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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
...especially when discussing something as 'emotional' as race relations....


This is an interesting point. Why is the issue of race-relations such an "emotional" issue?

I think it's fair to say that it's obvious for why that is the case for Black Americans, but I'd be curious to hear what some posters believe the reason is for White Americans?




posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by loam
Why is the issue of race-relations such an "emotional" issue?


I can't speak for anyone but myself, least of all "White America" but for me personally, it hurts to know that a group of people are treated badly for no reason. I care about people and I have experienced painful treatment by other people because of various reasons so I have an inkling how it is to be judged by my appearance, my gender, my race, and to be treated as "less than" someone else. I have experience of having my personal power totally stripped from me without my consent. It hurts to the core.

It's painful to be ridiculed. It's emotional to be judged - because I'm a woman or as unintelligent or just a pretty face. It's actually very painful to have a man talk to my chest instead of to the person behind my eyes, especially considering my past.

It's painful and emotional to discuss racism the same way it's painful and emotional to discuss having been raped or sexually abused. It's the taking from a person without that person's consent and the resultant pain and void and heartache that's left afterward. It's very emotional for me.

*Big sigh*



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

I would be and I am. Ceci, you presume white people's experiences and feelings by what you've read instead of listening to the real live people here on the board when we talk about our experiences and feelings. No matter how much we deny and repeat (just like you) how we really feel or think, it feels like you have decided what's going on in our hearts and minds without checking it out with us. It seems that when I say something about how I feel, I get completely negated by something you read on the Internet about "white people".


1)I've grown up around white people my entire life. I've mentioned this many times throughout all my threads. Is there something that you don't understand about this?

2)I've mentioned that you need the articles to help prove some of the ideas formulated about why some things happen---by people of all races. That's why I post them. Is there something you don't understand about this?

3)I don't presume anything. But I posted that article as a way of backing up my ideas of ownership. That's quite different from what you and others on this board were doing. You presume to speak for me and twist my words without any such proof, except because "it is your opinon".

4)I'm sorry you get negated. But unfortunately, you might get a taste of what Black people feel on a regular basis when their thoughts get constantly negated by the likes of you. Perhaps that will make you the least more sensitive to why discussing race from our point of view might be disturbing to some white people who feel they have to control everything--including how people ought to view race.

5)I don't always get my information from the Internet. It comes from life experience, study and of books related to the topic of ethnic and cultural studies. It is kind of insulting for you to say that I post these things "just because I read them off the Internet". Most of my articles came from scholarly studies. That says more about me than you on this entire thread. Some of us are treating this as a scholarly discussion. Others of us don't really know about aspects of race and are compensating by just claiming they've fought against "racism before I was born".

Is that why you face such resistance to reading Angela Y. Davis' book? She was a celebrated feminist and activist back in the day. She's also a professor as well.

Instead, I just think that what you are doing is the start of another drama queen episode. Next time, do not answer my posts written to another poster. It wasn't addressed to you. Take jsobecky's advice: don't bite.

Or do you not understand him?

All I can suggest right now is that you start your own thread so you don't have to deal with these issues any more. I can't stand to see you suffering any more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

loam, I will answer your questions a little later in the day. So, you will get my experiences about learning slavery. Thank you very much for being patient.




[edit on 5-10-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 02:46 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
1)I've grown up around white people my entire life. I've mentioned this many times throughout all my threads. Is there something that you don't understand about this?


No. I understand perfectly. I'm not sure what it has to do with our discussion here, though. Are you saying that the white people you grew up around are like me or other white people? Because our skin is the same color? If a person is white, you know how they think? Is that what you're saying? I'm not presuming, I'm asking.

What class were these white people you grew up around? Were they doctors and lawyers? Or were they farmers and service people? Did their children wear new and designer clothes or did they wear hand-me downs from their older siblings? Did each of their children have their own bedroom or did 3 or 4 of them have to share? Did they have a bathroom inside the house or did the 2 little girls have to go out to the outhouse together to keep each other company. Did they have a bathtub or did their mother throw them into a tub in the kitchen after everyone else had bathed? Did they have a TV? Did they eat out at restaurants or did they have to milk the cows, harvest the food and chop the heads off of the chickens and pick the feathers from them before they had dinner? Did these white people know the smell of a feathered chicken dipped in boiling water and can they remember that smell to this day?

