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Are safe cluster weapons/alternatives possible?

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posted on Aug, 15 2006 @ 01:10 PM
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There's another similarity in that an FAE is the only thing other than a nuke that delivers a pulse with extended duration - still only a fraction of a second but it makes a big difference in lethality.

But I would still say that the comparison with nukes is misleading, as even when we're talking about tactical devices we're talking about something much bigger.


The 500m x 500m FAE demo sounds impressive, but did it do any more damage than the equivalent weight in cluster munitions?

And you could cover that sort of area very thoroughly with 25 CLAWS = 1600 lbs of munitions which is a fairly light load, you could put that on a UAV these days...




posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 03:19 AM
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Originally posted by Wembley

There's another similarity in that an FAE is the only thing other than a nuke that delivers a pulse with extended duration - still only a fraction of a second but it makes a big difference in lethality.

But I would still say that the comparison with nukes is misleading, as even when we're talking about tactical devices we're talking about something much bigger.


The 500m x 500m FAE demo sounds impressive, but did it do any more damage than the equivalent weight in cluster munitions?

And you could cover that sort of area very thoroughly with 25 CLAWS = 1600 lbs of munitions which is a fairly light load, you could put that on a UAV these days...


I think you're missing my point.

I said that IMO, FAEs would be the ideal weapon for use against the Hisbollah rocket and missile sites because, in an rural setting, cluster munitions would simply be overkill. That is still my position.

In an urban context, cluster munitions are a non-event. The so called collateral damage caused by conventional ordnance is bad enough but that caused by cluster sub-munitions would be horrendous. This, coupled with the fact that many fail to detonate, also creates a contact hazard for many years to come.

I suppose that in many ways, if you advocate the use of cluster sub-munitions in an urban environment, then why not get the Israelis to seed the areas with mines?

This conflict escalated to beyond anything Hisbollah could have imagined. I suspect that their intelligence [if they have any] seriously underestimated the Israeli responce.



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 02:45 PM
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RedMatt,

>>
Lets skip the part where we use military force for the purpose of mass murder.
>>

Mass murder as opposed to killing of illegal combattants is impossible to differentiate in a 4GW. In the mid 1800's the 'CSI' for the Cavalry was the Indian Scout. He didn't have to tell what tribe. How many. Or even the specifics of what killed a given isolated settler. All's he had to do was say "How many days ago."

And every tribe within that limit suffered. Until it became clear that the reservation was the only way to avoid extinction as a culture.

Today, the Israelis don't have the luxury of waiting for UCAVs of -any- form to become operational. You win the fight you brung. And that means elite infantry too dispersed for Hezbollah to mass against. And to deep for them to run past.

And going in, as infantry, _with honest bravery and heavy air support_ to find these vehicles, trap and kill their users in a gruesome fashion and make sure that nobody watching from the sidelines got to thinking they were 'separate from the enemy they hosted' (and who recruits from among them) would be a blatant statement about how Israel finishes the fight that someone else brings.

>>
We tried that in WWII, and while it forced Germany to re-allocate it's resources towards defense that's not going to be an issue for Hezbollah (their principal support for both finance and arms is Iran, they can get by just fine without Lebanon).
>>

Blather. An F-16 usind CDIP can put six bombs through the roofs of six houses. After dropping one leaflet cannister which explained what the consequences of killing an Israeli soldier would be. Area Bombing as a function of 'dehousing' the German populace was not an act of precision. It did not punish those immediately involved with any particular hostile act. It was a result of poor weather and primitive technology plus a lack understanding in how to win a 3GW by isolating transport and fuels.

More importantly Hezbollah NEEDS Lebanon. If they lose, again, and are driven from the field, they lose the banner of 'freedom' by which they inspire terror. Indeed, Lebanese NEEDED TO SEE another PLO evacuation to Tunis. Needed to realize that these were the 'lucky ones' who LIVED SOMEWHERE ELSE. So that they had cause to break the ties that not only bind but cut them to ribbons.

In this, the financing is only tangential. 4GW requires that you /change their minds/. And there is nothing like seeing Hezbollah back in Syria with the rest of their modernday Hashishen butchers to bring the point across that it's _time to rule your own house_.

Right now, all the countrified hicks of Lebanon (and the rest of the Arab world) are buying Hezbollah posters. Signing up for Hezbollah reconstruction funds. CHEERING Hezbollah. Not because what Hezbollah did was right. But because the Arabs have a collective inferiority streak a mile wide resulting from active neglect by their governments and the perception that nobody gives a damn about the poor dumb redheaded neighbors of the golden-haired Israelis.

It's better that they RETAIN that point of view until they decide to stop kidnapping and murdering. Because that is unacceptable behavior from those who wish to proclaim their freedom and equality with the West.

>>
And past bombing efforts actually strengthened people's desire to fight... as seems to be the case now in Lebanon.
>>

This is CNN blather designed to make people think that the Lebanese are 'noble savages'. The fact is, they are just savages. And like any primitive people, they think their politics and their religion works so long as they can evangelize at the point of a gun without equal rejoinder.

>>
South Africa faced near-total isolation for aparthide, and what your advocating is far more brutal than what took place there. Israel would loose the international support it depends on for it's very existance. It's hypocritical that Israel must respond with restraint against unguided weapons launched at it's cities, but that's the rules they're stuck with.
>>

Actually no. It would be very much on point and while similar, operationally, to the South African 'externals' against the ANC and like groups would have nothing to do with racial inequality. And everything to do with hitting the EXACT targets you were after. Nothing more or less.

If a fighter bombs a building whose occupants are shooting at U.S. Soldiers in Iraq or which call-in snitches have stated house terrorists, nobody thinks twice. The difference being that the Israelis won't lose their foes in the crowd of a major urban center like Fallujah or Ramadi. And _the more who come to the party_ trying to break the Israeli siege, the easier it is to sort the goats from the sheep on sheer proximity.

