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Sinn Fein to sit at Westminister?

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posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 08:31 AM
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They currently have offices at Westminister (which the Labour party introduced a bill removing the ban on Sinn Feinn back in 1997) and many have said (including republicans in Northern Ireland) that if Sinn Fein are to achieve their goal of a United Ireland they will have to get involved in British political debate.

Those who study politics and comment on our process, state that it is only a matter of time before Sinn Fein members sit in the House of Commons. But, (as my mother said) i doubt Adams or McGuinness will take their sits due to damage that the IRA caused to the United Kingdom (and both are them were members of the IRA army council. Adams was the head of the IRA).




posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 08:59 AM
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Well, as long as they are members of a legit political party, I dont see why not.

I mean, if the BNP can have seats, why cant Sinn Fein?

Wouldnt ever catch me voting for them, or supporting them, but fair and free politics isnt about who we like or dont like.

Its about letting all voices, no matter how unpopular or hated, speak their minds.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I mean, if the BNP can have seats, why cant Sinn Fein?


Well, Sinn Fein were the political wing of the Provisional IRA

BNP didn't blow anything up (even thou the BNP use to have links to loyalist terrorists) and, well, the last time Gerry Adams went to Westminister....a car bomb went off.

There is an interesting theory that Sinn Fein will become very important to British politics in the event of a hung parliament. The theory is the next general election will end up hung between Labour and the Tories and one of them will have to bring the Northern Ireland parties into a coalition (DUP and Sinn Fein are the largest parties in Northern Ireland. They both nearly have all the 18 seats in Northern Ireland).

Could create sleepless nights for someone.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 09:22 AM
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I know who Sinn Fein are. And I do believe they are scum.

However, even scum deserves its own representation. And while the BNP never blew anyone up, they advocate deporting a huge chunk of Britian's population, myself included, because of the color of their skin, or in my case, our nation of birth.

Besides, outside Northern Ireland, how popular are they? Not very, from what Ive seen.

I think Labour, if they got rid of Blair and his new Labour crowd, the Labour party would actually win enough support that it wouldn't have to worry about embracing the likes of Sinn Fein.

Besides, you know the old adage. keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. What better way to keep a good eye on Sinn Fein?



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
I know who Sinn Fein are. And I do believe they are scum.


Scum is too nice of a word to describe Sinn Fein




Besides, outside Northern Ireland, how popular are they? Not very, from what Ive seen.


small support in the Republic of Ireland (about 10%) but the main parties have refused ever to go into a coalition with them due to their marxist views on the economy and the fact they are still funded by the IRA. Plus the Irish government has promised the UK that Sinn Fein will never be apart of any coalition in any Irish government.

Your typical far left group supports the "struggle" (i use that lightly) against the "imperial British", but apart from that, we see them as terrorist in suits.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 09:44 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
Scum is too nice of a word to describe Sinn Fein


I know. However, ATS terms and conditions prevents me from giving a more accurate description.



small support in the Republic of Ireland (about 10%) but the main parties have refused ever to go into a coalition with them due to their marxist views on the economy and the fact they are still funded by the IRA. Plus the Irish government has promised the UK that Sinn Fein will never be apart of any coalition in any Irish government.


Ok. So not a real danger politically, then. Just a mouthpiece for the IRA. All the more reason to let them in.......so you can mercilessly spy on them and keep them under surveillance.


Your typical far left group supports the "struggle" (i use that lightly) against the "imperial British", but apart from that, we see them as terrorist in suits.


Yeah. far left groups also still believe that communism actually worked too. Terrorists in suits is a good description.
But do you see my opinion here? Do you think it would be alot easier to spy on them and dig deeper into the IRA if their guard was dropped and them let in?

In American terms, I would think it a worthwhile risk to say, let some Al Qaeda supporters into congress, feeding them minimal information and spying on them mercileslly, perhaps gathering valuable intel on them.

Ceasefire or not, I still think it is essential to keep digging into and fighting the IRA covertly.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
But do you see my opinion here? Do you think it would be alot easier to spy on them and dig deeper into the IRA if their guard was dropped and them let in?

Ceasefire or not, I still think it is essential to keep digging into and fighting the IRA covertly.


The Provisional IRA is no longer a terrorist threat, but the Real IRA (who do not agree with Adams and Belfast agreement) are still threat and are active (read my thread about Newry firebombing).

If Sinn Fein move back to an army struggle, their support would collasped and tight terror laws would get them banned in the UK and the Republic of Ireland would end of banning them too.

