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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
While not specifically against the rules, it tends to create a drama fest and the Mods will normally close and trash any threads asking why a member was banned. Asking such questions in public is normally not a good idea.

I kinda guessed that. I read donwhite's original (un-edited) post, and he didn't seem to be asking why anyone was banned. He simply gave a 'shout-out' to someone who is.



If you were looking for further information on what happened...

I think I have a good idea of what happened, but thank you Duzey, and Semper (
),for the advice. If I had been curious, I wouldn't have known how to go about making an inquiry.




posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by donwhite
I think it is a good thing for white people to get some bad treatment once in a while...

For the life of me I cannot find logic in this reasoning.

BH, I think I kinda get what he meant.

For me, I know that it is easier to really, personally care about an issue that affects someone else if I have ever experienced it, or something like it. For example, you and I have spoken privately about my concerns for our nation's impoverished. I can empathize with poor whites because I know what it's like.

That's what I think donwhite meant, not that he actively wants white people to experience the bad side of racism. I don't think he's ever given the impression of being so callous. I think what he's saying is, if it happens to you, use it as a learning experience, to help empathise with others. I could be putting words in dw's mouth (and I invite him to correct me), but that's the message I took from his posts.



posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
BH, I think I kinda get what he meant.

For me, I know that it is easier to really, personally care about an issue that affects someone else if I have ever experienced it, or something like it.


I know. I kinda get it too, but hear this.


You said it. It's easier to 'get' someone's pain if I've experienced it before. That's true. But what really takes empathy, what requires the work, is to feel for someone even though I've never been through what they've been through. That's what takes MORE caring, more than sympathy, it takes empathy.

It's easier to say, "Yeah, I've been there. I know how you feel."
It's harder (and requires empathy) to say, "You know, I can't really imagine what it feels like to be in your position, but I hear you, I believe you, I feel for you, even though I have never experienced that.

It's easier for a once-poor person to sympathize with the poor. But for a rich girl to break down and cry because of the pain of a poor person's hunger requires real empathy. To me, that's the difference between empathy and sympathy. I can sympathize because I've been there. I can empathize even though I have never been there.

That's just my take on empathy. Again, it's usually a case of definitions when we disagree.
But yes, I see exactly what donwhite meant. It just struck me. Sorry if I was overbearing about it.
I love reading DW's stuff.

As regards Ceci being banned, yes, it's policy not to discuss it openly because of the drama that ensues. Most likely, the actual 'last straw' happened behind the scenes in U2U with a mod or Complaint or something. The board members rarely see or know about the specific reasons for banning. If she had done something against T&C in public, she probably would have been warned, but attacking the mods behind the scenes (and I'm not saying that's what happened, I have no way of knowing) is a sure and swift way to get banned.

It's sad. I think she had a lot to share, she just doesn't yet have the communication skills it takes to participate in this kind of environment, imo.

Moving on...



posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's easier to say, "Yeah, I've been there. I know how you feel."
It's harder (and requires empathy) to say, "You know, I can't really imagine what it feels like to be in your position, but I hear you, I believe you, I feel for you, even though I have never experienced that.

I was looking at it from the hypothetical perspective of someone who doesn't normally feel any empathy, or sympathy, at all. If, say, a poor white guy couldn't understand why black people are always complaining, he could take a look at his own life and see that he has quite a bit to complain about too. Or whatever. You see what I'm saying.

Me, I cry at commericials about the environment, killing puppies, whatever... I open my heart to people when they share their travails, because it makes them feel better. Then, I try to come up with a solution, because that will keep them feeling better. It doesn't require a lot of effort on my part, but for those to whom it doesn't come easily, donwhite's approach might help.

An analogy, if I may (you know I love 'em): If you can swim (feel em-/sympathy), you don't need the bridge (a similar personal experience).



[edit on 21-10-2006 by HarlemHottie]



posted on Oct, 21 2006 @ 11:43 PM
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HH,

Share a secret with you....

Even big ole' Grizzled Former Marine turned Cops cry at those things...

Semper



posted on Oct, 22 2006 @ 01:01 AM
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Awwww... you're such a softie.

btw, your avatar is going to give me nightmares. It's still cool, though.



posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 11:05 AM
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An interesting article for anyone who may still be hanging around on this thread.
www.frontpagemag.com...