You would be /amazed/ how quiet a rebellious city becomes when airpower or arty is positioned to obliterate resistance on a block by block basis.

OTOH, when you bomb empty 'Hezbollah Offices' (the new millenium equivalent to 'suspect truck parks') in the heart of a city that you lose your credibility. Because, given the OVERWHELMING weight of evidence that says this was a planned op (aka sucker bet) these were empty of anyone important at least 30 days ago

Note too that the French are playing a dangerous game as they attempt to steal the world stage by first sleeping with the Americans, 'one leg on the floor', and then cutting loose to crawl into bed in supporting the Arabs. Not only is their own poor-muslim minority too large to change their minds again 'as convenient to the next moment' but they don't constitute a large enough element of UNIFIL nor have enough sway with other UN peacekeeper contributors to back up their words.

Just look at Kofi Annan's 'dazed and faraway' (lying and too ashamed to look the camera in the lens as he says it) expression as he states that "As many UN forces will be on the ground as soon as possible. Not immediately, but soon."

The Lebanese Army will not police Hezbollah. They will wink and nod with open arms. France doesn't /care/ what happens so long as they gain political gravitasse in the short term (spite for Iraq). Which is a good thing because they are being played for new-girlfriend-as-whore to be passed around by the Arabs and Persians anyway.

Meanwhile, by making it look like you've leashed the Israelis, to the ARAB EYES they have merely rolled on their backs and exposed their throats to the next push. Because Arabs and particularly Muslims don't care about their own dead. Only hurting a designated enemy declared by fathwa.

Which means that there is ANOTHER fight on the horizon. Just as soon as the Iranians have nukes. And/or the DMZ in force in South Lebanon fails.

>>
So here's a more practical question: someone with zero military experiance (me) was able to predict the shoot-and-scoot tactics needed to dodge counterbattery fire. And CNN is apparently able to catch the launch vehicles in action.

So why can't Israel hit the launchers, if the tactics are already a foregone conclussion?

Sensors shouldn't be the limitation. We've got SAR, MMw radar, imaging IR, LIDAR, electro-optical systems... a combination of which should be able to see through any camoflage or folliage they might try to hide the launchers under.

Presence shouldn't be a problem. We've got UAVs that can handle 24-hour patrols with room to spare. "Parking" a sensor suite over likely launch positions should be simple considering there's no real air-defenses in Lebanon. Which would eliminate the effectiveness of shoot-and-scoot (scooting just makes you easier to sport with SAR doppler shift or IR from your running engine).
>>



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 02:46 PM
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>>
Which should make targeting the and destroying (just) the launch platforms fairly simple, even with something like Hellfires (which I know Israel has). And if you can kill the launchers after their first shot, or track them back to their reload points to destroy the entire logistics system, you could knock out Hezbollah's offensive capabilities altogether.

So where is Israel falling short? It seems like they've got the weapons... is the chain of command (kill chain? I think it's called) not able to react quickly enough to engage such short-lived targets? I know the US ability to rapidly "flex" fighters to new targets is something of a novel concept... does Israel lack this capability?
>>

It looks like a typical, ODS timeframe, 'IADS/C2, Special Targets, Transport, Infrastructure, Fielded Forces' five ring attack to me.

Hellfire is an AH-1/64 weapons system solution and as I keep telling people, you don't employ helos in depth over a solid trashfire threat. Their time on station and ability to shift between kill box type sectored patrols is too limited. As a 108lb weapon, I honestly don't know how many, if any, of the smaller UAVs (Searcher, Sniper, Hermes and Micro-V) are -at all- suited to weaponization and if they were, it would be in much the same manner as the Hunter with it's BUET/Viper Strike pairing of much lighter (35lb) weapons. OTOH, it should be possible for the Israelis to convert the Harpy drone to lethal attack on GPS relayed coordinates which in turn should be available via combined Search/Hermes onboard GPS/INS and Laser coordinate marking.

One thing is certain: 'We' cannot mean the U.S. 'We' (The People) should keep the Israeli's grubby mitts as far off our new aero industry as possible. This includes loans or purchases of the GA Predator series.

I would also say, from the configuration of their platforms (see LINKS) that the Israelis are clearly too fixated on optical solutions to their CAVU environment to have combined this with true thru-walls radar and IR options. Which means that, unless they get a low-graze lookin to a garage or house that has been 'converted' to a shelter, they may not be able to get much of a sightline. On any but actively firing MRL trucks. I don't know if the Israelis have found a replacement for the retired Maverick A/B we gave them or not but 'as is', a weapon in that category, from a standoff (beyond ridgeline = masked acoustic as well as visual target trace) point on a short popup is the only real solution for immediate precision attack. Nimrod was once an option, I don't know if it ever went into production or not.

In terms of an actual effects analysis from the visible portion of their campaign, I have my own opinion-

If you interdict conventional transport chokes /after/ telling the civillians to flee (which means that if the soldiers ever were in South Lebanon, as opposed to Syria or Iran, they aren't now) you have wasted your time and your credibility as being 'in a desperate search only for what is rightfully yours'.

If you don't put boots on the ground to IMMEDIATELY police up Hezbollah units (gas and other LTL technologies to force the capture scenario, preferably at night or whenever they rest) for a massive leveraging of MORE hostages for your soldiers immediate release 'or else', you instead make the enemy of convenience look like Lebanese civillians who are being killed because you are too blind or cowardly to go in and find real threats to parade in front of the camera to justify your own incursions ("This is the face of Hezbollah. Real prize ain't he? This is the converted civillian rocket truck they were driving. Now we have both. If our men are not returned, these ununiformed, illegal combatants will be among the first tried and executed as State Terrorists sponsored by Syria.").

