Is the UK our enemy?

This isn't a political debate and i do not understand the reasons for being reopened. This thread is designed to get member's attention and to cause problems, so why reopen it?

Its stupid*, and thats a nice way of putting it, the thread is about the UK being the enemy of America when the UK has stood by America on the international scene.

Please explain to me the "political debate" in this thread?

(*regarding the thread)

[edit on 12-8-2006 by infinite]

Hmmm, maybe the question should be: would Britain want to be friends with a country whose inhabitants exhibit such delusional paranoia?

And, indeed, whose inhabitants also helped finance decades of mass murder and terrorism against us I still think we should have acted like the Israelis and bombed New York in retaliation for the Birmingham pub bombings .... )

Thankfully us British don't hold grudges the same as some and accept that the majority aren't always responsible for the actions of a tiny minority

Originally posted by thesneakiod


So you're saying you dont want to be protected? Im all for somebody to try and
stop me from getting blown up. So i must be an enemy.

Protected from what? terrorist threats that the government itself had a hand in creating?

No, I do not want the government's "protection" from "evil terrorists" because the pirce is too high: my liberties, my privacy, and in general, human decency and dignity are what they want sacrificed for their "protection".

No thanks. Better to die on my feet than live on my knees.

There is one simple answer to this problem, honestly.

Ask what it is that divides the warring parties. An earlier poster mentioned the troubles in Northern Ireland. The problem there was/is exactly the same.

The unrest in Iraq is also down to the same problem, now that Saddam has been removed.

What is it then that is causing the unrest throughout the world? One simple answer; RELIGION.

Without religion many of the world's woes would be solved.

Northern Ireland is Protestant v Catholic, the Middle East is Muslim v Jew, Iraq is Sunni v Shia, all down to which version of 'God' you worship. Are there any peace loving Gods who would actually frown on their followers carrying out acts of violence and war? Or do they not mind providing you are not killing one of your own kind?

The sooner we realise that we are all from the same species and that there is more than enough to go round, then the sooner we will enjoy everlasting peace.

It seems to me that many religious leaders do not do nearly enough to condemn violence regardless of who has perpetrated it.

I am immensely proud of the country of my birth, I am very fond of the country in which I now live, and, as a very frequent visitor to the USA I love that country and its people too. In fact I can't think of any country I consider an enemy, although there are probably a few who would consider me as such because I don't happen to worship at the same temple/church/synagogue/mosque.

To answer the question 'Is the UK our enemy?' I would say most definitely not, we are without a doubt your closest friend in the world. If only we could enjoy the same closeness with other countries such as Syria, Iran, Indonesia and Afghanistan, but sadly we can't, all because of religion.

In case you hadn't guessed, I am also an atheist. I recognise and respect the right of freedom of religion totally, but, from where I am standing, it seems just to cause far more problems than it ever solves.

[edit on 12-8-2006 by Englishman_in_Spain]

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Protected from what? terrorist threats that the government itself had a hand in creating?

No, I do not want the government's "protection" from "evil terrorists" because the pirce is too high: my liberties, my privacy, and in general, human decency and dignity are what they want sacrificed for their "protection".

No thanks. Better to die on my feet than live on my knees.

No offence but I dont want my little sister and little cousins to die because some idiot with a rifle/bomb/grenade or whatever wants to to make a statement to world.

Personally I dont like violence. Its disgusting, horrible, driven by pure emotion but shaped by clear cold logic and cunning. Its a necessary evil unless we wish to die by the hands of people who ARE willing to sacrifice everything just to do what they feel is right.

I'd live on my hands and knees if that made my little sister and family safe, if you cant then thats your opinion and your morals I wont attempt to speak about them for only you can truely understand why you picked them.

Originally posted by devilwasp
No offence but I dont want my little sister and little cousins to die because some idiot with a rifle/bomb/grenade or whatever wants to to make a statement to world.