Because I'm not so sure you're correct in thinking that all white people are like the white people you grew up around.




2)I've mentioned that you need the articles to help prove some of the ideas formulated about why some things happen---by people of all races. That's why I post them. Is there something you don't understand about this?


Again, no. I understand. But you are mistaken thinking that I need proof. I don't need proof of things I already know.



It is kind of insulting for you to say that I post these things "just because I read them of the Internet".


I didn't say that.



Others of us don't really know about aspects of race and are compensating by just claiming they've fought against "racism before they were born".


Since I'm the only one that said that, I take it that you mean that I am somehow compensating for something and that I don't really know about aspects of race. It certainly sounds like a presumption to me, and it's incorrect, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.



Is that why you face such resistance to reading Angela Y. Davis' book? She was a celebrated feminist and activist back in the day.


I have never read a feminist book in my life. I have real life experience, my own and women I know and have associated with over many years working in Corporate America. It's not someone else's experience, it's mine. I don't face resistance to reading the book, I was simply asking HH why she thinks I should.



[edit on 5-10-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic


So, What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

1.) STOP all presumptions and assumptions.
2.) ASK about experiences instead of TELLING about them.
3.) Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.

Ceci, do you agree?


I agree. But, as I mentioned above, it depends on critical thinking skills when choosing articles to post from the Internet. There is a difference between studies and journal articles opposed to one from any old site.

You seem to presume that I am just picking up articles willy nilly without any thought behind it. I believe that is very offensive, arrogant and derogatory to say so.

Perhaps you may read articles from the Internet that way, but I don't.

Plus, you still have the idea that I'm addressing all of my posts to you. Believe me, I am not. You are not the only white person on this thread. You are not the litmus test of how white people feel. You can only express things for yourself as myself and HH can express things by our own thoughts.





[edit on 5-10-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
You seem to presume that I am just picking up articles willy nilly without any thought behind it. I believe that is very offensive and derogatory to say so.


Let me just let you know that I absolutely don't think that. I have not said that and I do not think that.

I know you carefully choose scholarly articles that have been studied and can be backed up. I didn't put down your articles. I'm just saying that any article, scholarly or otherwise, that says, "White people do this" or "Black people do that" needs careful scrutiny. Because neither "white people" nor "black people" are one monolithic group to be categorized as feeling one why or thinking another way.

Don't you get my point that saying "White people feel entitled" is the same as saying "Black people feel angry"? Because I can show you plenty of scholarly articles to support the notion that "Black people are angry". Shall I?

How do you like me, a white person, telling you how black people feel?

...

Then why is it OK for you, a black person to tell me how white people feel?



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Plus, you still have the idea that I'm addressing all of my posts to you.


No, I don't. I am however, a white person. And when you or the scholarly articles say, "White people feel this way" I'm obligated to stand up and say that's not true! Just as you feel obligated to defend the idea that black people are angry. You say you're not angry.



You are not the only white person on this thread. You are not the litmus test of how white people feel. You can only express things for yourself


How many times have I said I'm speaking only for myself?


But I am a white person and when you group white people as feeling something, I have to say, "Wait! I'm white and I don't feel that way"!

[edit on 5-10-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 03:15 PM
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quote: Originally posted by ceci2006
Plus, you still have the idea that I'm addressing all of my posts to you.


No, I don't. I am however, a white person. And when you or the scholarly articles say, "White people feel this way" I'm obligated to stand up and say that's not true! Just as you feel obligated to defend the idea that black people are angry. You say you're not angry.


When you post on a board on the internet, you post for all to read and also for all to reply.

I'm pretty sure no one currently posting on this topic owns ATS or any of the threads and that this is not an email between any two parties.

We are all free to respond to any post that anyone posts I believe, could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure about this..

