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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:11 AM
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I'm sorry, what was "very evident?"

That others have felt racism regardless of the race of the person effected. That racism goes WAY beyond a black white thing.


So, let me ask you, what was it like in the Marines for you? 'Racially,' I mean. You've stated previously in this thread that you're "tan," implying, I can only assume, some 'colored' heritage.

Yes I do.
In the Marines there is some racism, yet it is hidden and repressed and the Corps will NOT stand for it, so everyone knows it is a quick way to a dishonorable discharge.


Well, at the very least, the reports of rape were greatly exaggerated.

Agreed


Were you in uniform?

In and Out, depending on the particular incident. Look, it was what I did and still do. (Though more management and computer related now, I still have to get in the trenches at times) I was just pointing out the incongruity of lamenting about personal tragedy and it's unproductive effect on debates. Again, attempting to deal with the finite issue of the thread title.


I'm confused. Are you white or "tan"?

Does it matter? I have never personally seen a completely white person. (though some geeks I know get pretty close)
My heritage keeps me a nice shade of bronze most of the time. Good for the beach.


I have to stop you here. Based on the rest of your post, what you mean to say is, "Racist violence is colorblind..." I don't expect you'll get a lot of argument, but you have to admit, there's more than one way to be racist.


Of course there is....
That was my contention all along!!!!
Color does not make you a racist, nor does it exclude you from being one.

And no, I meant that Racist behavior is color blind. Behavior is not predisposed to any one race of people no more than the violence that has been known to follow.

Semper




posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by loam
What's the point?


The point is, there are forms of racism that, like institutional, that affect only people of color.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:24 AM
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HH,

You don't think that Institutional racism effects persons of non color? (Whatever that is)

How about the High School graduate that scores 100% on the entrance examination and gets knocked off the list because the institution has to fill their quota of minority applicants even though they have scored lower. (examples too numerous to list)

Or the job seeker that does not get hired because some one "of color" is hired to fill the quota? (has happened to me)

Institutional racism is exactly like any other kind of racism in it's effects on a society. HARMFUL.

The sociological long term effects of these actions combined with the programs set into effect to combat the very thing they serve to propagate, are as yet unknown. Society is however, beginning to feel those effects.


End result being, if we as a society do not start repairing the damage, instead of enabling those that revel in the victim or oppressor attitude, we are all going to suffer.

Semper



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
In and Out, depending on the particular incident.

Then, how can you be sure that the violence you experienced wasn't the result of a general hatred for cops of all colors? Not racism.


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I'm confused. Are you white or "tan"?

Originally posted by semperfortis
Does it matter?

Yes, I think it does. You recounted personal experiences that you state were the result of racism. Of course your color mattters.



And no, I meant that Racist behavior is color blind. Behavior is not predisposed to any one race of people no more than the violence that has been known to follow.

So you're talking about 'individual racism.'

I'm nit-picking because it's occurred to me that we (the whole thread) don't know what we're talking about. For example, to me, individual racism is, at best, an irritant, at worst, a crime. What I'm saying is, it can be handled. OTOH, institutional racism is an entirely different problem and, in my mind, much worse. We've made no such disctinction here, and that's making the conversation more difficult.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
How about the High School graduate that scores 100% on the entrance examination and gets knocked off the list because the institution has to fill their quota of minority applicants even though they have scored lower. (examples too numerous to list)

As compared to hundreds of years of an 'only white men, 100% quota'?

I'm sorry, I respect you and enjoy speaking with you, but I think that this is a ridiculous argument.



Or the job seeker that does not get hired because some one "of color" is hired to fill the quota? (has happened to me)

I've always wanted to ask someone: How do you know this? Did they tell you?

No one ever tells me why I didn't get the job... no fair.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:47 AM
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Then, how can you be sure that the violence you experienced wasn't the result of a general hatred for cops of all colors? Not racism.


Because I have experienced both kinds for 20+ years. It's not like you have to be hit with a brick (pun intended) to know the difference.


So you're talking about 'individual racism.'

I'm nit-picking because it's occurred to me that we (the whole thread) don't know what we're talking about. For example, to me, individual racism is, at best, an irritant, at worst, a crime. What I'm saying is, it can be handled. OTOH, institutional racism is an entirely different problem and, in my mind, much worse. We've made no such disctinction here, and that's making the conversation more difficult.


Yes, if it is your intention to differentiate, then we can be on the same page. I was referring to racism as a phenomenon and thus as one general topic.

