P2: The Propaganda lodge.

Here is a couple of questions that have been troubling me recently about the P2 lodge.

1. Concerning P2 and it's collective aim to have "overall control" of the government, and the elimination of the commies and the trade unionists. Are there any other lodges that hold such lofty aims like this? I'm not suggesting that they do, but I'd like to know.
2. If Masons are supposed to hate Catholics so much, then why did P2 participate in money laundering with Roberto Calvi? (His nickname was God's own banker, due to his ties with the Vatican and the Archbishop Paul Marcinkus)
3. Did Masons kill Roberto Calvi? If so, then for what reason? If not, then who did?
4. Do Masons have ties to the Mafia? As both are quite shadowy entities that nobody knows anything about, it does have a sense of mystery, and wouldn't be surprising if they were.
5.Are Masons mostly right-wing?

Well, thanks for reading. I do hope I get a response from all this.

Here's a link to P2 information.

www.martinfrost.ws...

i have something to say about the mafia thing.

i have heard 2 things about it. one, i heard that a mason actually started the mafia in italy. but i also heard that the mafia is afraid of the masons. i actually have a freind who claims mafia ties and he doesnt know anything about the masons, so they may or may not be in cahoots. i've heard it said that masons have taken over money laundering rackets run by the mafia though, and that the mafia just lets them do it because they know they have more power than the mob.

[edit on 12-8-2006 by hexrain1]

The CIA worked with Bin Laden to reach its goals aghainst the Russians. When it comes to making money racial and religious barriers are quickly crossed.

I'd also like to know how Roberto Calvi was able to commit suicide in these circumstances. (And why did he have that much money on him?)

There's a good documentary film floating around, I forget what it's call now.

[edit on 12/8/06 by ConspiracyNut23]

Let me pose a question.

The Masons kicked the P2 lodge out of masonry well before the stuff hit the fan there.

What else should they of done?

Wasn't it called in by the Italian Masons then?

Originally posted by MacDonagh
Concerning P2 and it's collective aim to have "overall control" of the government, and the elimination of the commies and the trade unionists. Are there any other lodges that hold such lofty aims like this? I'm not suggesting that they do, but I'd like to know.

Were those even aims of the propaganda due group? Masons, if anything, tend to support liberal movements, and of course the fraternity itself started off as a trade union. Are you sure you are not thinking of Gladio?

2. If Masons are supposed to hate Catholics so much,

Masons aren't supposed to hate catholics. Freemasonry is big in Italy. Freemasonry is anti-authority, and the RCC was the authority for a long time. The history of the relationships was, for a time, that masonry was seen as a protestant group, and probably still is in places like ireland. But masons aren't supposed to hate catholics. Lots of catholics are masons.

4. Do Masons have ties to the Mafia? As both are quite shadowy entities that nobody knows anything about,

?
What isn't known about masonry? Masonry has no oaths quite like Omerta.

5.Are Masons mostly right-wing?

Historically, the fraternity, counting both british and continental masonry, is very liberal.

hexrain1
i heard that a mason actually started the mafia in italy

There is some debate over this. The mafia started in sicily, sicily was relatively anarachic, the mafia was a little more than 'just' a criminal gang, more of a militia of criminals and local thugs-overlords. So its difficult to say exactly when the mafia started. Some argue that Manzini started it, that he organized many sicilians into an organization that, if it wasn't the mafia then, became the basis for it. Manzini was the comrad-at-arms of Garibaldi, both were masons (italian masons though, not regular-masons), and they overthrew the Papal Authority and brought about the unification of Italy. Of course, there were lots of groups agitating against the papal states and the local kings.

CUG
What else should they of done?

Indeed, if they booted P2 because of violation of bylaws, rather than actual laws, then its really meaningless. But, I think that the OP is wondering, if there is a certain propaganda within masonry, anti-catholic, anti-liberty, etc, how much of that was in effect in P2 (and, of course, I am not saying that masonry is anti-catholic/liberty).

