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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:20 PM
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I have a life, too, ya know! Okay, so I don’t.


USA Today



Black and Asian women with bachelor's degrees earn slightly more than similarly educated white women, and white men with four-year degrees make more than anyone else.

A white woman with a bachelor's degree typically earned nearly $37,800 in 2003, compared with nearly $43,700 for a college-educated Asian woman and $41,100 for a college-educated black woman, according to data being released Monday by the Census Bureau. Hispanic women took home slightly less at $37,600 a year.


Bureau of Labor Statistics:

It would appear that the gender wage gap among whites is much larger than that of other races. In other words, black women earn 90% of what black men earn, but white women only earn 78% of what white men earn. Just an interesting little tidbit. Nothing can really be determined from it, though, because it's not taking education level into account.



It’s time for other people to find stuff.




posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I have a life, too, ya know! Okay, so I don’t.





I prefer the perspective that I'm multitasking...

(I'll help look later.... promise.
)



Black and Asian women with bachelor's degrees earn slightly more than similarly educated white women, and white men with four-year degrees make more than anyone else.




I didn't expect that. Any theories why?



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So, we're comparing the wage of the black McDonald's worker to the white lawyer, not the black lawyer to the white lawyer or the black engineer to the white engineer.


I don't think that's how the wage-gap is calculated. That would be kinda dumb, wouldn't it? I believe they compare people with similar qualifications for similar jobs.

So, they're comparing the black lawyer with the white lawyer, and still coming up short.



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
But the distinction was defined earlier in the thread. I posted information about "institutional racism" on page 14. It is complete with underlines and bold marks on important passages. The differences were set up in each of the articles featured in the post.

I hope that it clears up any issues there...

You could suggest to the mods to change the title of the thread if you feel it bothers you rather than focusing on the various topics discussed here.

Ceci,

I didn't mean to step on your toes.


I meant, when we're talking about personal experiences, we should specify which category applies. The thread itself is a nice place to share these kinds of experiences, but, for the sake of discussion, and then placement into a larger framework, we should know what we're talking about.

It's like, if we were doing a crime study for a certain neighborhood, we would distinguish between property crimes and personal ones, or whatever they're called in police jargon.



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 01:18 AM
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Just a suggestion here,

Handle the wage gap issue as you would any other investigation. You all watch CSI right?

Place the facts that you know in order, post them in that order, eliminate what ever is deemed impossible, or not provable and what ever is left, is the answer.

I would be wary of any Government or Liberal sites that present data on this as they generally have an agenda. (Trust me, I know, I have fallen for that on here as well! HH has pointed out to me before.)

I will present this however, all of the organizations I have ever worked for, a wage gap would be impossible.

Starting salaries are set in stone.
Promotions are mandated by length of service.
ETC.

I also checked with my friend that works over at the Public Utilities, and he states the same applies there as well.

It is apparently a part of their policy and procedures.

Semper



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
I will present this however, all of the organizations I have ever worked for, a wage gap would be impossible.

Starting salaries are set in stone.
Promotions are mandated by length of service.
ETC.

I also checked with my friend that works over at the Public Utilities, and he states the same applies there as well.

It is apparently a part of their policy and procedures.

Semper

This sounds like a typical policy of a gov't run organization as opposed to private industry. The wage gaps are much wider in private industry, as they should be.



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Well, I agree that it's not enough in the overall scheme of things, but seeing as how I'm not your employer or landlord, is my contribution enough or is there something more you think I should be doing?

What a good question!

Inform yourself. Make yourself knowledgeable, and then spread that knowledge.

For example, if you're talking to a white person you know who just said/did/expressed belief in something you found to be racially insensitive, like, for example, black girls are sluts, you could:

a) convey the multiculturalist party line, It's wrong to judge people based on the color of their skin.

or,

b) educate them by explaining where the stereotype came from, and informing them that, Black women were called promiscuous so that slave masters could feel free to rape them.