If you give the enemy a fight within 10km of your border rather than saying "To hell with you, I'm gonna /own/ the dirt behind your position and _make you look like idiots_ for fighting along a Lebanese Maginot Line border position rather than the one _I_ declare to now be the border of Israel and Lebanon." (hold ground without engagement) you make it look like your forces are impotent rather than cautious. In a battle with the clock having more in common with Bastogne than the Bekaa.

If you fail to make terrible, unapologetic, come-see, THIS IS MY WAR FACE examples (every building leveled) of villages like Bin Jbail _before_ they become symbols of 'how the Resistence struggled!' (Warsaw Ghetto if not Alamo like) /again/, you give the enemy _a memory_ of hope that "If we just hold out long enough..." it will put the fight on a UN schedule rather than the Israelis.

The Israelis should have been deep inside Lebanon within 2-3 hours of the hostage taking, even if it was just as a 'seen on a hilltop' SOF jeep force brought in by CH-53. Redoubling the image of the IDF as a spook-troop that are 'everywhere and nowhere', panicking the superstitious and easily cowed Arab minds who were clearly expecting just what they got.

They should have told Syria that if Hezbollah did not come clean with their troops _alive and well_ that the IDFAF would be visiting Damascus, center of the Hezbollah movement and specifically the head of the snake. And they should have kept their word, within the first 24hrs. Using Popeye and Delilah Optical versions to nail that snake head in place. So that it was clear that the Israelis were not afraid to attack the money trail or to make the SYRIANS pay equally for sponsoring this _Terrorist_ organization. Again, the world loves people who don't take # or shiite from /anyone/ Israel played milk toast along American lines and were instantly blamed for 'hurting the poor dumb Lebanese cattle'. Rather than _humiliating_ the STRONGEST foe they could on a give them back or WE WILL BE BACK basis of engagement.

Back in Lebanon, the fight they SHOULD have picked was that based on a deliberate misinformation effort EXPLOITING the media: "They are being held at X" (Maroun Al Ras for a preference) and then they should have used informers to leak specific operational details to the Hezbollah. "We are coming for them too."

And when said unit came, it should have sat 5,000m short of the objective and _levelled the entire place_. Population included. Before going in by helicopter afterwards to plant the evidence of a gunfight on the smoking rubble.

"Sigh, it was an ambush, we barely made it out with our lives...".

To spike the symmetry of a Mogadishu image. The bad guys take hostages and then lure the good guys into a slaughter. Except _the Israelis_ are 'way out of your league son'. And hit a village they knew to be empty of friendlies. Only to make the slaughter look like a rescue mission gone awry. But still a slaughter. So that Hezbollah had to ACT or lose their own face.

Put the field into motion. Confuse and startle your opponent by doing things which gain dominant position without necessarily seeming to have much direct tactical advantage. NEVER attack a position of predictable strength (this goes back to Sun Tzu folks). And then, when you are outside the parameters of THEIR GAME PLAN, start turning up the pressure. Sector by Sector. "I'm sorry, we are not at liberty to say WHERE the IDF is at. We will not compromise an ongoing security operation." Even if there is NO ONE in a given area. Making the Arabs look like the mindless thugs they are as THEY try to play catchup. As THEY have to resurvey the battlefield on an explore-fix-engage-exploit basis of organized tactics which they are STILL too damn sloppy and ill-equipped to execute as a combined arms MANEUVER force in their own rear areas, outside of the very narrow, fixed, fighting positions along the borders natural AA fire lanes.



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 02:47 PM
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CONCLUSION:
The Israelis have spent a decade trying to be like the Americans. Tech-heavy in the fixed wing fires department and next to worthless in the loitering Armed-ISR one. They (appear) to have lost all the technical edge with UAVs that they showed in the Bekaa in '82. As an element of this (low MEP payloads), they DO NOT appear to be able to FOPEN up the battlefield in looking under hardcover or through sophisticated C3D. Or pinning down threats that are using short duration S&S tactics. Suggesting perhaps that the Arabs have either come up with a way to jam their LINKS or have something akin to an ADADS to warn of the approach of even small air vehicles. Or that, as you suggest, the kill chain between the drone, the artillery and the MRLs is not wired up properly. I am also disappointed in the degree of night ops and truly supportive combined arms tactics being used. It looks like the Israelis have completely lost the notion of JFACC supplying assets to a _coordinated air:land battle plan_ to engage targets in 4D, preferring to keep the IDFAF beyond the pale of a fixed FSCL. Again something which would never have happened in 1982. Part of this may have been due to the urgent need to kill the longer ranging (up to 200km) heavy systems deeper in-country. But there is no excuse for a near-zero S2A threat not being exploited using blitzkrieg tactics to make sure that the ground forces who were acting as bait goats had an observer behind them calling in air on the firing signatures that the threat exposed. Air opens up breakout conditions more effectively than any other element because it comes _from seeming nowhere_ and gives the threat no option to engage on one dimensional line only. The competence and esprit de corps of the Israeli armored corps in particular seems surprisingly weak. Platoon commanders responsible for a 10 tank Merkava force getting 'surprised' by visually cued IED/LAW (go cross country, smoke and frag the bushes and secure the A/A with cav units and MPs or _move at night_!) and then exiting their vehicles to cry over fallen comrades rather than continuing the mission to the _assigned_ collection point where they were supposed to serve as armored casevac for an already exposed force in Bin Jbail. Instead, said commander routed his force 'from the lead' and ran back to the border without a coordinated withdrawal plan and a fighting compartment too filled with own-troop casualties to fight the tanks weapons. Moron.

If the Israelis are not doing this deliberately, then they are certainly painting a great big 'L' on their foreheads because the Arabs only stand down when beaten bloody and knowing they have no hope for survival if they don't 'end this round' by running away first. Even a costly victory without the return of the Israel soldiers will embolden them to new heights of viciousness, this time behind a screen of mixed UN/Lebanese forces who DO have the force mass and organization to secure-in-depth against the kinds of commando raiding I suggested above.

