What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

Don't bite, BH. It will never stop as long as you take the bait.

Some interesting reading for your spare time..

But part of it, no matter how high-minded the goal, is also simplistic. To suggest that blacks cannot be racist is almost like suggesting that gays cannot be homophobic or women cannot be sexist. But the truth is we are all of those things. We all live in the same racist, sexist, classist, misogynist, homophobic, heterosexist, culturally imperialistic society. We don't lose our moral authority by acknowledging the ways in which a prejudiced world has affected the thoughts of oppressed people.

The first step to creating a better world is acknowledging the reality of the world around us.
~~~~~~~
Time magazine writer Andrew Sullivan and Washington Post staff writer Frank Ahrens have had the same experience. They've learned that white people sometimes get called nasty names by black people in inner city neighborhoods.

In Sullivan's example, he reports being called "faggot" quite a few times in the inner city neighborhood he's lived in for 14 years. Ahrens, meanwhile, reports a recent verbal assault he experienced by a sidewalk saxophonist who told him "white people suck." That's disappointing to hear, but not exactly surprising. The ongoing trend of white gay gentrification of previously black family neighborhoods has exposed deep divisions between blacks and whites, and more specifically between blacks and white gay men. It's also raised a provocative question: Can blacks be racist?
www.keithboykin.com...

Some about New Orleans...

Blacks Turn On Whites In New Orleans Superdome

An Australian newspaper reports on black crime against Australians in the Superdome motivated by racial differences.

Brisbane's John McNeil, 22, told his family he'd witnessed murders, rapes and stabbings, and feared he would be killed.

Mr McNeil's father, Peter, said his son was with about 60 other foreign tourists who had fled the Superdome.

"They couldn't stay another night, the situation was so bad," he said.

"People were just staring at them and making suggestions that they were going to kill them."

John's sister Susie said he saw shocking acts of violence amid fierce racial tension in the Superdome.

"It's turned into a black against white thing," she said. "My brother has witnessed murders, stabbings, rapes . . . it's like a Third World country."
~~~~~~~
"Then last night our mother got a call saying the situation had deteriorated.

"He witnessed a good deal of violence, with scuffles going on and people breaking things.
"The group really feared for their safety because they were being targeted because they were the only white people there.

"The National Guard moved them out into the basketball stadium next door where the very sick were being held.
~~~~~~~
The British wire service Reuters also reports on black hostility toward whites in New Orleans.

Valenti and her husband, two of very few white people in the almost exclusively black refugee camp, said she and other whites were threatened with murder on Thursday.

"They hated us. Four young black men told us the buses were going to come last night and pick up the elderly so they were going to kill us," she said, sobbing. "They were plotting to murder us and then they sent the buses away because we would all be killed if the buses came -- that's what the people in charge told us this morning."

Other survivors recounted horrific cases of sexual assault and murder.

But we are not supposed to discuss this. The official liberal script writes in non-liberal whites as the bad guys and blacks as the victims. American liberalism is intellectually and morally bankrupt. It is based on a bright shining lie.
~~~~~~~
By Thursday, they decided to enter the lines leaving the complex. By then it smelled so horrid neither friend could find a word to describe the odor. They were at first glad to be on the bridge outside, but soon found themselves hot, squished, and scared. A woman behind the pair had two German Shepards that were getting violent, and had nipped at my friends. One friend finally turned around and asked her to keep her dogs away from them. She screamed, “It’s just because you hate black people!” “Uh-oh”, they thought, “we’re dead now!” Luckily, the crowd didn’t turn on them, and they were safe. After 14 hours they made it to the front of the line. The pair got separated, and one got on a bus 4 hours before the other. The last one to get a bus told me of how the bus driver gave every seat a trash bag, asking the people to use them. After arriving in Dallas Saturday morning, however, the bus was strewn with litter.
~~~~~~~
www.parapundit.com...

Above is interesting from a foreigners point of view...

More from New Orleans..

New Orleans was killed alright, but label this death suicide, not homicide. She survived the outside attack. What she couldn't survive was the internal one.

Her own people struck the fatal blow...her own black people.
~~~~~~~
You see, truth isn't racist, or sexist, or prejudiced in any way. It simply is. Only a fool or a liar fears the truth--those who are justifying and excusing the behavior of the blacks are both of these, with a little hypocrisy and cowardice thrown in the mix for good measure. The truth of this situation, no matter how many fits you throw, is that the rape, looting, murder, and mayhem is being committed overwhelmingly by blacks. By blacks. By blacks. Get it? By blacks who are often deliberately targeting whites. Do you think they'll be charged under Hate Crime Statutes? I don't think so...blacks raping or killing whites is justified by our Politically Castrated system.

My black brothers and sisters, where are you in this fight? Why aren't you condemning these people and calling for justice the same way I do whenever whites behave this way? Those of you who would defend this indefensible behavior are as guilty as these marauding gangs. For that, you should be ashamed of yourselves...I know I'm certainly ashamed of you.
www.theconservativevoice.com...

Very eye opening revelations from not only a foreign point of view, but Black Authors as well...
Worth the read..

Semper

Originally posted by ceci2006

]Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If you want to talk about white people respecting, listening, and being empathetic to your point of view, isn't it important that you be extra sure that you are practicing these principles as well?

No. It's not as high on my list as it is on yours.

That's pretty sad, ceci. I keep giving you the benefit of the doubt, but you make it so difficult.