Option A gets the point across, that you disagree with their assessment, but it doesn't go into why you disagree. Throughout our conversation, you've agreed with me on the general stuff, but disagree on the specifics. Once I explain my position, it makes sense to you, and you may even see my point.

For example:


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
If all the wage-gaps disappeared, and everyone was paid equally, a lot of 'black issues' would be non-existant, like gang-violence. Those kids would much rather be working on a job with decent wages and healthcare... if blacks were paid equally, we wouldn't be so dependent on public education. That would fix the problem of the 'education-gap.'

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I hear you. But don't the problems with black crime and lack of opportunity start much earlier than that? ... I mean the 12 year old who joins the gang - is he doing it because he knows he'll not get paid as much as a white man?


Yes, they know. It's quite obvious, as the evidence is all around us. Kids grow up here knowing several key pieces of information: that their parents have crappy jobs; that their bosses treat them like crap because they're unskilled; that the government doesn't care about any of us, young or old; and, that we're not really wanted here.

I'm not exaggerating. You can ask a 7 year old. They know.

The twelve year-old who joins a gang is doing so because he needs money, the same reason anyone engages in illegal activity (aside from the bored and rich). Why would a 12 year-old need money, you ask? Let me put it like this: On Lou Dobbs last night, he featured a young black woman raising three kids on a minimum-wage salary, which came to somewhere around $10,000. Now, I'm sure we can all agree that that's ridiculous already, but, as an added bonus, her eldest was a teenage boy. Like every other American child, black children want nice stuff too. That, plus knowing that, even if you work your ass off, like your mom, you'll never be able to afford that stuff legally... There goes your 12 year old gangbanger. Not the best reasoning, but they're children, after all.



I was under the impression that inner-city kids aren't getting what they need in schools OR in their homes and the life of crime starts at a young age.

I had to address this separately because I was, really, just so disturbed. Is the young Italian boy who runs numbers for the mob not getting what he needs in his home? I was an "inner-city kid," and I came out okay.

My personal opinion is that the problem is in the schools. That was the only variable for me. I was smart enough to buy my own ticket out, so to speak, but everyone isn't smart. You shouldn't have to be a superstar to have a chance at life. Of course, the problem with the schools indirectly reflects on the parents, but I would posit that there are lots of genuinely busy parents across this country who don't spend enough time involved in their kids' educations. There are also lots of school administrators just in it for the paycheck. The difference is the teachers.

The teachers here hate the kids. I cannot stress that enough. They hate them. I live across the street from a middle school, so I see lots of kids in line, holding hands, you know, being marshalled down the street by their teacher and her aides. The language I hear... whew! It's no wonder the kids don't respect them. Once, my mother was so disgusted that she actually stopped the teacher, pulled her to the side, and got her name. She was reported to the school. I believe she's still there.

You cannot teach children when you hate them. Plain and simple.

I've been told, by middle-aged Harlem residents who have lived here their whole lives, that, for a long period, teachers 'from the neighborhood' (ie, invested in the community) were shipped out to faraway places (white neighborhoods), while white teachers were sent here.

I don't know why the Department of Education would switch things around like that. It should be obvious that 'neighborhood teachers' are better for everyone, black and white. It's helpful to have a teacher who knows the community, and understands the factors that go into creating the children who appear in her classroom. One reason could be that inner-city teachers are paid more, 'battle pay,' I guess. There's a conspiracy.

Just some background to the problem. I don't know for sure if that 'switch-a-roo' is still going on, but, looking at the teachers, it certainly looks like it, but, to be fair, this is just hear-say.



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
I will present this however, all of the organizations I have ever worked for, a wage gap would be impossible... It is apparently a part of their policy and procedures.

You're right, but like jso said, that's because they're public, and the salaries are paid out of all our money.


Originally posted by jsobecky
The wage gaps are much wider in private industry, as they should be.

Why "should" there be wage gaps at all?

[ edit to add:]

Originally posted by semperfortis
Handle the wage gap issue as you would any other investigation. You all watch CSI right?