Well, no one wants family to die. Thats not the point. The point is overreaction and panic towards threats that may or maynot exist, and living your life under draconian security measures for this "safety".

Personally I dont like violence. Its disgusting, horrible, driven by pure emotion but shaped by clear cold logic and cunning. Its a necessary evil unless we wish to die by the hands of people who ARE willing to sacrifice everything just to do what they feel is right.

My problem isn't dealing with the use of violence. Im not adverse to violence, when used properly, as a last resort, and as a necessity. But the question is, just how big a threat are our enemies truly?

I'd live on my hands and knees if that made my little sister and family safe, if you cant then thats your opinion and your morals I wont attempt to speak about them for only you can truely understand why you picked them.

I think the way I do because to me, my life would not be worth living if it was in a world of constant surveilance and an unrestrained police state, where governemnts are allowed to collect your private data and keep a database on you. Where you have to submit to intrusive security measures everytime you leave your house. That is where all this terrorist hype and security measures are going. basically, an orwellian nightmare, all in the name of safety.

And that is not a world where life would be worth the effort of living.

And since the topic of this thread is about the UK, being an enemy of the US because British people tolerate Muslims as fellow human beings instead of crazy, homicidal nutjobs bent on world domination and jihad, as certain elements of right wing America would have us believe, you might see my point here.

Its this mentality of "security" over liberty and panic about possible terrorist plots that breeds a mentality where people would consider britian, the only ally we have left on the planet, as a "terrorist threat" because the british people simply do not believe all Muslims are evil.

Fear of boogeymen gives birth to alot of irrational, and ultimately, inhuman thoughts and beliefs, and ultimately, action.

The OP actually - inadvertently - brings about an interesting question.

Are we going to see an entire generation of paranoid Americans, spoon fed on selective propaganda, poorly educated about the world and its peoples, who believe that anyone who doesn't subscribe to the American way and the "accepted" christian religion is inferior and needs to be wiped out?

Thats a chilling thought.

Apolitical Alliance?

Originally posted by infinite
This isn't a political debate and i do not understand the reasons for being reopened. This thread is designed to get member's attention and to cause problems, so why reopen it?

I consider U.S.-U.K. relations to be a political topic, and the topic in this case quite germane to the Politics of War.

A member has expressed an opinion which has been and is being expressed elsewhere.

I think the fact that questions like this are being asked is a matter worthy of further examination.

Does that mean I personally agree with the thesis of this thread? No, not at all.

That doesn't mean it isn't worthy of discussion, however.

If members have such questions, I think they should feel free to ask them openly, and that we should be able to discuss them rationally.

Yes, I have that much faith in us.

Originally posted by devilwasp
No offence but I dont want my little sister and little cousins to die because some idiot with a rifle/bomb/grenade or whatever wants to to make a statement to world.

Personally I dont like violence. Its disgusting, horrible, driven by pure emotion but shaped by clear cold logic and cunning. Its a necessary evil unless we wish to die by the hands of people who ARE willing to sacrifice everything just to do what they feel is right.

I'd live on my hands and knees if that made my little sister and family safe, if you cant then thats your opinion and your morals I wont attempt to speak about them for only you can truely understand why you picked them.

DW, with respect, i think your over reacting. At the height of the Troubles, i lived in NI and I am alive today.

The actual risk of getting caught up in a terrorist attack are less than you getting hit by a bus.

Should we ban buses? Or start a WoB? Go carrying out airstrikes against Leyland Daf plants that make buses?

No, it's a silly idea and so are these draconian measures that are supposed to "protect" us. Don't buy into the paranoia. We have survived worse.

As for the silly idea that Muslims want to start a sharia state. I say good luck to them, they'll need it.

The common misconception is that there are squillions of them here. Only in Urban areas.

Go 3 miles out of any town or city in the UK and you will see the countryside is awash with good old Anglo-Saxons, carrying on as they always have done.