I can only suspect that the IDF are or were faced with so many shortranged Katyushas level MRLs of such unexpectedly improved propellant densities as to be saturated in their wombat hunting abilities. And so panicked in trying to defend their cities rather than the collective BATTLE HONOR (we _do not lose_) of the State Of Israel.

Again, lacking proper ISR to map and look-thru entire settlements buildings and sophisticated camouflage, this can only suggest that you are back to road-recce suppression by Jet Noise with fixed wings nominally performing NTISR but actually only on rotating sky-hole boring missions. Yet it appears they didn't even do that well because this is the ONE area where Israel should have been tooting her own horn as honestly and openly as possible. And she did not.


KPl.


LINKS-
MRL in Lebanese Village (apparently not everyone is asleep at the stick but more of them are Israeli than Hezbollah).
www.youtube.com...

Israeli UAVs
www.vectorsite.net...

Hermes 450, Max Payload of 150kg and no hardpoints under the wings.
uav.navair.navy.mil...



posted on Aug, 17 2006 @ 06:39 PM
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War as a PR battle. There's an ironic concept, but also pretty accurate I think.

Your form of advertising is to show war as too horrific for a population to bear: "we'll fight if you start it, but it'll be the most gruesome thing you ever saw." Setting aside morality (you kinda have to, to think about this), I doubt many have the stomach to carry through such an operation. And argue for it all you want, no one's going to stand for that level of brutality. That's all the effort I'll out into that debate though... as I doubt we'll change each other's minds over an internet forum.

I am going to present my own (ideal) approach however: all weapons today go "bang." And anything that goes bang is producing noise (accoustic/overpressure signature), heat (IR signature) and easily detectable radar doppler shifts. Which means that the moment your enemy fires, he announces his position to anyone/everyone close enough to listen.

If you have adequate sensors/coverage and weapons that can be brought to bear in time, you can ensure that anyone who tries to shoot at you gets off only one "shot" before he's hit with precision counterfire. So if Hezbollah rolls out two MLRS trucks for an S&S attack, the first launcher is destroyed by a UAV-launched hellfire after it's first salvo, and the second is destroyed fleeing the scene.

And on the propaganda front, you can counter CNN.com's "crying victems, front and center" with footage of the launchers being destroyed, to demonstrate what the violence is accomplishing. Which also works Hezbollah, because they'll quickly figure out that rocket attacks are suicide missions. And even if that's acceptable for them, they don't have the numbers to sustain that kind of fight.

As far as a ground invasion goes... I'll simply say that I'm a fan of "the Powell doctrine," that Israel should have either stuck to the air, or invaded with overwhelming force, and leave it at that.

But this is tilting away from technology and weapons/applications (which I enjoy) to fighting a specific war. And because I'm not a military man, that's a debate I'll bow out of.

P.S. I didn't mean to imply the use of attack Helos, I've read some of your anti-AH posts and I'm largely in agreement. What I hopped for was UAV-launched Hellfires, but looking at their inventory they apparently lack anything capable of that task. Which leaves me wondering, why are the considered UAV leaders? Compared to Predator and X-45C... Israel has plenty of small stuff, but nothing with the payload/endurance to match US-built stuff.



posted on Aug, 18 2006 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by fritz

I said that IMO, FAEs would be the ideal weapon for use against the Hisbollah rocket and missile sites because, in an rural setting, cluster munitions would simply be overkill. That is still my position.


I'd got for something a bit more targetted and less indiscriminate. There isn't really much at the 'launch site' except the launcher.


Originally posted by fritz
In an urban context, cluster munitions are a non-event. The so called collateral damage caused by conventional ordnance is bad enough but that caused by cluster sub-munitions would be horrendous.


Agreed, andf I think a lot of people are appalled by the Israelis using them.

Hence the need for weapons like CLAW, which is always going be be, pound for pound, much more effective than an FAE.


Originally posted by fritz
I suppose that in many ways, if you advocate the use of cluster sub-munitions in an urban environment, then why not get the Israelis to seed the areas with mines?


I think there's one poster here who wants to use the most horrific weapons possible, so I guess DU mines laced with toxic napalm would be about right.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:14 AM
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Wembley,

>>
Hence the need for weapons like CLAW, which is always going be be, pound for pound, much more effective than an FAE.
>>

You'll note that I am one of those who has 'long since' been advising of the death of heavy submunition weapons, even those nominally 'safe' for the deploying airpower because they are high altitude capable like the CBU-11x (WCMD) and AGM-154 guided weapons. Simply because I _KNOW_ that you need to be able to service targets spread beyond the realistic ability of any single CBU coverage pattern. Over extended timeframes made loiter-difficult by the carriage of 1,000-1,500lb cluster weapons. And most importantly because, **CBUs Cost More Than Any Other Bomb**. You can buy a GBU-12 for about 19-21 grande last I checked. It costs 100 grande for a baseline CEM. And close the _350_ for an SFW.

Why do you think I've been arguing for an effective UCAV fleet to generate _COP_ or Continuous Overhead Presence? And a GBU-39/VSM (Small IAM anyway) DENSE payload ability to target multiple aimpoints HOURS as much as miles apart from each other?

>>
I think there's one poster here who wants to use the most horrific weapons possible, so I guess DU mines laced with toxic napalm would be about right.
>>

That had better not be me you're talking about. Because while I don't advocate blowing up empty buildings, NOR do I believe in attacking targets 'just because they're moving or in a bad part of town'.

Soldiers, particularly infantry, are just cannon fodder who exist to die for their country as 'symbolic statements' of who will give or take the most pointless and random-as-clumsy of tactical attritition while continuing to believe in their driving cause. But that doesn't mean they die for nothin'. If a truck moves and you stop it with Israeli checkpoints on a Lebanese road, it is just a matter of time before Hezbollah or some other high-on-himself religious nutcase decides to make a gun battle freeforall of things while you check a car full of women. Or himself runs a carbomb up.