Place the facts that you know in order, post them in that order, eliminate what ever is deemed impossible, or not provable and what ever is left, is the answer.

Please explain further. I'm interested...


[edit on 7-10-2006 by HarlemHottie]



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 02:46 AM
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Originally posted by loam
Any theories why?

The article says, basically, that they don't know.


The bureau did not say why the differences exist. Economists and sociologists suggest possible factors: the tendency of minority women, especially blacks, to more often hold more than one job or work more than 40 hours a week, and the tendency of black professional women who take time off to have a child to return to the work force sooner than others.

Employers in some fields may give extra financial incentives to young black women, who graduate from college at higher rates than young black men, said Roderick Harrison, a researcher at the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, a think tank that studies minority issues.

"Given the relative scarcity, if you are a woman in the sciences — if you are a black woman — you would be a rare commodity," Harrison said.

Because study in the area is limited, it is hard to pinpoint specific reasons, said Barbara Gault, research director at the Washington-based Institute for Women's Policy Research.

"It could be the fields that educated black women are choosing," she said. "It also could be related to the important role that black women play in the total family income in African-American families.



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 04:29 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by loam
Any theories why?

The article says, basically, that they don't know.


"Given the relative scarcity, if you are a woman in the sciences — if you are a black woman — you would be a rare commodity," Harrison said.



This sentence strikes me as odd. Doesn't it to you?

Sounds very trophy like...


I have a different thought. Could it be that Black women in an environment of adversity apply themselves more thoroughly to their education, and as a consequence actually excel on the basis of merit?

This would be a rather ironic result, don't you think? White women could actually be the victims of their own 'unconscious' sense of privilege that some of you have mentioned, because they lack a similar stimulus Black women face in terms of feeling the need that they have to try so hard.

Any thoughts on that?


[edit on 7-10-2006 by loam]



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 04:38 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
The wage gaps are much wider in private industry, as they should be.

Why "should" there be wage gaps at all?


I'm assuming he meant wage gap on the basis of merit. (Even I can't believe jsobecky meant otherwise.)



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 04:50 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So, we're comparing the wage of the black McDonald's worker to the white lawyer, not the black lawyer to the white lawyer or the black engineer to the white engineer.


I don't think that's how the wage-gap is calculated. That would be kinda dumb, wouldn't it? I believe they compare people with similar qualifications for similar jobs.

So, they're comparing the black lawyer with the white lawyer, and still coming up short.


Can we look at a particular study and determine that.

Link anyone?



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 07:46 AM
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HH

It is very basic and VERY effective.

First: Someone, you for example, poses a question.
Then: Others that are interested post what they consider to be pertinent information/solutions
Then: You compile the information received and pose what you consider to be a valid solution leaving open other's interpretation of the data.
Finally: Others post their interpretations of the data and theoretically reach a logical conclusion.

You have to make sure that everyone that presents data is represented when the information is compiled. Even if their data is irrelevant it needs to be posted and then dismissed.

The member posing the original question needs to logically present the information in what ever form they desire, yet it must be orderly.

Example:

Member A Asks a question.
Members B, C, and D presents their thoughts, ideas and evidence as it relates to the question.
Member A then takes that information, condenses it and re-presents it in relative order back on the board along with Member A's comments about the received information.

This should give a valid hypothesis to further expand on and insert order in the posts allowing more indepth examination of any subject.

Semper



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I don't think that's how the wage-gap is calculated. That would be kinda dumb, wouldn't it?


Yes, it would be dumb. Or else it would show what some people want it to show. I'm not saying you, I'm saying statistics can be and are used to show whatever people want them to show.

I can't find a link that states clearly how that number (the "median annual earnings") is determined. So, until someone can, I'm not sure how it's figured. Math is my thing, so I'd like to see how they figure it to determine if it's meaningful.