I do agree with your premise. Institutional ANYTHING will have more insidious and far reaching effects than anything termed individual. This is true in any sociological topic.

HH

It is bedtime alas, I do however anticipate our continuing this very stimulating debate tomorrow. Thank you....

Semper...



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:51 AM
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Sorry, wanted to answer your last quote...


as compared to hundreds of years of an 'only white men, 100% quota'?

I'm sorry, I respect you and enjoy speaking with you, but I think that this is a ridiculous argument.


Not saying it is equal.... Not at all, only that it is experienced. Thereby a factor to consider as we are discussing socio-economic factors that have been effected by race as well as individual effects.

I really enjoy your style of debate as well....

Night

Semper



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I'm nit-picking because it's occurred to me that we (the whole thread) don't know what we're talking about. For example, to me, individual racism is, at best, an irritant, at worst, a crime. What I'm saying is, it can be handled. OTOH, institutional racism is an entirely different problem and, in my mind, much worse. We've made no such disctinction here, and that's making the conversation more difficult.


I think this is a sound point.

The distinction has not been clear.

Perhaps we can do much better keeping this point in mind. Of course, the thread title doesn't really do that.

[edit on 6-10-2006 by loam]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally quoted by loam


I think this is a sound point.

The distinction has not been clear.

Perhaps we can do much better keeping this point in mind. Of course, the thread title doesn't really do that.


But the distinction was defined earlier in the thread. I posted information about "institutional racism" on page 14. It is complete with underlines and bold marks on important passages. The differences were set up in each of the articles featured in the post.

I hope that it clears up any issues there.

The thread title, I repeat again, was an open-ended question that provided wide latitude to discuss how to make race-relations better and to come towards a solution for ending racism. I believe that since intitutional racism was mentioned, the latitude presented can fit this terminology under its umbrella and still stay on topic.

You could suggest to the mods to change the title of the thread if you feel it bothers you rather than focusing on the various topics discussed here.



[edit on 6-10-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
But the distinction was defined earlier in the thread. I posted information about "institutional racism" on page 14.




Are you kidding? I'm expected to get to page 14 to understand the title of the thread?


Originally posted by ceci2006
The thread title, I repeat again, was an open-ended question that provided wide latitude to discuss how to make race-relations better and to come towards a solution for ending racism.


But with the rampant generlizations posted in this thread, and without reference to the "distinction" just mentioned, it's difficult to understand what is being said.

Some statements might change their meaning depending upon which side of the distinction is being discussed.

I have to admit, there is a part of me that is not even certain such a distinction is very helpful in the first place. I see institutional racism as a consequence of the individual variety. It seems to me that if you address the former; it resolves the latter.


Originally posted by ceci2006
I believe that since intitutional racism was mentioned, the latitude presented can fit this terminology under its umbrella and still stay on topic.


This isn't about whether it's on topic. It's about clarity. HH makes a point, that in part, I fully agree with. What are we talking about?

I don't care how many substantive issues we discuss under this thread, but let's make certain we know at any given time what that issue is!


Originally posted by ceci2006
You could suggest to the mods to change the title of the thread if you feel it bothers you rather than focusing on the various topics discussed here.


Why was this insult necessary? Is that what I have expressed? Is there a reason for your continued rudeness?

I'm getting real sick of that.



[edit on 6-10-2006 by loam]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 03:45 AM
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. I am very tired of people complaining about the subject title and the issues on this thread.

So, I offered a solution. People can feel free to take it or not.

And no, I'm not kidding.


To keep it topical, you could focus on the issues at hand and not focus on the threadstarter. That would help quite a lot. That requires a little work on your part.

After all, you could have started a thread with the meticulous specifications that cater to your needs. Otherwise, instead of wasting space complaining about it, work on making the issues more the focus rather than personalities. It is also helpful to note that others have worked very hard on this thread. It is an insult to them to come in at the end complaining at every turn. However, you aren't the first.

And there are a lot things that I'm sick of, but for the sake of kindness I keep it to myself--which is more than I can say for you and others on this board.






[edit on 6-10-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 05:31 AM
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And there are a lot things that I'm sick of, but for the sake of kindness I keep it to myself--which is more than I can say for you and others on this board.


Use that same kindness to observe that the issue IS being debated with clarity, intelligence and even enjoyment, by everyone present; except you.

No barbs, no attacks, only from you and around you do these things spring.

The topic is obviously interesting, we obviously have opinions, (All of us), we are discussing it with all the grace of ATS members.

Tell you something?