90% of the Population is still your normal English/Scotsman/Welshman/Cornish dude.

(yes, Cornish.... We're as different as the rest of you! And were here first!)

Don't worry!! The Sky isn't about to fall!

Originally posted by stumason
90% of the Population is still your normal English/Scotsman/Welshman/Cornish dude.

92% i believe and you missed out the irish

and the idea that muslims (who make up 2% of the UK) are going to create an Islamic State is crazy thinking. BBC are just causing fear by saying that they are more dangerous to this Country than the IRA and Nazi Germany

its seems that we have forgotten we've had terrorism since the 1800s.

plus, its funny that an American member its declaring we are the enemy after they spent decades funding our enemy (the IRA)

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by stumason
90% of the Population is still your normal English/Scotsman/Welshman/Cornish dude.

92% i believe and you missed out the irish

and the idea that muslims (who make up 2% of the UK) are going to create an Islamic State is crazy thinking. BBC are just causing fear by saying that they are more dangerous to this Country than the IRA and Nazi Germany

its seems that we have forgotten we've had terrorism since the 1800s.

plus, its funny that an American member its declaring we are the enemy after they spent decades funding our enemy (the IRA)

I stand corrected, but about the Irish, I didn't want to lump them in as some take offense at being called British.

I am currently arguing with semperfortis on this thread about the IRA, so funny you should mention it.

This is still a stupid thread but at least it's now in the right forum!

Thanks majic

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Britain is not our enemy.

But what concerns me the most is that these terrorists caught today were British born citizens of Pakistani decent; the terrorists behind 7/7 were also British born. In other words, home grown. What in the UK is causing these people to turn against their country like this?

We do not harbour terrorists. We are not your enemy.

The Lefty agenda in this country encourages them and seeks to protect them.

The US will one day witness home grown attacks, but remember the US authorities have far more power to monitor its own citizens.

Originally posted by Peyres
The Lefty agenda in this country encourages them and seeks to protect them.

How does it seek to protect them? The present, Labour Government is a Centrist Administration. They are hardly on the "Left". Furthermore, I have never seen any Liberal [Left-Wing] Member of Parliament or Judge call for the protection of terrorists.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
What in the UK is causing these people to turn against their country like this?

Things like the invasion of Iraq. The support of Israel by Tony Blair and so on and so fourth. Many young Muslims are sick of how our Government can sponsor states that are killing other Muslims.

Originally posted by Peyres
The US will one day witness home grown attacks, but remember the US authorities have far more power to monitor its own citizens.

If I recall they already had a Muslim sniper going round shooting random people from the boot of his car? I've not searched for a source or anything but I think he left a playing card at the scene?

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by Peyres
The Lefty agenda in this country encourages them and seeks to protect them.

How does it seek to protect them? The present, Labour Government is a Centrist Administration. They are hardly on the "Left". Furthermore, I have never seen any Liberal [Left-Wing] Member of Parliament or Judge call for the protection of terrorists.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
What in the UK is causing these people to turn against their country like this?

Things like the invasion of Iraq. The support of Israel by Tony Blair and so on and so fourth. Many young Muslims are sick of how our Government can sponsor states that are killing other Muslims.

the left agenda, isn't just parliamentary, its groups like Human-Rights watch and Amnesty international, political activists, pressure groups, and yes the liberal democracts have strong ties to these groups.

the second argument just doesnt make sense. Islamicaly motivated Terrorism was a threat years before the invasion of iraq (even the first) people from all walks of life across the globe, from every religion, race and nation are being persected. Sudanese Christians are being raped, killed and burnt alive by an islamic run government, do Christians from the west for example, go over there and bomb their civilians? NO. Do hindus? No, Sikhs, no. I've asked my muslim freinds about the situation in places like Sudan,Ethiopia, pakistan, indonesia, they've either never heard of it, or just overlook it because of the islamic links to the perpetrators.

