.


[edit on 14-8-2006 by LancerJ1]

Originally posted by LancerJ1
1) Everything isnt predetermined. God knows exactly what's going to happen, and he can see history from beginning to end. But just because he knows what's going to happen we still can choose what we do, but God just already knows what choice we are going to make.

2) God created his angels, and some chose not to follow God, like Satan. Not following God is opposing God which is what evil is. Man brought evil upon himself.

3) Well, it would be harsh for a new born to be sent to Hell. If you have been given an opportunity to learn about Jesus and accept him as your saviour but you deny you will face the penalty. 70 years is ample time to prove if you should go to heaven.

4) Remember God is outside the universe. Humans cannot comprehend existence without a beginning and end. God was there before there was anything, he had no creator. The universe isnt eternal and God is eternal because again God is outside the universe. The universe is simpy a creation, it can be destroyed at his will, just as if i made a cake, i exist outside the cake and i could destroy it if i wanted to and i would still exist.

5) Man brought sin into the world. God didnt want violence and war. If God stopped all violence and war it would mean we had no free will. That is why he wants to take us home to heaven with him where we will live the way he designed us to live.

6) Im not sure what you mean. God designed the Universe and us for his pleasure.

7) God designed us this way.

13)God is certainly more complex than anything humans can imagine. I see no way how you can correlate this to God being created.

1) Sorry thats a bit feeble as an answer. If god knows how,where,when and why everything in this universe dies then that is PREDETERMINATION and no matter how much choosing we do will stop this.

2) So why does the bible say god made evil, is evil. Anyway if god made satan then god made evil and knew all about what he was doing (as you stated in 1.)Then god IS the creator of evil.

3)Just as harsh as it is to kill a new born and not give it the chance to supposedly find god and heaven. Also there is NO-ONE in heaven at the moment as no-one has been judged yet living or dead.

4) HA HA the old favourite ' god is infinite and unknowable' line. But then you proceed to tell us what god wants and why god done this and why he did that and what he's going to do. Sorry but its either one or the other.

5) Man brought sin into the world???? Eh no god made man and as god knows everything then it was gods intention to bring sin into the world. In any case sin was invented by the church.

6) What!!! god made the universe for our pleasure??? Yes I for one was pleased at the holiday I had to Zeta Reticulli and the fact the the whole universe got together in harmony so we could all enjoy it.

7) Here we go again first 'god moves in mysterious ways' and 'we cant know god' BUT we just happen to know "thats the way god designed us".

8-12) Cant be bothered with these just the same explanations with the assumption of what god knows and does.

Number 13) however, Have you read what you wrote?
Firstly you state that god is more complex than man/everything and therefore must have been designed or created. But if god is MORE complex then doesn't that mean he must have been designed and created (as complexity in your eyes means a designer)


G


cut down quote to relevant bits


[edit on 14-8-2006 by masqua]

Nice responses, glad to see some open-minded people

evolution=based on observations and valid logic
creation=based on faith and superstition

both are equally valid to believe in, though only one is scientific

i don't care if you believe god created everything in 7 days (well, 6 plus vacation), but you cannot discount something that we've observed on a microscopic scale

Good website worth checking out:

Scientific Evidence of Creation

Check out the creation models and the articles, it makes for a good read.

Originally posted by wondernut
no, i had to "learn" about biology and evolution because it's just so important in life
99% of jobs the real world have no use of biology

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with this exciting new field known as 'medecine'.

I find it...dissapointing that a person can be offered the oppurtunity to learn about this incredible universe, and they reject it because 'its boring' or they think its 'useless' and would literally prefere to remain ignorant.

fennek77
Good website worth checking out[...]the creation models and the articles

This is Baugh's 'creation museum' no?
What did you find convincing from it?

Listen, like Isaid before, I have no problem with the belief of creationism. But don't spread no Science, don't force it into schools, and don't try to replace it for biological designs. If anything, it will be counterproductive and will only lead to a furry of backwards advancement of our culture.

First its evolution.

Then its medicine.


right? I mean, making medicine takes the wonders away from nature. God is our medicine, he will heal you...