Semper

[edit on 10/6/2006 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/6/2006 by semperfortis]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 08:02 AM
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Thank you for answering my questions.



Originally posted by ceci2006
So, I don't know what you are trying to prove.


I wasn't trying to prove anything. I was asking about you instead of assuming. I was just trying to get a feel for what the people you know are/were like. It sounds like you have known a variety of white people. Do they all feel this "ownership" and "entitlement" that your article claims? This is a question. This is ONLY a question.


There really isn't a difference between the people you know and the people on this board. I bet you never called them the things you called us. I bet you never asked them about their biological predisposions. I bet you never said all the stuff you said to them that you've said to us because if you did, I bet they'd react just like we did.




How do you like me, a white person, telling you how black people feel?


You and others do it all the time without even considering how anyone feels.


But how does it feel? Terrible, right? I'm just saying that if you don't want people to tell you how you feel, if you want people to stop focusing on your behavior, maybe you should consider stopping that as well. I bet if you did, th evast majority of it would go away.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Validation means to me four things:

1)To discuss a topic without any sort of ridicule or dismissing of the issue as "nonsense".

2)To be able to integrate all sorts of histories, experiences and knowledge into the topic and discuss them without accusing the messenger.

3)To have all people accept those histories, experiences and knowledge as they are. None is "less intellectual" than the other.

4)To add on to the knowledge produced and continue the conversation smoothly, trying to make connections and awarenesses of what has been contributed without fear or intimidation.


These sound really great for the most part, and I'd love for all of us to follow some sort of guidelines. I think that would be really helpful in keeping the discussion moving along. Some comments...

1) "Any sort of ridicule" would have to go for all of us. Ceci, if you want people to stop ridiculing you, you must also agree to stop. It's only fair.

2) You mention experience and knowledge. That means everyone's experience and knowledge as well, correct? Not just yours or the black experience. I know you do, I'm just reiterating.

3) See #2.

4) I don't think we can be sure people won't be intimidated, but we can try.

And I'd like to add #5) As regards our previous discussions, leave the past in the past. In other words, I don't bring up "Miss Scarlett" any more and Ceci, you don't bring up the ways in which you feel you've been attacked in the past, like people judging your behavior or insulting your parents.

What's most important here is that we all treat each other with respect. All of us. I'm willing to commit to this if everyone else in the current discussion is. In fact, I'm willing to do it even if everyone else doesn't. But be aware, if someone commits to this and I see them breaking it, I will draw their attention to it.


What do we say?

We might really get somewhere with this discussion.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I wasn't really expecting a response. You seem interested in feminism, so I thought I could help elucidate some things about 'our side' of the issue.


Oh! Ok. Now I get it. You were suggesting the book as a way to answer my question about black women in feminists groups!
Okay. Thanks. I understand now.



because we feel excluded.


I'm sorry you feel excluded. I think you probably have a whole lot of insight to add to the movement! Another perspective that I'm sure feminists would benefit from hearing, although they may not be too eager to hear.




Thank you for acknowledging that, but, your approach only works if you're my employer, or landlord, or whatever. In my mind, that is not enough.


Well, I agree that it's not enough in the overall scheme of things, but seeing as how I'm not your employer or landlord, is my contribution enough or is there something more you think I should be doing?



BH, sweetie, calm down.



I'm calm.
Just trying to be crystal clear with my thoughts and feelings.




I get the feeling that you see reading this book as some kind of punitive measure undertaken to make you feel bad for being a white woman.


No. I did feel you were 'strongly suggesting' it and I didn't know why, but now I do.



The point was that black women and white women have some issues to work out amongst themselves before they can take on the "male hegemony". It must be true because, here we are, several pages later, still working them out.

(" "added)


Boy, ain't that the truth!
But fortunately, some have the fortitude to keep at it. It's not easy, I'm sure we all agree... But good on us for keeping at it.



Have I answered that question yet?


Yes. I just didn't realize you were answering it.




But, still, do you admit that white women are 'doing better' than everyone else, except white men?


Absolutely. No argument.



If all the wage-gaps disappeared, and everyone was paid equally, a lot of 'black issues' would be non-existant, like gang-violence. Those kids would much rather be working on a job with decent wages and healthcare, but those jobs don't exist for them, because of this wage-gap. Another example: if blacks were paid equally, we wouldn't be so dependent on public education. That would fix the problem of the 'education-gap.' See what I mean?