Better by far you tell them DON'T MOVE A FREAKIN' MUSCLE. Because /then/, if they run, you can say you told them NOT to leave. NOT to take those two soldiers out of country. You haven't given up your POLITICAL advantage in being in Lebanon to begin with. Christ on freakin' crutch people, THINK!

OTOH, if you seal off a give area and either give the animals no place to run, you can starve them in place until they decide that dying for Allah, slowly, ain't worth it.

Or you can CHOOSE to take the risk, go into their turf on the basis of FINDING A LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGET. And if they fight back, it is _their straight-to-hell chit_ they are stamping. Because there is no legitimate purpose for an MRL in a civillian area. And they bloody well know it. And the Israelis will FIND it, whether they walk down a street lined with quiet buildings. Or ones that have been /made so/ by virtue of being leveled.

How many died in the Beirut and other attacks? 950? How many die enroute to the center of a village with 200 people in it? 50? 20? DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?! Die for a cause. KILL for a cause. But _Make Damn Well Certain You Have PROOF Of A Cause_.

And the world will quickly learn to laugh every time a bunch of freakin' Arab Hill Billys put up a fight against a REAL military and get their heads handed to them because the refuse to give up the MRL **They Know** is sending rockets into Israel.

4GW=Fourth Generation War. A war characterized by CHANGING THEIR MINDS rather than owning their lands. You CANNOT win such a war by abandoning the symbols of it's start (three Israeli grunts kidnapped from Israel's side of the line). Nor can you fail to call the BS what it is by being 'afraid' to do what has to be done, as bloody as the enemy cares to make it. For Themselves.

You want REAL attitude? You try reading this crap.

>>
Thursday, August 17, 2006 · Last updated 12:01 p.m. PT
Lebanese troops deploy; airport reopens
By LAUREN FRAYER
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

"There will be no confrontation between the army and brothers in Hezbollah. ... That is not the army's mission," said Information Minister Ghazi Aridi after the two-hour Cabinet meeting. "They are not going to chase or, God forbid, exact revenge" on Hezbollah.
,,,
That resolution clearly calls for the creation of a Hezbollah-free zone south of the Litani River, and anything less would mean that the resolution is not being implemented," he said.
The deployment, while falling short of U.N. and Israeli insistence on Hezbollah's disarmament, is a major step in meeting demands that militants be removed from the Jewish state's northern frontier. The army deployment marks the extension of government sovereignty over the whole country for the first time since 1969, when a weak Lebanese government sanctioned Palestinian guerrilla cross-border attacks on Israel.
Under the cease-fire agreement that has been in effect since Monday, Israel was to transfer control of its positions in southern Lebanon to the U.N. force known as UNIFIL, which would then turn them over to the Lebanese army. The U.N. plan calls for the Lebanese force to reach 15,000 and to be joined eventually by an equal number of international peacekeepers to patrol the region between the Israeli border and the Litani River.
President Jacques Chirac announced Thursday that France will immediately double to 400 troops its contingent in the peacekeeping force in Lebanon, which it leads.
...
The Lebanese government ordered the army to "insure respect" for the Blue Line, the U.N.-demarcated border between Lebanon and Israel, and "apply the existing laws with regard to any weapons outside the authority of the Lebanese state."
That provision does not require Hezbollah to give up its arms, but rather directs them to keep them off the streets.
The Cabinet session to implement the cease-fire was twice delayed because two Hezbollah members of the government objected to enforcement of the key U.N. demand that the guerrilla force be disarmed.
Hezbollah's top official in south Lebanon issued the strongest indication yet that the guerrillas would not disarm in the region or withdraw, but rather melt into the local population and hide their weapons.
...
That resolution clearly calls for the creation of a Hezbollah-free zone south of the Litani River, and anything less would mean that the resolution is not being implemented," he said.
Under the cease-fire agreement that has been in effect since Monday, Israel was to transfer control of its positions in southern Lebanon to the U.N. force known as UNIFIL, which would then turn them over to the Lebanese army. The U.N. plan calls for the Lebanese force to reach 15,000 and to be joined eventually by an equal number of international peacekeepers to patrol the region between the Israeli border and the Litani River.
President Jacques Chirac announced Thursday that France will immediately double to 400 troops its contingent in the peacekeeping force in Lebanon, which it leads.
>>


IMPORTANT THINGS TO NOTE:

The French are not going to do a damn thing with 400 men. And when the 'other 14,600' don't show. Peace will end on the basis of their having 'made a statement' (stabbing the joint U.S. French initial peace agreement in the back) that they lack the balls or the guns to back up.

The Lebanese are not in charge of their own government. They fail to realize or accept that Hezbollah is NOT run from Lebanon. But from Syria and Iran. OTOH, they also fail to note the Hezbollah _is_ civillian so when you hide civillian criminals among civillian citizens, they are GOING TO GET HURT.

The Lebanese Army are scared of Hezbollah. They also admire them the same way a boy admires a bully so long as he only gets to watch the violence and not be it's victim.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:16 AM
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There will be no disarming only a polite inconspicuity. Which means the next time X# of Israeli soldiers 'disappear' they will still be able to come right back out and do the exact same thing. And the Lebanese government, with 2 Hezbollah ministers on it's cabinet and at least 3 seated members of Parliament, will do NOTHING. Just like they did in 1969. They are, effectively, the same as PLO Chief Yasser Arafat. Talking rage against violation of sovereignity out one side of their mouth. And smiling meakly to extranational terrorists who recruit their own people to engage in 'privateer' warfare on their borders.

And they know it. And they never want to change it because this balance of power without legal responsibility is the way the Arab world works. It's called 'Waxing The Mustaches' and it's sole purpose is to maintain strife and corruption, not end it.