Some other interesting pieces of information from that site:

The Wage Gap


The wage gap is expressed as a percentage (e.g., in 2004, women earned 77% as much as men) and is calculated by dividing the median annual earnings for women by the median annual earnings for men.


For the same job, same experience and education, same hours??? It doesn't say. I know it would be meaningless (dumb) otherwise. So why don't they say how it's figured? I'm not willing to assume.

Does anyone have any comment on the data about the information that shows that if blacks get a college education, they are equally hired into the workplace? I thought that was a pretty significant finding... It's being ignored...

politics.abovetopsecret.com...


Originally posted by semperfortis
I will present this however, all of the organizations I have ever worked for, a wage gap would be impossible... It is apparently a part of their policy and procedures.


In my experience, (as I said yesterday) large engineering corporations hire at equal pay. They can't get away with anything less. They hire sometimes 20 NCGs (New College Graduates) at one time, who work together. They cannot get away with paying some more than others.

It's only after some time that the brighter, more motivated, more dedicated employees stand out and receive benefit for their work, which, as jsobecky pointed out, is only right. There should be a wage gap, but it should be based on merit alone, not gender or race.



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by loam

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
The wage gaps are much wider in private industry, as they should be.

Why "should" there be wage gaps at all?


I'm assuming he meant wage gap on the basis of merit. (Even I can't believe jsobecky meant otherwise.)

Hey! I resemble that remark!


Of course that's what I meant.



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 10:28 AM
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HH - As regards the Median Annual Earnings:

Median



The median of a set of data is the data point in the middle of the
list (arranged in order) if the list has an odd number of entries ...

For example, here are some weights of persons:

98, 104, 110, 118, 125, 140, 175

The median is 118 since it is the middle point.


So, the Median Annual Earnings of black people would be the center number of all the salaries of black people, lined up. It simply expresses the one in the middle, which is different from the 'mean average', which is what most people think of as the 'average' (all added together and divided by the number of data points).

So, considering that 15% of black people graduate from college and 30% of white people do, it makes perfect sense that the median of black salaries would be lower, because not as many blacks graduate from college. They are using the non-college-graduate numbers mixed in with the college graduate numbers of both races.

It is NOT a direct comparison of black engineer to white engineer. But black McDonald's workers and black engineers compared with white McDonald's workers and white engineers.

Also, we don't know what they are using for data points. Are they including Heads of State? Professional athletes? Actors? Are they even using McDonald's workers or is it just American Corporations? That's why I say this data cannot be trusted to mean that white men are making more than black men for the same job. It's meaningful data, for sure, but I'm not convinced it means what you think it does.

Correct me if I'm wrong.



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 04:23 PM
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BH,

The only way to actually, factually determine if the statement, White Workers make more than Black Workers, is to compare:

The exact Job, with employees with the exact Tenure, and perfectly similar Evaluations.

I can find no where that this type of study has been or is being done.

Anything else, and you not only have the potential for "Skewed" numbers, but the probability as the statistics are going to be derived for a purpose and depending on the purpose of the "Poll Taker" will decide the direction the statistics are varied.

With this as a foundation, I think it is perfectly acceptable to state the "Hypothesis" is.

The FSLA (Fair Labor Standards Act) has made it extremely difficult to practice discrimination in the workplace as far as pay scales go. I am NOT saying it doesn't exist, but with reporting abuse being mandated as anonymous, I would postulate it is no where near as prevalent as was once thought. That will be the prime reason no study of the sort I mentioned previously can be completed. Not with any credibility.

Semper



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 05:50 PM
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Yes, I know, Semper. The only way to get the answer is to compare apples to apples, but since we do have data on college graduation for blacks and whites, I think that's a good place to look to begin to determine the discrepancy in the job market.

Because from everything I've seen, there isn't anything to indicate that institutional racism (or bigotry or whatever you want to call it) is very pervasive at all in the workforce. It's just kind of a thing that people take for granted as true. And because some author (black or white) writes a "scholarly article" saying that whites make more than blacks or that whites have a "feeling of ownership" or "entitlement" about the country that's somehow missing in black people, doesn't mean I'm going to just automatically believe him. Where's the data? Let me see how they figured this...