'He talk like a white boy'. The black author was not 'black enough' for his black classmates liking. He got made fun of for speaking English (instead of eubonic slang) and for knowing the answers in school.

Interesting reading ...



posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 01:40 PM
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Today I was watching CSpan2, and again, found it the BEST tv channel around. Well, #2 to PBS. FYI, I have Fox OFF my remote. So, I'm not burdened, but lately, it looks as if Time Warner has altered CNN to look more like Fox? What won't people do for money? Ted Turner where are you when we need you? And hello, Jane!

Go to this website to get good info on Nonmember 7, vis a vis the African American voters around the US.

Author David Bositis “2006 African Americans Vote & Candidates” at www.jointcenter.org




[edit on 10/27/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 02:58 PM
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Thanks DW, I'll check it out...

BUT CSPAN????

You have got to get out more!!!! Come on over, we are having a BBQ tomorrow..

Semper



posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 09:53 PM
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posted by semperfortis

Thanks DW, I'll check it out...BUT CSPAN???? You have got to get out more!!!! Come on over, we are having a BBQ tomorrow..
Semper



I live in an apartment house where a fellow from Rock Hill visits 5-6 times a year. I do get out, just spent 10 days first at Dectur GA, then Dahlonega GA and then at Milledgeville GA before returning to Jax. I may be in touch. I prefer pulled pork loin. And some medium hot sauce. Mustard based. On white toast. With sliced raw onion and maybe a sliced dill pickle. And a big cloth napkin to wipe the sauce off my chin. Amstel Light or Rolling Rock to wash it down. Hmm! Getting hungry.
Don W



[edit on 10/27/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Oct, 27 2006 @ 10:51 PM
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You are always welcome at our house...

Give a hollar when your near Myrtle Beach and I'll fire the grill up

Semper



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 03:26 AM
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Hi all!

I haven't been around for a while, but I saw a story on the news tonight that I thought I would bring up for discussion.

A public school on the Lower East Side ('the L.E.S.') is currently embroiled in a local dispute. Apparently, the school, New Explorations into Science, Technology and Math School ('NEST') is a charter school, with restricted admissions. It's not clear if the requirements for admission are made public. The school's new principal, Olga Livanis, called the police to intervene during a heated PTA meeting.



After police stepped in, Buffington and seven others from the parents' executive board caucused in the school parking lot and resigned. They said the school's interim principal, Olga Livanis, is destroying the gifted and talented character of the school they fought hard to build five years ago. But others say that view point is paranoid and elitist and they support the principal.
...
"They want to keep it a public school with a private school mission, very selective and not accepting anyone who wasn't interviewed and processed," added Gomez.

The resentments do run deep, especially in the Bernard Baruch Houses right across the street. Nellie Castaneda failed to get her son in and senses discrimination.

"White people, rich people, upper class people,” said Castaneda, a resident of the Bernard Baruch Houses, of the type of people who attend NEST+M. “And that's not fair to us who live in the projects who can't get their kids in there."

Tempers Flare As Police Break Up PTA Meeting At Lower East Side School


And here's some history about the conflict.



Now the battle over NEST, which has about 730 students, has become a tale about the intersection of class, race, parents, politicians and philanthropists in the New York City public schools. It pits the mostly middle-class parents who have nurtured NEST, a kindergarten-through-12th-grade school for gifted and talented children, against Ms. Ross, a multimillionaire with homes in the Hamptons and on the Upper East Side whose supporters say she is creating a school to help the poor.

"They're trying to destroy our school," cried Arianna Gil, 12, a NEST seventh grader, at the Cipriani rally, as she handed out gift bags embossed in silver lettering with the NEST logo and filled with publicity materials. She warned of "complete chaos" if the Ross charter school moves in.

NEST parents and staff say that there is no room in their building for the Ross school, and that its arrival would force them to increase class size and cut some foreign-language classes and cherished programs like single-sex classes for math and science. But the city's Department of Education says that there is room for nearly twice as many students as currently attend, that the sharing arrangement would last only two years and that many parents have lost sight of the fact that NEST is a public school.

Keep out the dirty poor kids: Parents of the Gifted Resist a Call to Share a School Building


So, this is a public school that certain parents would like to keep private. They don't even want to share the building.

The saddest part, of course, is the effect this will have on the children, all of them. Miss Arianna Gil, quoted above, sounds brainwashed into thinking the Hispanic kids across the street will completely ruin the school, even if they're just sharing the building. The kids in the projects across the street will feel like 'white people don't want them in the school, a public school.'