I hear you. But don't the problems with black crime and lack of opportunity start much earlier than that? I was under the impression that inner-city kids aren't getting what they need in schools OR in their homes and the life of crime starts at a young age. I mean the 12 year old who joins the gang - is he doing it because he knows he'll not get paid as much as a white man?



Good, I would like you to share that with other feminists you know.


I will. And thanks.
I love talking with you!



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
I mean, who else would be asked, "What do you want?" as if the inquirers were held hostage?


That is a TOTAL misinterpretation of the question! That question was asked with sincerity and curiosity. There was no "as if the inquirers were held hostage". That thought never entered my mind! The question was "What do you want"? as if there's something we may not aware of that might be able to help the cause of race relations. Nothing about being held hostage. I promise you misunderstood the question.

Now that it's been explained, could you let it go?

It's these blatant misunderstandings that throw chinks in the works and tie the discussion up for pages, Ceci.

If we could assume the best of intentions... I know that may be hard for a while, but could we try it? At least check it out before assuming the worst. I've explained what I meant. Don't you believe me?

At least don't assume the absolute worst! And then, after it's explained, accept the explanation (as you have suggested in your 4 points) instead of continuing to think that we had the worst possible intention in asking the question. This is one of the important things we need to do to continue with a decent discussion in my opinion.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
The point was that black women and white women have some issues to work out amongst themselves before they can take on the "male hegemony". It must be true because, here we are, several pages later, still working them out.

(" "added)





Thanks for the quotes....
(...I think...)




Originally posted by ceci2006
After all, you could have started a thread with the meticulous specifications that cater to your needs. Otherwise, instead of wasting space complaining about it, work on making the issues more the focus rather than personalities. It is also helpful to note that others have worked very hard on this thread. It is an insult to them to come in at the end complaining at every turn. However, you aren't the first.

And there are a lot things that I'm sick of, but for the sake of kindness I keep it to myself--which is more than I can say for you and others on this board.



ceci

:shk:

I'm done with giving you the benefit of the doubt. You want to be treated nicely...you want to be heard...then practice that behavior yourself!

[edit on 6-10-2006 by loam]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by loam
This isn't about whether it's on topic. It's about clarity. HH makes a point, that in part, I fully agree with. What are we talking about?

I don't care how many substantive issues we discuss under this thread, but let's make certain we know at any given time what that issue is!


Well, I had no idea this thread was supposed to be about institutionalized racism and not personal racism.
I thought it was about it all. And let me say that that probably explains a LOT of the tension herein.

Let me say right here that I totally agree that institutionalized racism exists and is much bigger than most people know.

And at the risk of speaking for the majority of my race...
... I think when most of us hear about racism, we probably get a little bit defensive because we think, "Hey, I'm not racist." But when we look at the larger picture, it's clear that institutionalized racism IS alive and well.

Now, I'll go back to speaking for myself and say that when I think about institutionalized racism, I wonder what I can do about it... What can I do, besides vote to change racism on the larger scale? I feel totally helpless! Powerless. I feel as powerless to change anything about institutionalized racism as I feel to change the direction our country is going. All I can do is vote.

And at the risk of sounding like a hostage... What can I do about it? I'm not asking that in a "throw up my hands in defeat" way, or a "I don't give a crap" way, I'm asking that in a "Do you have any ideas what more I, an individual, can do to change institutionalized racism"?

Thank you for accepting my question in the spirit in which it was meant.



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What can I do about it?


I still maintain it's about governing one's own behavior and calling it out when you see it.

I have found in my experience that when someone says something racist, it doesn't take very much from me for them to never make racist comments in my presence again.

Sure, it may do nothing to cure someone's racist beliefs, but sometimes it does. I've even had a few people tell me so over time.

Now, on the issue of institutionalized racism, I think we need to be clear about what that really is. In my view, not all things that impact a particular race are borne out of racism. I think it's more complicated than that.

Can someone throw out a specific example for us to discuss and analyze?


[edit on 6-10-2006 by loam]



posted on Oct, 6 2006 @ 10:24 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by semperfortis
How about the High School graduate that scores 100% on the entrance examination and gets knocked off the list because the institution has to fill their quota of minority applicants even though they have scored lower. (examples too numerous to list)

As compared to hundreds of years of an 'only white men, 100% quota'?

I'm sorry, I respect you and enjoy speaking with you, but I think that this is a ridiculous argument.


Hold on, HH. I'm not so thrilled about quotas either. I think they do more damage than help. But there are other mechanisms that could be explored, like green zones, tax incentive programs, etc...

[edit on 6-10-2006 by loam]



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