In other words, there is too much for Sinn Fein.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 10:10 AM
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Thank you for the enlightenment, infinite. It is helping me further grasp some intricacies of politcs here.

So basically, allowing Sinn Fein into Westminster would put their balls in the proverbial vice.




posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
So basically, allowing Sinn Fein into Westminster would put their balls in the proverbial vice.



Plus loyalist terrorist groups do have cells here (on the mainland) up in Glasgow, Liverpool, etc. If Sinn Fein took their sits in Westminister (Lets say Gerry Adams) you can expect someone to take a shot at him.

[edit on 12-8-2006 by infinite]



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 11:04 AM
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If the political situation has been so transformed that Sinn Fein can feel able to take their seats
(for which they have been repeatedly and freely elected and have a right through popular mandate to take)
and the British have moved sufficiently to make this a plausible reality then great, I'm all for it.

It would be yet another profound and IMO very much welcome sign that we truly are moving away from the era of 'the troubles'.

Sadly all the comment about "mercilessly spying", "guards dropping" etc etc (and that isn't meant particularly a reference to anyone here, it's not exactly a sentiment difficult to find) is a fair indication that some probably just won't ever let it go.
Some have good reason and just can't - but it's also true that there are others with good reason not to who, even so, do.
I believe that there is more hope than fear, thankfully and more to hope for than fear, we would never have gotten any progress if the forces of fear and suspicion were the majority ruling ones.

However imperfect the 'peace process' and the accompanying 'political process' may be we are undeniably far far better off now compared to even 10yrs ago (never mind the almost 40 back to the start of this latest round of 'the troubles') and have seen enormous progress towards 'normality'.

Personally I doubt Adams or McGuinness will ever go and take their seats at Westminster, unless it was for some profoundly grand and highly visible gesture.....but for a younger generation never involved with the IRA or an 'IRA Army Council' it might be quite another matter.

A system of tandem representation or at least consultation at the Dail in the Republic of Ireland (for all parties that wish to make use of the facility) would be an interesting addition to this idea (and is something already floated in the RoI).

Whatever Northern Ireland was or is or is to be the idea that it can be forced into a black and white, one or other, 'shape' which fits exactly with the old ideologies (whether orange or green) is IMO out-dated and a misjudgement.

I think 'we' are on the way to being a unique mix or half-way house as far as 'our' 'official identity' goes, part British part Irish and part unique 'Northern Irish'.
This is, IMO, quite fitting given the political split now
(approx 46% unionist, 42% nationalist/republican and approx 12% 'other').

There is no actual 'majority' for any single 'tradition' anymore.....

.....and given the appalling track record and aggressive tendencies (if not worse) each of the 2 main 'identities' have demonstrated at times in the past perhaps that is no bad thing.



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 07:12 PM
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I think Sin Fein should be able to take seats wherever they can win them. The IRA has put down its guns and I think we the British aren’t keeping our end of the bargain by letting the Northern Ireland Assembly operate. What are the links with Sinn Fein to terrorism? Could someone please prosecute the criminals if they are doing wrong?

Why with all the panic about terrorism is no one prosecuting the alleged criminal elements in Sinn Fein? Could it be like Iraq’s WMD’s-we simply can’t find them?

From what I understand is that Sinn Fein is a completely legitimate political party; and that the British government is siding Unionists because its afraid to have take them on. I think its unfair that the IRA got rid of its weapons, ceased all violence only to be rewarded with no localised northern Ireland democracy whatsoever. However I’ve never supported terrorism ether so at least the violence has stopped.

What worries me is that if things continue this way the brake away extremists groups will have every reason to grow; and it will only be a couple more years of no Northern Ireland Assembly and violence will continue. The Irish people always wanted peace; why can’t the people of Northern Ireland (as opposed to the British prime minister) decide whether or not their assembly is suspended?

Frankly I suspect that Blair wants terrorism because be Al Qaeda or whoever like George Bush, Blair fancies himself as a wartime leader. It’s something most politicians seem to enjoy; and you only have to condemn violence against your people and all your people agree with you.

We can have peace in Northern Ireland; and at the moment we’ve pretty much got it. My concern is that No 10’s lame betrayal of the deal will put an end to it. If I were a Republican I would be pretty p****d of.

Republican Irish representatives have stood at Westminster before; it happened at the turn of the century and they used their small political mass to make and break bills passing through parliament. No doubt the same will be true once again.