>>
"The army is good, I'm glad they're here," said Awad, who has lived here for 50 years _ most of the time Israel has been in existence.
He was asked if he supported Hezbollah.
"I'm Lebanese. I don't like Hezbollah ... . I love Lebanon only _ not America, not Iran and not Syria _ just Lebanon," he said, listing the key backers of the combatants in the war.
The area of Lebanon's border with Israel was in ruins. In the towns of Adaisse and Taibeh, south and west of Kfar Kila respectively, it was difficult to find a building that was not blackened, pockmarked by artillery or flattened altogether.
...
"I am a Hezbollah fighter, and this is my town," proclaimed 35-year-old Ahmed, who declined to give his full name because he feared retribution from Israel. His voice echoed off the shells of vacant, gnarled buildings in Adaisse's main square.
Ahmed pointed to one charred building after another. "That is where 18 of them (Israeli soldiers) died, and five more there," he said, pointing to buildings off the town square. "That over there is my business, a bookshop."
"Why did they (the Israelis) come? Why did they do this?" Ahmed screamed, his cement block house in shambles. "Next time the Israelis come, we'll fight again for sure." He broke open a 6-pack of mineral water he said he snatched from next to the bodies of Israeli soldiers killed days ago here.
>>

www.chron.com...


Welcome to a world where DECENT PEOPLE don't kidnap across borders and then NOT expect to reap what they have sewn. How can this freakin' hypocrite say he is the face of Hezbollah and /brag/ about killing people in his home town and then WONDER why destruction came from his fighting a force that came to stop the rocket attacks originating from HIS side of the border? Moron. Don't fight. Let the Jews come get their precious MRLs. Don't endorse or support or JOIN those who kidnap. And maybe you won't bleep where you sleep.


>>
The Lebanese government announced Wednesday that its forces would confiscate only Hezbollah weapons carried in public. Statements by Lebanese leaders have showed a deep split over how to deal with Hezbollah, the most powerful of the country's political and armed factions.
Walid Jumblatt, leader of Lebanon's Druse community, warned at a news conference Thursday that "dangers could be looming" unless Hezbollah fighters integrate into the regular army. "Why can't the army be responsible for holding the balance of power?" Jumblatt said. "Why can't the rockets be under the command of the army?"
In Houla, a village near the Israeli border, some residents climbed to the roof of a home, waving Hezbollah flags and jeering at Israeli Merkava tanks about a half-mile away in a valley.
Arzeh Joumaa, 28, one of the Houla residents on the roof, said she opposes efforts to make Hezbollah give up its arms and doubted the cease-fire would last.
"There won't be peace," said Joumaa, who works at the port in Tyre. "Peace has to start with love between us and the Israelis. How can we love them when they kill civilians?"
>>

www.usatoday.com...

Now we see where this is really headed. Why the Syrians 'felt free to leave' two years ago. Hezbollah is Syria. And Hezbollah is Lebanon. And by 'integrating with the military'. Soon they will be right back to being only 'true' (legalized) force in ALL Lebanon.


Now, 'for a balanced view'... Here Come The Jews. And what a freak show it is-

>>
Large numbers fled the south after Israelis dropped leaflets warning of attacks. Others have been unable to leave, often because they have not found the means. The Israelis have taken that to mean that they are therefore Hezbollah.
Israeli justice minister Haim Ramon announced on Israeli army radio Thursday that "all those in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah."
Justifying the collective punishment of people in southern Lebanon, Ramon added, "In order to prevent casualties among Israeli soldiers battling Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon, villages should be flattened by the Israeli air force before ground troops move in."
This policy explains the large number of wounded in the hospitals of Sidon in the south..
Wounded people from southern Lebanon narrate countless instances of indiscriminate attacks by the Israeli military.
Thirty-six-year-old Khuder Gazali, an ambulance driver whose arm was blown off by an Israeli rocket, told IPS that his ambulance was hit while trying to rescue civilians whose home had just been bombed.
"Last Sunday people came to us and asked us to go help some people after their home was bombed by the Israelis," he said from his bed in Hamoudi Hospital in Sidon, the largest in southern Lebanon. "We found one of them, without his legs, lying in a garden, so we tried to take him to the nearest hospital."
On way to the hospital an Israeli Apache helicopter hit his ambulance with a rocket, severely injuring him and the four people in the back of the vehicle, he said.
"So then another ambulance tried to reach us to rescue us, but it too was bombed by an Apache, killing everyone inside it," he said. "Then it was a third ambulance which finally managed to rescue us."
>>

www.countercurrents.org...


The mistake the Israelis made was in letting the so called civillians flee. Because if you tell these people that they are instead in a state of LOCKDOWN and anything which they do, to try and leave, by car or foot, is subject to attack. And anything which they do to interfere with Israelis coming to confiscate their illegal MRLs will be treated as the Hague and Geneva Conventions ALLOW-

>
(Neutral Powers)
Art. 2.
Belligerents are forbidden to move troops or convoys of either munitions of war or supplies across the territory of a neutral Power.

Art. 4.
Corps of combatants cannot be formed nor recruiting agencies opened on the territory of a neutral Power to assist the belligerents.
Art. 17.
A neutral cannot avail himself of his neutrality
(a) If he commits hostile acts against a belligerent;
(b) If he commits acts in favor of a belligerent, particularly if he voluntarily enlists in the ranks of the armed force of one of the parties. In such a case, the neutral shall not be more severely treated by the belligerent as against whom he has abandoned his neutrality than a national of the other belligerent State could be for the same act.
Art. 20.
The provisions of the present Convention do not apply except between Contracting Powers and then only if all the belligerents are Parties to the Convention.

(Laws and Customs Of Land Warfare)



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:17 AM
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Article 1
The laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps, fulfilling the following conditions:
To be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
To have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance;
To carry arms openly; and
To conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
In countries where militia or volunteer corps constitute the army, or form part of it, they are included under the denomination "army."