Semper



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 03:57 PM
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Yes, but you still have to be careful about what you post. I'm exceedingly careful.

But that's the double standard as well. Others do not have to be as exceedingly careful in order to have their information praised and valued as something of worth. And depending on who posts it, they don't have to worry about whether whatever they post may be considered "intellectual" or not.

I wonder why that is.

And then if an article says something particularly true about white people, what would you say then? Especially if they are written by white authors? The majority of my articles posted in this thread are written by white people.

[edit on 5-10-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 04:04 PM
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And then if an article says something particularly true about white people, what would you say then? Especially if they are written by white authors? The majority of my articles posted in this thread are written by white people.


Are you differentiating and evaluating the worth of an article based on the color of the person that wrote it?

If one were to do that, would that not be promoting racism? Or at the least advocating the perpetuation of the issue?

Semper



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Especially if they are written by white authors? The majority of my articles posted in this thread are written by white people.


That doesn't matter at all to me. White people's generalizations about people are no more accurate than black people's generalizations. This is the whole point I've been trying to make. Generalizations, while they contain some truth are not the Truth and are fairly worthless.

If that were the case, we could say that Americans love George Bush. Is that true? Sure. Some Americans obviously do and some don't. But if an American says, "Americans love George Bush" I'm going to stand up and say, ""Hey! Wait just a minute there, buddy! I"m an American and I don't"!

Aren't you???

If we (as white people) are supposed to believe everything white people say, then wouldn't it follow that you would go along with the black people who are against reparations? Hey! A black person said it, you should believe it! -- That's absurd on the face, isn't it?



[edit on 5-10-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic
What class were these white people you grew up around?


I've grew up around poor, middle-class and rich whites. I've also grew up around whites from many countries. Some even baby-sat me. I, along with my sister, baby-sat the children of my parents' friends.



Were they doctors and lawyers?


Some were--even a few judges, two past mayors, business owners, intellectuals and other important dignitaries.


Or were they farmers and service people?


Some were farmers. Still others were sharecroppers. Others headed wineries, orchards and other agricultural businesses. Some were maintenance men and mechanics. Others worked at Wal Mart, fast food places and of course other assorted places.

This is certainly the case of the white people who were from my mother's home town.


Did their children wear new and designer clothes or did they wear hand-me downs from their older siblings?


Both.


Did each of their children have their own bedroom or did 3 or 4 of them have to share?


Both.


Did they have a bathroom inside the house or did the 2 little girls have to go out to the outhouse together to keep each other company.


Both. But, that has changed in the small towns my relatives lived in.


Did they have a bathtub or did their mother throw them into a tub in the kitchen after everyone else had bathed?


Both.


Did they have a TV?


Some did. Others didn't.


Did they eat out at restaurants or did they have to milk the cows, harvest the food and chop the heads off of the chickens and pick the feathers from them before they had dinner?


Both. Especially just like my mother did when she grew up on her farm.


Did these white people know the smell of a feathered chicken dipped in boiling water and can they remember that smell to this day?


Just as my mother did. She and the people that came from the country knew how to ring a chicken's neck and boil them in water to make the feathers softer to pluck. All the people she knew (especially those whites that were around her family) did that. I knew the elder members as well as their kids. They even know the difference in the taste between a fresh chicken and one that comes out of the store.

Look. I've been around the sophisticated and the down to earth. I've been around gay, lesbian and transgender whites. I've been around Goths and Punks. I been around rich, Republicans. I've also known hippies and their kids.

So, yes, most definitely, I've been around whites from many types of backgrounds. Some of which, I have shared this thread with in the real world. And the difference is, every time they read what you all have said to me, they give me a long hug and tell me to keep up the fight because I'm doing a good thing.

So, I don't know what you are trying to prove. I've been around them all from my birth to the present day--right along with other races. When I said I came from a multi-cultural and international background, I mean I did.

Even down to my own family. Two of my cousins are married to white people. One came from a trailer park.

But you're right. There is a difference between those white people and the ones on this board. They talk about diversity. They have their opinions, but they still listen to mine and discuss them with me without talk of behavior or hostility. They are generous, kind and very refined people who know how to treat others with respect and dignity. I'm glad I met them first.