I would like to know why 7 year old black children think they don't have a chance in this white man's worlld. I'd like to know where they're getting this message. I'd like for it to stop. It's a lie! They need to be told that they can do anything they want. They need to be encouraged, nurtured and raised with a pride in this country just like everyone else.

HH - How is it that you got a positive message about what you could reach for in life? Why aren't all black kids getting that message?



posted on Oct, 7 2006 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Because from everything I've seen, there isn't anything to indicate that institutional racism (or bigotry or whatever you want to call it) is very pervasive at all in the workforce. It's just kind of a thing that people take for granted as true.

Large corporation are especially sensitive about their corporate image, and will bend over backwards to avoid any appearance of intolerance. This is one of the reasons that Jesse Jackson's shakedown scam worked so lucratively with Budweiser, Toyota, and others.



posted on Oct, 8 2006 @ 05:49 AM
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Information to build on :


Discrimination charges

EEOC enforces Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex (gender), or national origin. EEOC also enforces the Age Discrimination Act, which protects workers age 40 and older from discrimination; the Equal Pay Act of 1963; the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, which prohibits discrimination against people with disabilities in the federal sector; and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA), which prohibits such discrimination in the private sector and state and local governments.

However, discrimination still exists in today’s workplace. The data show that 81,293 private sector employment discrimination charges were filed between October 2002 and September 2003. Leading the charges were race-based discrimination claims. The 81,293 private sector charges break down as follows:
Type of Charge .......Number of Charges Filed .........Percent of Total Charges
Race................................28,526 ................................. 35.1
Sex/Gender.....................24,362....................................30.0
Retaliation........................22,690....................................27.9
Age..................................19,124....................................23.5
Disability...........................15,377...................................18.9
National origin......................8,450...................................10.4
Religion...............................2,532.....................................3.1
Equal pay.............................1,167.....................................1.4

In addition to the charges listed above, there were 13,566 sexual harassment charges filed and 4,649 pregnancy discrimination charges filed.
EEOC



Employees of Lebanese descent prevail in California harassment lawsuit


SAN FRANCISCO - A jury awarded $61 million to two FedEx Ground drivers of Lebanese descent who claimed a manager harassed them with racial slurs for two years.

Edgar Rizkallah, 43, and Kamil Issa, 36, both of Pleasanton, said in the discrimination lawsuit they were called “terrorists,” “camel jockeys” and other epithets in 1999 and 2000 by Stacy Shoun, terminal manager for the Oakland FedEx Ground facility where the two men were contract drivers.

An Alameda County Superior Court jury on Friday awarded the men $50 million in punitive damages, on top of $11 million in compensatory damages the jury awarded them on May 24, a lawyer for the plaintiffs and a FedEx Ground spokesman said Saturday.
FEDEX



6/22/2005 – INDIANAPOLIS – The owner of senior communities in 14 states will pay $650,000 to settle a race discrimination suit filed by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), the agency announced today. The EEOC charged that a Fort Wayne senior community refused to hire African Americans and members of other racial groups for many years. The agency also said the facility failed to keep employment records, specifically application papers, as required by law.

According to the EEOC's lawsuit, Civil Action No. 1:05-CV-004, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana, Fort Wayne Division, Georgetowne Place, owned and operated by Seattle-based Merrill Gardens LLC, perpetrated a pattern and practice of shunning minorities because of their race and/or color. During the EEOC's investigation, Carol Felger, the former general manager for Georgetowne Place, stated that residents at the facility preferred white employees, and did not want minorities to come into their rooms.
Nursing Home


Here is an interesting site that lists lawsuits per state...

Lawsuits by State

There continues to be a lot of this out there even with the crack down and penalties being assessed. I'm supposing much of it slips through the cracks of an already overworked court system.

Semper



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