Christians are being ethnically cleansed in the Sudan, with Russian supplied weapons. Are millitant christians swarming over to Russia to bomb moscow????? Not that I know of.

What is it WITHIN islam, that is just so vindicative, and out for revenge, prone to knee jerk violence, convieniently forgetting the suffering of non-muslims? and valuing the life of their 'own' over others. This is the problem, there is no explanation, no justification. There is a political process they can take, violence is never the answer. This is why people like bush and blair label such actions as Islamic facism, they ignore the political process, ignore the fact they actually bomb their own people etc (for which they just labell them as martys in the struggle)



[edit on 13-8-2006 by Peyres]

Originally posted by stumason
DW, with respect, i think your over reacting. At the height of the Troubles, i lived in NI and I am alive today.

The actual risk of getting caught up in a terrorist attack are less than you getting hit by a bus.

Should we ban buses? Or start a WoB? Go carrying out airstrikes against Leyland Daf plants that make buses?

No, it's a silly idea and so are these draconian measures that are supposed to "protect" us. Don't buy into the paranoia. We have survived worse.

Stu several people have DIED because of this idea that we have lived through worse. This is not nothern ireland, we have "lived through worse" but this isnt the same situation. There is no "14th intel" to fight these style of terrorists, we dont have the capability to defend our own country anymore stu. Have you seen the cuts we've "had" to make in all areas?
That draconian idea that we british have seen it all and cant let a simple thing like 52 people being killed and hundreds more being injured get in the road of it.
This isnt a war, there are no borders, there is no clear enemy to fight.

Don't worry!! The Sky isn't about to fall!

Well the UK harrier force will if we have to fight someone who can fight BVR, or fight people who are actually good shots.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Well, no one wants family to die. Thats not the point. The point is overreaction and panic towards threats that may or maynot exist, and living your life under draconian security measures for this "safety".

You call a shoot to kill policy over reaction when 52 people die?

My problem isn't dealing with the use of violence. Im not adverse to violence, when used properly, as a last resort, and as a necessity. But the question is, just how big a threat are our enemies truly?

Can they kill a british citizen and do they feel they have a reason to?

I think the way I do because to me, my life would not be worth living if it was in a world of constant surveilance and an unrestrained police state, where governemnts are allowed to collect your private data and keep a database on you.

But the force IS restrained, btw all of those corporations (ie your internet provider and telephone company) collect data with you and can share some of it but are controlled by the data protection act.

Where you have to submit to intrusive security measures everytime you leave your house. That is where all this terrorist hype and security measures are going. basically, an orwellian nightmare, all in the name of safety.

Yes but it will never reach there, the UK will NEVER reach that stage.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
No, I do not want the government's "protection" from "evil terrorists" because the pirce is too high: my liberties, my privacy, and in general, human decency and dignity are what they want sacrificed for their "protection".

"Their protection" - are you sure, surely it's the protection of the population at large?

The problem is that you have a very personal agenda which most in the UK would disagree with. Your personal liberties and your personal privacy are of limited interest to the majority of people who want security and freedom on the community level. To talk of liberty and privacy of the individual at the expense of the will of our society as a whole is not democracy, that is anarchy.

You perceive any infringement of your personal liberty as an affront which springs from a Government which you believe to be corrupted to an almost unimaginable degree. Now whether you like it or not you have to accept that this is an extreme minority point of view and you do, therefore, in a democracy have to bow to the will of the majority. You may be convinced that you are right, (indeed, you may even be right), but you as an individual do not have the right to impose your views on society as a whole unless you are elelcted to serve them.

Alternatively, you could always take up arms against the state - but that would be kind of self defeating wouldn't it?

We're not going to close a thread because its 'dumb'. If you feel that the suggestion that perhaps britain can't be relied on, because it has a huge number of improperly assimilated muslim immigrants who might turn jihadi, is foolish, then explain why, it does nothing to merely say 'thats dumb'.