How do you like me, a white person, telling you how black people feel?


You and others do it all the time without even considering how anyone feels.



Then why is it OK for you, a black person to tell me how white people feel?


It isn't okay. But, there's a difference between scholarly articles and what people say, isn't there? Yes, the words come back to me now from another person who hid behind her opinon to speak about how I'm supposed to feel. Let me see what the words were: It's what I think. You do not have to agree. And I'm sure you don't. But a opinion isn't right or wrong. It's what I see.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for slavery, I first heard about it in elementary school. My introduction to it was the story of Harriet Tubman. Although my heart hurt as I heard about her life, I grew very inspired by the courage she presented as she conducted the Underground railroad. Soon after that, my mother and father told my sister and myself about the slaves in their families.

Later than that, we had to do a report on our family trees. My parents then gave us more information about the family. But, they spoke of it as a source of pride because both sides of my family had to endure quite a lot to make it in America--during Slavery and afterward. They never presented these stories in anger. They were presented in terms of history and pride about our ancestors.

Because of that, I know that I have their blood in me. Through my ancestors, I am also a resilient person who can withstand anything.

But the only time it became truly emotional was when I visited the headstones of the earliest known ancestors of my mother's family and the auction block from which they were sold. It is amazing that there were people who lacked the conscience and the humanity to do such a horrific act to another race of people.





[edit on 5-10-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 08:51 PM
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So there are no answers on this thread?

Semper



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally quoted by semperfortis


Are you differentiating and evaluating the worth of an article based on the color of the person that wrote it?


I haven't, but somebody has.



If one were to do that, would that not be promoting racism? Or at the least advocating the perpetuation of the issue?


Sure it is. But those that do would have to be at peace with their conscience and higher power to do that, wouldn't they?


[edit on 5-10-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 09:10 PM
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Semper,

I'd still like to know why you posted that stuff about NOLA. What point were you trying to make? You didn't say anything but, 'these might be interesting reading.'






posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 09:39 PM
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HH

I as continuing to try and show the "other" side to racism. Although it is VERY evident just reading the posting on here, I felt some instances from the "real" world would help to even things out and stop people from the post after post of infighting.

Having served 20 years this year in this uniform and 5 before that in the Marines, I have experienced racism in ways perhaps no one else on this thread can imagine. See I was "The Man!" I know what it is like to walk through a neighborhood being hated by EVERYONE, not just a percentage, everyone.
I know what it is to round a corner and catch a brick with my forehead. (47 Stitches and a concussion)

Dominant culture, recessive culture, culture culture, WHO CARES. This thread has degraded into the most incredible example of WHAT NOT to do to address anything, much less racism. I have not felt so much racism ever since leaving the Projects and moving here.

Why do I keep posting if I feel that way? Hope, HH, Hope that eventually the racist ones on here will get a clue and stop the hate. I did not know the article I posted was "debunked" and still I am not 100% sure the debunking was not some political effort. Regardless, some peoples attempt to assign racism to one specific group targeting another is without a doubt the most ridiculous, unintelligent effort I have observed on here.

In 20 years I received 1 gunshot wound, 3 stab wounds, 13 concussions, 6 broken ribs and various contusions. Most of these were in the line of duty and I accept them as part of what I did/do for a living. Yet, the brick, the 2X4 to the head while changing a strangers tire, the knife in the Glutamous(No Laughing please) they were all attacks on ME, not when I was enforcing anything.
I guess it just gripes my tail to hear about how much someone has suffered because of racism, when I'm sure they have not had 1/10 the hospital time I have had because of who I am.

Some will say it is because I was a cop, not because I was white. Does that make it any better? Is that any less racist, any more politically correct? Maybe it was because I am a white cop? Still, no one on here needs to tell me about suffering because of who they are.

That is why I can say with complete conviction that the only issues that involve race with racism, are the ones on here. Racist behavior is color blind, anyone can and anyone does experience it, and commits it.