Skadi-the-Evil-Elf Are you sure Sinn Fein wants to deport all Brits? I know the IRA hated British Protestants; but is Sinn Fein really that extremist? (sorry for my apparent ignorance).



posted on Aug, 12 2006 @ 07:30 PM
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Actually, Liberal, i was refering the the BNP and its stance on deporting all foreigners out of Britain.

Which would include myself.



posted on Aug, 13 2006 @ 06:04 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Personally I doubt Adams or McGuinness will ever go and take their seats at Westminster, unless it was for some profoundly grand and highly visible gesture.....but for a younger generation never involved with the IRA or an 'IRA Army Council' it might be quite another matter.


I do recall that some younger members of Sinn Fein want to sit in the commons so they can debate on Northern Ireland issues (currently, DUP and SDLP can because they take up their seats).

But would Sinn Fein take the oath? thats the main question. some, in their community, celebrated the Queens birthday so i do not think the oath is a problem anymore.



A system of tandem representation or at least consultation at the Dail in the Republic of Ireland (for all parties that wish to make use of the facility) would be an interesting addition to this idea (and is something already floated in the RoI).


Sinn Fein never use to sit in the Dail aswell, they didn't recongise the Republic of Ireland (or as they called it "the Irish free state") and that move lead to the break away and the creation of Republican Sinn Fein.

And with Gerry saying "the war is over" and that a United Ireland can only be achieved via political means, then Sinn Fein will have to sit at Westminister at some point.



Republican Irish representatives have stood at Westminster before; it happened at the turn of the century and they used their small political mass to make and break bills passing through parliament. No doubt the same will be true once again.


Correct. Before home rule was introduced to Ireland (before the split), many Irish republicans stood at Westminister (one even got thrown out after get violent). And those republicans took the oath too.



posted on Aug, 13 2006 @ 01:27 PM
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Sorry for the misunderstanding Skadi-the-Evil-Elf
But if Sinn Fein don’t want to deport any Northern Islanders why are they (in your view) scum?

Personally I don’t have a problem with them if all they want is a united Island through free and democratic means. Of course this seems somewhat impossible as last time I heard the majority of Northern Islanders want to be British. Then again the populations demographics is changing; and apparently it could be majority catholic by the year 2025 www.newint.org...
Also argument is a powerful thing; and if Sinn Fein can convince people of the arguments and benefits in favour, then great. Not least because Northern Ireland costs the British taxpayer more than it raises in revenue!!
www.libertyhaven.com...
It’s a liability (although I also agree that all British liabilities should remain British as long as that’s what the majority of people there want).



posted on Aug, 14 2006 @ 12:39 PM
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I thought that the oath has been changed so that swearing allegiance to a Monarch was not part of it anymore (and not just for SF, the charade of many Scots Nat, Welsh and Labour MPs crossing fingers etc is pointlessly silly in this day and age, surely)?

I'd also point out that the British government actually wants a workable set of devolved institutions up and running, it is not them that are stopping or preventing the NI Assembly from working.
The NI institutions were 'suspended' rather than have them collapse and be destroyed as the Unionists threatened and surely would have done had the British government not suspended them.

As odd as it might seem the suspension saved the institutions, actually.

Much as SF's move to become a 'normal' political party is to be welcomed there are few political parties in the western world connected to a private army (they are after all the political wing of the IRA) only recently armed to the teeth and involved in a 30yr 'terrorist campaign'.

I'm happy and glad they are seeking to advance their cause by normal and democratic means, now, but you can't seriously expect anyone (except for a handful of either the politically motivated partial or the simply very ignorant) to simply accept they are 'just another normal political party' and NI is most certainly not 'just another normal state/province/region (or whatever your preference is to describe the place).

Even the government of the Irish Republic is not without reserve and qualification in terms of SF in the Dail.

The Irish PM Bertie Ahern publicly stated that he would not enter into coalition with SF for as long as there are matters still unresolved re the IRA, for instance (although the recent IRA weapons decommissioning must have hastened the day when SF are treated just as any other 'normal' political party).

It's also worth bearing in mind that almost all of the NI political parties have had links to arms and armed groups, few are completely without that 'linkage' (although rust has most probably taken care of all of the old guns the Ulster Unionist Partys predecessors were once connected to)....but certainly the DUP's periodic flirtations with various so-called 'loyalist' armed groups (who have not decommissioned at all and who show little likelihood as yet of doing so any time soon) also calls into question their claims to be 'normal democrats' too.

But there we are, those 2 (SF & the DUP) are currently the - by far - 2 biggest political parties in NI with the largest mandates (though neither has anything like majority support).