Please discuss. I would like your opinions.



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 06:48 AM
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Fairly outrageous!!!

What "jumps" out at me the most is that they are not, NOT, really doing anything that would dramatically effect the NEST school.

My read is that all they are trying to do is share the building for two years.

I could see some consternation if they were disbanding the NEST school, but HECK all they want is a place to go to school. Apparently the NEST school would function as usual.

Are there any articles out there detailing the concerns of the NEST parents? Perhaps there is something the article is missing here.

It's a public school!!!! If they want their premadonna's attending an exclusive school, send them to private school.

Semper



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 12:05 PM
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There seems to be a lot of sensationalism here, beginning with the title of the article (Keep out the dirty poor kids) to the unfounded conclusion that the school is racist because of a high percentage of white students. Excluding the emotional factors, there seem to be two issues that are relevant:

Does the school have the room to accomodate the students from the Ross Global Academy?

Have the admissions policies at NEST been discriminatory?

I think this passage from the author is particularly incendiary, and without basis:


But the implication that the black and latino kids would dirty up their school and their methods of excluding them are racist, deeply, unforgivably racist.


Is the Ross School the same as the Ross Global Academy? And is the Lower East Side close to the Hamptons?

This is not a case of parents wanting their "primadonnas" to attend an exclusive school at the expense of poor students. It's a matter of using the available resources in the best manner.

There is a whole other discussion that could take place over whether TAG kids should be encouraged to reach their limits, or made to work at the pace of students that are less academically inclined.



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 12:33 PM
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JSOBECKY,

I see what you are saying, but it was my impression that they only wanted to share the building and not actually interfere with the NEST curriculum..

I could have been wrong in that..

As I was in spelling prima donna.. LOL

Semper



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 02:27 PM
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Sharing the building is fine. However, I'm skeptical that it will last for only 2 years. I saw no plans to build a permanent home for Ross Global Academy.

Also, realizing that I'm fairly ignorant of the geography, East Hampton (Ross School) is about 100 miles from Manhattan, I think. How will the kids get to school - a 2+hour bus trip every day? Are there no options closer to home?

Not enough details provided to discuss this, really.



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 02:53 PM
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posted by HarlemHottie

Hi all! . . I haven't been around, but I saw a story on the news tonight that I thought I would bring up for discussion. A public school on the Lower East Side is embroiled in a local dispute. The New Explorations into Science, Technology and Math School (NEST) . . is a charter school with restricted admissions. It's not clear if the requirements for admission are made public. The [NEST] school's new principal, Olga Livanis, called the police to intervene during a heated PTA meeting.



"They want to keep it [NEST] a public school with a private school mission, very selective and not accepting anyone who wasn't interviewed and processed," added Gomez. "And that's not fair to us who live in the projects who can't get their kids in there."

The battle over NEST, which has 730 students, has become a tale about the intersection of class, race, parents, politicians and philanthropists in the NYC public schools. It pits the mostly middle-class parents who have nurtured NEST, a K-12 school for gifted and talented children, against Ms. Ross, whose supporters say she is creating a school to help the poor.

NEST parents and staff say that there is no room in their building for the Ross school, and many parents have lost sight of the fact that NEST is a public school.


This is a public school [NEST] that certain parents would like to keep private. They don't even want to share the building. The saddest part, of course, is the effect this will have on the children, all of them. Please discuss. I would like your opinions. [Edited by Don W]




Confusing. Who’s on first? NEST is in the building. Mrs. Ross wants to bring in another school and to share space in the building for 2 years. The NEST parents do not want to share space for various reasons, mostly because they have so much of themselves invested.

My issue remains the same to me: is there a proper place for charter schools as well as vouchers? Do we need what seems to me to be incessant testing and ratings of schools? What passes for K12 education policy today seems to me to be no more than an excuse to de-fund the very schools that are in real need.

Educating children is not rocket science. We know how to do it and how to do it well. We lack the will to raise the funds necessary. That is all there is to this long and unsolvable debate. Not enough money and how to disguise that.

This rancorous public dispute is exactly the outcome James Dobson and others of like kind, who have backed vouchers for 2 decades, have been seeking. To pit one public school group against another public school group thereby discrediting both and then, according to his plan, the taxpayers in frustration will shower religious schools with money! We have got to take public school policy out of the hand of those dedicated to the destruction of public schools.