Art. 2.
The inhabitants of a territory which has not been occupied, who, on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading troops without having had time to organize themselves in accordance with Article 1, shall be regarded as belligerents if they carry arms openly and if they respect the laws and customs of war.

Art. 5.
Prisoners of war may be interned in a town, fortress, camp, or other place, and bound not to go beyond certain fixed limits, but they cannot be confined except as in indispensable measure of safety and only while the circumstances which necessitate the measure continue to exist.

Art. 22.
The right of belligerents to adopt means of injuring the enemy is not unlimited.
Art. 25.
The attack or bombardment, by whatever means, of towns, villages, dwellings, or buildings which are undefended is prohibited.

Art. 45.
It is forbidden to compel the inhabitants of occupied territory to swear allegiance to the hostile Power.
>

www.yale.edu...

In no way has Hezbollah declared itself be a functional element of the LEBANESE ARMY. Nor are they commanded by a legaly constituted chain of command WITHIN the realm they claim to 'protect'. In fact they are /headquartered/ in Syria. Nor do they bear arms openly or readily visible identification, as proven by the REAL Lebanese Army mandate to confiscate those weapons if carried in public.

Indeed, _having no declared country or state as a point of allegiance_ THEY CANNOT BE CONTRACT MEMBERS OF THE HAGUE CONVENTIONS. As such, NONE of the rules of war apply to them. Even though Israel is itself a signatory member-

www.pca-cpa.org...

Until you make the Lebanese see, directly, what it will cost them to when the bookseller picks up his AK-47. So that THE WORLD sees how the IDF attacks village CENTERS looking for and finding military gear. SPECIFICALLY to take pictures of Israeli troops smiling at the removal of another guerilla weapons system.

Hezbollah will never be put in the perspective it deserves to be seen at: between a rock and a hard spot in terms of "Where do guerillas get heavy conventional weapons and WHY do guerillas constantly snipe like cowards from behind a screen of civillians."

CONCLUSION:
Red Matt I hope you're listenin' in because here's how it goes: As smart as you are, you can't possibly talk weapons engineering 'separate from how you fight a war.' Only an /idiot/ would think otherwise because weaponeering is _all about_ matching the kill mechanism to the target and tactical conditions you expect to find it in.

Wembley, this is for you: Don't you DARE call me a random or habitual butcher. Because the fact of the matter is that I _think_ about how to fight a 4GW. I REALIZE that there are times when the /only way to win/ is to make the entire ENEMY populace subject to the rules the make for themselves. That they will not expel those who bring terror to other nations because it is safer to accept bribe money to stay and rebuild what is broken. That they will shelter those who would do great harm elsewhere without uniform or legal recourse in demanding that they obey the Laws and Customs of Land Warfare. In the belief that it WILL NOT come back to haunt them too. And most importantly, that the difference between mass casualties and the price of WAR is **specifically inherent** to the notion that /when/ 'what goes around comes around'. It is up to the Terrorists to yield. Not the uniformed men and women who come to end their criminal attacks with the weight of International Law behind them.

If Hezbollah, as represented by LEBANESE CIVILLIANS will not stand down and take the humiliation of being stripped of their big-boy toys like the manipulative children they are. IN THE VIEW of those who 'think them so heroic'.

Then the LEBANESE need to see the consequences of that too. Right up close and personal.

Even slaughter has a use if it ENDS a given illegal act.

It is when you try to save lives in the short term while prolonging the conflict in the long that you ultimately _increase the total casualty count for nothing_. Which is why, having no been humiliated as much as defeated for BEING WRONG, when Hezbollah or Hamas or their Syranian leashholders think enough time has gone by, they will do it again. On some other justification. And the Arab Media in particular will only remember that 'few stood against many' nonsense in making heroes of the criminals. And fools of those who have to protect what criminals would destroy without consequence to themselves.

I can only hope that SOMEONE IN ISRAEL is also 'listening to what I write'. So that the next bunch of poor idiots who gets kidnapped are not written off in trade for bowing out of a bad political situation. A political situation brought on by inadequate weapons systems. Inadequate ISR. And inadequate doctrine which FAILS to hostage the behavior of the Lebanese Hezbollah to those that Israel **Forbids** from leaving the fight. Their neighbors. Their wives. Their kids.

Maybe then, the world will realize the difference between fighting a war the way terrorists want you to. And fighting a war to WIN. By making the civillians who literally back the terrorists by living with them CHOOSE between a peace that strips their young males of the right to be rabid wolves 'elsewhere'. Or dying when REAL soldiers come to take measure for those wolves predation.

If this happens, then there is a chance that we can press the terrorists back into their cages in Syria and Iran. That _their sponsoring countries_ might be forced to demobilize a dangerous political body before it becomes a virulent infection of their own social order.

If not. It will be clear that they and not the Good Guys are the ones who KNOW HOW TO FIGHT A FOURTH GENERATION WAR. And things will get worse. Because they will repeat.


KPl.



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 03:36 AM
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Heh... I'm lost. Done. Israel Lebannon Syria Iran has hit the point where I can't figure out who the hell thinks what when why where...

...yeah.

Hezbollah operates out of Lebannon, launches rockets and kidnaps soldies, and the average citizen wants to know why they got attacked? Are people that stupid or is the news really that heavily "tilted" over there?

And the UN response... the 400 people France is sending to the region is just one side of it. Apparently a number of countries sending troops refuse to acknowledge Israel's existance diplomaticaly. What kind of peacekeeping force is this supposed to be anyway?

I don't like the solution, and I can't see the current "arrangement" lasting long enough to be fully implemented before people start shooting at each other again and lots more end up dying...

... and that's it for this thread, time to admit there's really nothing else I can offer, I've reached the limits of my knowledge and ability to rationaly process what's going on... 'cause there's no logic to this situation.

G'night folks!