As for Westminster I think it might be that a half-way 'solution' to this is brought about - one might even say one is operating now with SF MP's meeting regularly with British gov officials, Ministers and PM - where SF MPs have contact with and inform government committees and policy etc without actually taking the oath or sitting in the British Parliament.
At least for the immeadiate future anyway.

As for whether or not any region or country in the UK is actually "a liability" financially?
This one makes me laugh.
It's so often trotted out whether the subject be Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland.

I think you can use all sorts of accountancy to prove whatever you like.

What you prefer to count or leave out can give a very different answer
but
I am quite certain that England would not have fought, at such great cost, for so long, so viciously and so hard to construct this 'UK' if it were not, all things considered, greatly to the benefit of England.



posted on Aug, 14 2006 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I thought that the oath has been changed so that swearing allegiance to a Monarch was not part of it anymore (and not just for SF, the charade of many Scots Nat, Welsh and Labour MPs crossing fingers etc is pointlessly silly in this day and age, surely)?


no, it never was changed (Blair said that back in 1997 when he let SF have offices at Westminster). But the oath doesn't mean what it use to (pre-cromwell) and its more of a "ill play nice" than anything. Sinn Fein shouldn't really be against taking it, its not they like are declaring to be monarchists and kissing the Queen's hand
most see it as swearing allegiance to Parliament (which the Queen doesn't like)

[edit on 14-8-2006 by infinite]



posted on Oct, 13 2006 @ 11:21 AM
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Did Gerry Adams just say he supported the Union during a press conference at St.Andrews?

you have to admire some of the things he said, his remarks were very suprising.



posted on Oct, 13 2006 @ 03:02 PM
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Looks like it's been another good day for NI.

There have been some welcome, surprisingly good and upbeat comments from almost all quarters.

Paisley was (particularly for him) reasonably positive and as you said infinite Adams was matching the constructive and considered mood.

(I'm sure I didn't catch Adams saying he supported the UK union, I did hear him talking about Irish union, 'green' and 'orange', eventually.)

I liked what I heard, he was talking about Irish republicans and nationalists not only holding an appreciation for their country folk who are 'orange' but eventual unity with them (which is the only position that could ever make any sense; the days of anyone on any 'side' in NI realistically 'thinking' or even day-dreaming they would - or ever could - forcibly drive 'the other' out have thankfully been left behind).

Even the UDA were in talks today about packing it all in (although their recent call for £8.5 million as 'community investment/payoff' - particularly when other priorities are so pressing was a tad galling).



posted on Oct, 14 2006 @ 04:51 AM
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I did hear him talking about the Irish Union, but i swear he was referring to the United Kingdom too when he was talking about a new relationship between Ireland and Britian.

He was very positive, even my Mother (who is from Northern Ireland and is a strong Unionist) was delighted with what Adams said. I do support Adams call for an Irish Language Act for Northern Ireland.

Overall, Friday 13th was a good day



posted on Oct, 15 2006 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
I did hear him talking about the Irish Union, but i swear he was referring to the United Kingdom too when he was talking about a new relationship between Ireland and Britian.


- Don't suppose you've any idea of where it might be found, I'd be interested in hearing it again?

Maybe you're referring to the east-west 'Council of the Isles' arrangements (pretty much the unsung part of the GF agreement)?


He was very positive, even my Mother (who is from Northern Ireland and is a strong Unionist) was delighted with what Adams said.


- I think only the most deaf and blind bigot would try and deny that republicans have moved substantially during this process - as have they all.
Paisley has had to face moving from idiot ideas and formal campaigns about 'smashing SF' to power-sharing with them.


I do support Adams call for an Irish Language Act for Northern Ireland.


- I agree, I feel no more 'threatened' by this (?
) than I do dual language use anywhere else on the planet.

Mind you I do find that invented nonsense 'Ulster Scots' embarrassing.
Talk about 'they have a 'native' language they get funding towards so we have to have one'.
If they insist on having it I suppose they must but it is ridiculous IMO.
Talking English in a heavy Ballymena accent isn't a language (as linguistics experts from Queens have even publicly said).
But hey ho. This wee place, eh?


BTW did you ever hear what happened when they put up dual language road signs on the Newtownards Rd in east Belfast - they were with English and 'Ulster Scots'?
The locals tore them down cos they thought they were having Irish Gaelic forced upon them!


Overall, Friday 13th was a good day


- Yeah, it happens (sometimes).


[edit on 15-10-2006 by sminkeypinkey]



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