I am not familiar with who “invented” charter schools, but they are as disruptive of the K12 educational process in public schools as is the plan for school vouchers. Charter schools are outrageous, undemocratic and sow discord amongst people who need to be united. I see charter schools as a divide and conquer tactic, and school vouchers as a way to be rid of the wheel that squeaks the loudest. The charter school concept ought to be applied fully to every school. By granting tax supported privileges to select groups, it can be assumed there will be lots of conflicts.

Mrs. Ross may well be innocent of any foul intentions, but she is serving the anti-public school clique - movement - nevertheless. By empowering individual schools, the public’s support for overall quality education is divided into manageable sub-groups. Under the guise of democracy, the reality is a divided group cannot achieve quality for anyone. Finally, the most recent effort to break up the public schools by pitting one school against another, is planting a seed of discontent that will only grow and grow more divisive.

The current effort at reforming our schools, the No Child Left Behind Act, would more accurately be named the All Children Left Behind Act. By instituting repeated testing, and grading of schools, it has resulted in teachers teaching the tests. This cannot be defended but this law makes it mandatory. The PTAs, NEA and state teacher’s unions have proven over the last 75 years to have the best interest of our children as their guiding objective. Let’s listen for a change, to people who both know how and who have walked the walk when it comes to K12 education.

[edit on 10/28/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 08:53 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
There seems to be a lot of sensationalism here, beginning with the title of the article (Keep out the dirty poor kids)...

That's not actually an article, per se. It's a blog, so I would expect the author's personal prejudices to shine through. The first source I provided is an article from NY1, an affiliate of CNN.



...to the unfounded conclusion that the school is racist because of a high percentage of white students.

I agree with you that calling them racist would be sort of a knee-jerk reaction, but I do think that the blogger was right in identifying the problem as an 'intersection of race and class.' I'm personally of the opinion that it's a class issue but, the race thing does add an interesting component, for the purposes of this conversation, at least.



Does the school have the room to accomodate the students from the Ross Global Academy?


***
NEST parents and staff say that there is no room in their building for the Ross school, and that its arrival would force them to increase class size and cut some foreign-language classes and cherished programs like single-sex classes for math and science. But the city's Department of Education says that there is room for nearly twice as many students as currently attend, that the sharing arrangement would last only two years and that many parents have lost sight of the fact that NEST is a public school.




Have the admissions policies at NEST been discriminatory?



According to city statistics, 52.6 percent of NEST students in the 2004-5 school year were white, compared with 15.1 percent in public school citywide.
...
A look at the population of the Census Tract for the school's address and zip code 10002, Hispanics outnumber whites by 47 to 1. That's right , 47 to 1 and the school is 51 percent white.

Based on these statistics, which I haven't verified independently, it would appear that over half of the kids who attend NEST are white. That's unusual because, the neighborhood itself is overwhelmingly Hispanic.


At NEST, 18.9 percent of students qualified for free lunch, compared with 57.4 percent citywide.

Based on this, the kids who attend NEST are wealthier than their city-wide counterparts.

So, it's looking like well-off white kids are the only children deemed talented enough to go there.


There is a whole other discussion that could take place over whether TAG kids should be encouraged to reach their limits, or made to work at the pace of students that are less academically inclined.

That is a red herring. The question here isn't whether TAG programs are fair to the not-so-smart. The question here is, is NEST discriminating against qualified poor kids and/or children of color?



[***All of the external quotes used in this response were taken from the blog entry, which is the second link in my initial post on this subject. I just really didn't feel like doing all of that cutting and pasting.]



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 09:00 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
it was my impression that they only wanted to share the building and not actually interfere with the NEST curriculum..

I think that's right.

I posted this story because I'm worried about the neighborhood schools in Harlem, as the area gets gentrified. Will we be having this same dispute in a few years? I plan to home-school my (as yet unborn) children, but this is a disturbing trend for the affected children and communities. I was a 'TAG kid,' and it was a wonderful program, extremely diverse, so it's not like minority kids are dumb... I'm sorry, I'm rambling, but this is really sad for me...



posted on Oct, 28 2006 @ 09:13 PM
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HH,

I share your disappointment..

The fact that parents love their children is comforting, but ...

That they ignore the impact their actions have on children as a whole is troubling and disturbing in what should be an enlightened society.

Semper



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