Semper



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 09:47 PM
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Racism is color blind. I agree.

But why are all the accounts of racism always come back to some groups of white people? Some white theorists, scholars and dignitaries even write about the racist efforts of others belonging to the same race. The majority comes from reports, scholarly journals and government committees.

So, are you saying that the whites who have written histories about the racist acts of the past against people of color are not intellectual? That their reseach doesn't have any merit?

So, it is not stupid or inane to dicuss race in this manner. They, like Robert Jensen, have found a source to this problem and they are not afraid to discuss it. This is a racism that has proof in society, politics and history. Not to mention, the aspects of privilege.

Or else, you could experiment with your brand of talking about race. Create a thread with a methodology of your own criteria. I'd be interested to read the responses to you. We'll see if it is the intellectual discussion you had hoped for.



[edit on 5-10-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 10:07 PM
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My response is simple and exactly the same opinion I gave you earlier on in this thread.

If you wanted to do what YOU are doing, focus on White Racism Against Blacks, why did you not title the thread that way?

Why lead everyone on here to believe that you intended on talking about racism in general, when you have yet to do that in all of these pages?

There is TREMENDOUS racism being enacted on the black race by whites, so you would have had plenty of material.
Why then, lead us to believe you were after something more intellectual, more ethereal, more complete and then never pursue that goal?

Was it shear frustration at having been turned down for your own forum? After all the pages here, it appears you have your own mini forum anyway. You have been free to post articles, insult posters and spout racism to your hearts content.

Racism is a Human condition and far deeper than the one issue of white on black racism. The psychological aspects of this phenomenon are yet to be completely understood and part of this is the never ending failure of someone wanting others to see them as a victim. To lament that their tragedy is far and above what tragedies others may have suffered. Usually backed up with "Well look what my great great grandparents endured." Supposing that should allow some leeway to ones actions, some acceptance to misbehavior.

Want to discuss racism? Sure, I'll do it all day. But discuss the psychological and historical aspects of the human condition that backgrounds the reasons for the behavior. Discuss learned behavior, double blind studies, Freudian Principles even the Socio-Anthrapological impacts throughout history. I am all for intellectual examinations of any and all humanistic experiences, but not the languishing in our own victimization and unrepentant hatred based on the same priciples.

What to discuss race?
I'm all for it. When does it start.

Semper



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
As for slavery, I first heard about it in elementary school. My introduction to it was the story of Harriet Tubman. Although my heart hurt as I heard about her life, I grew very inspired by the courage she presented as she conducted the Underground railroad. Soon after that, my mother and father told my sister and myself about the slaves in their family. And later than that, we had to do a report on our family trees. My parents then gave us more information about the family. But, they spoke of it as a source of pride because both sides of my family had to endure quite a lot to make it in America--during Slavery and afterward. They never presented these stories in anger. They were presented in terms of history and pride about our ancestors.

Our ancestors were smart, crafty and rather resilient. And because of that, I know that I have their blood in me, I am also a resilient person who can withstand anything.

But the only time it became truly emotional was when I visited the headstones of the earliest known descendants of my mother's family and the auction block of which they were sold. It is amazing that there were people who lacked the conscience and the humanity to do that to another race of people.



Thanks for sharing.


Originally posted by semperfortis
So there are no answers on this thread?

Semper


I am becoming less certain there is.



posted on Oct, 5 2006 @ 10:24 PM
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I don't see the discussion of experiences as a form of victimhood. I see it as a form of empowerment because Blacks and other people of color were always told by those who sponsored a uni-lateral society to be ashamed of their heritage and lives. It's about time our side was heard instead of sitting back and being ingrained with the history and culture of whites everyday yearly as long as we can remember.

For you, you probably see history and "history" because your race is constantly validated.

For us, we have to make sure our heritage, cultures and history is also adopted in the larger expanse of discussion. Without us, we'd hear the same old crap over and over while our histories get ignored.

And about the forum? That is over. I've made peace with it. In fact, you can read all about that on my blog. You have sorely underestimated me if I'm still upset by it.


[edit on 5-10-2006 by ceci2006]



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