[edit on 19-8-2006 by RedMatt]



posted on Aug, 19 2006 @ 01:14 PM
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Originally posted by ch1466
You can buy a GBU-12 for about 19-21 grande last I checked. It costs 100 grande for a baseline CEM. And close the _350_ for an SFW.


CLAW is about $6k, so it wins on this count.




Originally posted by ch1466
And the world will quickly learn to laugh every time a bunch of freakin' Arab Hill Billys put up a fight against a REAL military and get their heads handed to them


I think the IDF has learned a lot of respect for Hizbollah fighters now, and you won't see that sort of language used next time.


Originally posted by ch1466
A war characterized by CHANGING THEIR MINDS rather than owning their lands.


Agreed. And it's hard to do that by blowing things up, and certainly not with weapons that leave dangerous unexploded submunitions around.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 03:01 AM
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As much as I just said I was done... my brain won't stop working even though I told it to, so a few additional throughts (That'll probably pull me back into the discussion, but oh well... that's why I'm here).

Wembley,

I think you misunderstand what CLAWs is intended to be. It's dimensionaly identical to a BLU-108, which makes me think it's intended as an alternate submunition load for the CBU-105 WCMD. So one "weapon" will be 10 CLAWs, which is going to mean massive and widespread damage on the ground. I'd consider that "overkill," and to be fair Israel's problem isn't having the right weapons availible.

The problem is they don't have the resources to tackle mobile launchers: spot them when the rockets are fired and track them long enough to score a hit. Israel doesn't have any UAVs that can carry a weapons load, and their jets can't stay airbone long enough (at least, not without tanker support) to act as an effective patrol force. And counterbattery fire is useless because the launchers will be out of the target area before any weapon fired from the ground could cover the distance.

So yeah CLAWs would be a great launch-vehicle killer, but if you've got an armed aircraft tover the launcher, you've already solved 99% of the problem. But why use an "area weapon," when you can hit the truck's exact location, and avoid spraying shrapnel all over a built up neighborhood?

Given Israel's resources, I'd use the UAVs availible as spotters, with jets ready to scramble once launch trucks were spotted. And I'd pick "smart rocks" for armament: LGBs with sand ballast to replace the HE fill. That's enough kinetic energy to smash any launcher, while leaving enough recognizeable wreckage to prove you hit what you were aiming for.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 06:24 AM
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Originally posted by RedMattWembley,

I think you misunderstand what CLAWs is intended to be. It's dimensionaly identical to a BLU-108, which makes me think it's intended as an alternate submunition load for the CBU-105 WCMD. So one "weapon" will be 10 CLAWs,


No, they're intended to be used individually. Textron are marketing this as a weapon for UAVs which can't carry 1,000 lb bombs but which can easily manage 100 lb.
Interestingly they are not marketing this as a competitor to traditional cluster bombs.


Originally posted by RedMattWembley,
Israel doesn't have any UAVs that can carry a weapons load,


Actually they do. There have been several mentions of armed IDF drones attacking targets, including one friendly-fire incident.


Originally posted by RedMatt
So yeah CLAWs would be a great launch-vehicle killer, but if you've got an armed aircraft tover the launcher, you've already solved 99% of the problem. But why use an "area weapon," when you can hit the truck's exact location, and avoid spraying shrapnel all over a built up neighborhood?

Given Israel's resources, I'd use the UAVs availible as spotters, with jets ready to scramble once launch trucks were spotted. And I'd pick "smart rocks" for armament: LGBs with sand ballast to replace the HE fill. That's enough kinetic energy to smash any launcher, while leaving enough recognizeable wreckage to prove you hit what you were aiming for.


I take your point, but the original question and thread title was whether there was a safer alternative to cluster bombs.

Yes, we would all like to see precision weapons used rather than area ones!



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Wembley

No, they're intended to be used individually. Textron are marketing this as a weapon for UAVs which can't carry 1,000 lb bombs but which can easily manage 100 lb. Interestingly they are not marketing this as a competitor to traditional cluster bombs.


Looks like we're both right actually. SFW and CLAW are designed to fit into the same space. But Textron is developing/offering a "Universal Dispenser" which can carry either a single CLAW or SFW "submunition," or a number of other payloads including first aid packs (looking at the .pdf), leaflets, or even ammunition for troops on the ground.

So I'm guessing CLAW is intended to be employed one at a time (using U-ADD) or en mass (WCMD). And right now they're emphasising the light-weight UAV-friendly deliver system, where traditional cluster weapons aren't an option.


Actually they do. There have been several mentions of armed IDF drones attacking targets, including one friendly-fire incident.


Your right, now that you mention it I remember at least one "almost friendly fire incident" mentioned on defensetech. Which is odd because I can't find any Israeli UAVs listed as "armed," except for HARPY which doesn't "open fire" so much as "kamikaze" its target.

So I did some looking around, and it looks like Israel does have "UCAVs," they're using RAFAEL's Spike missiles, 2 per larger UAV, which would seem to be just about ideal for the job.


I take your point, but the original question and thread title was whether there was a safer alternative to cluster bombs.


True, and you answered that quite nicely. I really do think CLAW is a very useful weapon and "safer" than the traditional "lots of bomblets" approach (both as a single weapon and in "batches" dispensed from WCMD). And against the right target it'd be perfect.

But yeah, I think any area weapon (FAE/Cluster/CLAW/etc.) is going to cause uneeded collatoral damage when used against Hezbollah's MRLs. However, I think what Israel has come up with (Spike missiles on Herons/Hunters) is a lot better than what I just suggested too...



posted on Aug, 21 2006 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by RedMatt
So I did some looking around, and it looks like Israel does have "UCAVs," they're using RAFAEL's Spike missiles, 2 per larger UAV, which would seem to be just about ideal for the job.


Flight International reckon they are Heron UAVs, and armed with Spike as you say.

Given persistence (ie long endurance) and lots of them, this is exactly the sort of thing you need for dealing with the rocket threat without killing lots of bystanders.



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