1. Plotting against the government is in direct contravention to Masonic law. If any lodge had such aims, they would be irregular and "illegal" according to these laws.
2. Masons aren't supposed to hate Catholics. The Pope originally kicked up a stink about Freemasonry, not the other way round. Many of my Lodge brothers ARE Catholic.
3. Can't really answer this one.
4. I sincerely doubt it. Freemasonry openly rejects criminal behaviour and rebellion against the law of the land. The Mafia is an inherently criminal organisation. The two organisations are polarised in this respect.
5. Freemasonry doesn't dictate politics. Freemasons' politics are their own. Speaking for myself, I'm a bit of a socialist and vote for a pro-union party. Any lodge brother of mine may well swing the other way. There are no requirements or criteria concerning politics.

Most of the Grand Lodges and Orients that operate in Italy are masonically irregular by Western standards, because of their constant interference in politics (among other things). Only the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy is recognized. I wouldn't be at all suprised to discover contacts between the mafia and some Italian grand lodges. In all areas where freemasonry operates it is inevitably a reflection of the society in which it is located. Likewise a lack of freemasonry tells us much about the social and political environment in which it is absent.

1. Plotting against the government is in direct contravention to Masonic law.

I would amend this to say, 1. Plotting against the government is in direct contravention to modernMasonic law. As I believe at the time of the foundation
of GLE (ca 1717) and the formation of GL of ALL England shortly after, basically Yorkright and Scottish right, the Scots branch did actively advocate theover throw of the
english govt. in favor of the return of a rightful Stewart monarch to the throne. Several years later UGLE came about.

So today we have UGLE Masons in the UK and Northern and Southern Juristiction
in the US ( does this equate to Yankees and Rebels?)

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

I would amend this to say, 1. Plotting against the government is in direct contravention to modernMasonic law. As I believe at the time of the foundation
of GLE (ca 1717) and the formation of GL of ALL England shortly after, basically Yorkright and Scottish right, the Scots branch did actively advocate theover throw of the
english govt. in favor of the return of a rightful Stewart monarch to the throne. Several years later UGLE came about.

The York Rite seems to have supported the House of Orange against the Stuarts. The original charges necessitate the Mason to be "a peacable citizen, not given to controversies and rebellion".

More leeway is found in the Scottish Rite, where the above is amended to recognize and be loyal to legitimate government. From the degrees, Legendas, and Liturgies of the Scottish Rite, we know that by "legitimate", the Rite speaks of free government by the people. Therefore, it is the doctrine of the Scottish Rite that a man is not acting immorally if he rebels against an illegitimate government.

So today we have UGLE Masons in the UK and Northern and Southern Juristiction
in the US ( does this equate to Yankees and Rebels?)

Sort of. The Southern Jurisdiction chartered the Northern Council because it was impossible for them to combat the irregular bodies spreading in New York and new England from their home in Charleston, SC. The Rites of Memphis, Mitzraim, and Cerneau were becoming very popular in the north, while the orthodox Scottish Rite was practically non-existent. The formation of a new Supreme Council of the 33° was therefore almost mandatory.

Originally posted by Masonic LightTherefore, it is the doctrine of the Scottish Rite that a man is not acting immorally if he rebels against an illegitimate government.

This applies very well to today’s corporate governments. We need our governments back.!

I was only theorizing about what you two (ML and StalkingWolf) are talking about. I was trying to determine how masonry was used by an elite in the past to achieve their political (therefore business) goals. Great stuff.

(The only thing I've been exposed to is the conspiratorial French revolution stuff.)

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23


I was only theorizing about what you two (ML and StalkingWolf) are talking about. I was trying to determine how masonry was used by an elite in the past to achieve their political (therefore business) goals. Great stuff.

(The only thing I've been exposed to is the conspiratorial French revolution stuff.)

I would argue that the ancien regime was indeed illegitimate, and that the peasantry had every right to revolt as they did. The problem of course is that the revolution gave way to the Reign of Terror which was certainly worse than the government under the House of Bourbon. These excesses in turn led to the rise of Napoleon, who made Louis XVI look like a little puppy dog.