I hate watching a bright, caring and articulate member like yourself lash out in ways that obscure the manner in which each of those adjectives normally apply to you. YOU ARE BETTER THAN THIS! I know it, because I have seen it. Others in this thread have also said as much...

Earlier you asked me what "pain" you have? I answered generally, because I would obviously not know the details of your experiences... But even the absence of that knowledge did little to mask its obvious presence in you.

There have been a few moments in this thread, during our exchanges with one another, where for a fleeting moment the thought occurred to me that you might still be fairly young... (TAKE A DEEP BREATH, this is not going where you think.)

I wished I had paused earlier in this thread to consider those fleeting thoughts...largely because I think they might have tempered my approach with you a bit.

(Please bear with me, I'll explain why...)

I can't imagine what it must have been like the very first moment, when as a child, you learned of the concept of racism... and that it WOULD apply to YOU ...and that there was anything such as slavery.

The shock...

The desire to deny its reality...

The anger against it...

The sense of injustice...

The fear...

The sorrow...

I can't imagine the full extent of it. But I can imagine enough of it to be sickened by it.

The thought that any child would have to loose their innocence in that way is heartbreaking enough... but the crime it represents is almost incomprehensible when you consider that this is a reality for EVERY Black American child today who must lose their innocence in this manner.

I don't claim to know the specific experience of it...or whether you even remember the precise moment when you learned of such terrible things...but I am quite certain that you never saw the world in the same way again.

I have more than a few years under my belt, and what I have surprisingly learned is that much of what truly impacted me as a child I continue to carry today. I believe this to be a universal truth for everyone.

The reason I wish I had listened to those fleeting moments where I considered your age is not because I think you "immature" in a pejorative or belittling sense, but rather because I understand how the closer in proximity you are to a painful experience the more profound it is to you.

That made me realize something. For Black Americans, that experience starts with the horrible moment of realization I mentioned above, and likely continues (via actual experience) for the remainder of your lives.

That is a special burden, I agree, requires understanding.

Sometimes...but not always...age helps us manage the intensity of our feelings. If we're really lucky, it might even bring some understanding of how to use our previous experiences (good and bad alike) to shape our future for the better.

But life can be a difficult journey, and not all have the capacity or skill to navigate it well.

So when help can be offered, it should...and when it's offered, it should be taken.

In the end, we can only be ambassadors of our own experiences.

If we really want to improve race-relations, then two ingredients at a minimum are required from everyone: Sharing...and...respect.

I know of no better way to encourage such behavior, than to commit oneself as an example of it.

If I didn't demonstrate it previously, then I'm announcing my intention to doing so moving forward.

The solution to improving race-relations can only start with the self.

Ceci, I'm revising my list...I hope you will too.



[edit on 4-10-2006 by loam]

Although I respect your opinon, loam, I feel what you are saying is very patronizing in the very least.

Do you do this to other members on the board? Or do you just pick out the posters of color to tell them "that they know they can do better that this"?

It sounds to me that there is only one way to see this, and my way isn't included. And there isn't any freedom to express myself the way I want to, yet that very same freedom is bestowed on others. This is happening on my very own thread !?!

Thanks, but no thanks.

I'm not immature. I'm still kind, loving and gracious. But when you've been used as racial football and kicked relentlessly over and over again by other posters on the board, you'd kind of have a wary opinon of things too. Would you not?

You'd even fight back if you didn't want to be kicked again, wouldn't you?

I've never been angry, btw. I am just truly disheartened over how other posters can ruin a good thing.


[edit on 4-10-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Although I respect your opinon, loam, I feel what you are saying is very patronizing in the very least.

No. You read it as patronizing. The words were written with the most honest of intent.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Do you do this to other members on the board?

Just the ones I tend to like.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Or do you just pick out the posters of color to tell them "that they know they can do better that this"?

I wish you didn't think that my real intention. Prior to this thread (and the other one) I had no idea what color you were.

Originally posted by ceci2006
It sounds to me that there is only one way to see this, and it isn't my way.

How effective has your way been in this thread? If you re-read my last post in the way it was intended, what concepts would you disagree with?

Originally posted by ceci2006
And there isn't any freedom to express myself the way I want to, yet that very same freedom is bestowed on others.

No one has prevented your expression. You have determined the content of your posts.

But you need to remember this medium (ATS) is a discussion board... And in this thread, the title asks a specific question.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Thanks, but no thanks.

Again, I wish you would accept the genuineness of my intentions. But of course, you are free to do otherwise. The only question I would have is why you would make that choice?

Originally posted by ceci2006
I'm not immature.

I didn't call you immature.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I'm still kind, loving and gracious.

I'm sure you are. But in this thread that is harder to see. Particularly now, in your latest response.

I'm sorry if you feel I have given you cause to not trust my honest intentions.

Originally posted by ceci2006
But when you've been used as racial football and kicked relentlessly over and over again by other posters on the board, you'd kind of have a wary opinon of things too. Would you not?

I understand.

Originally posted by ceci2006
You'd even fight back if you didn't want to be kicked again, wouldn't you?

Probably.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I've never been angry, btw. I am just truly disheartened over how other posters can ruin a good thing.

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

Originally posted by loam
In the end, we can only be ambassadors of our own experiences.

And...

Originally posted by loam
The solution to improving race-relations can only start with the self.

I really do hope you believe my intentions honest.

I actually have many questions about your experiences I'd like to ask.


[edit on 4-10-2006 by loam]

BH,

The talk we were having inspired me to search my house for a book that might answer a lot of your questions about black women vs. 'feminists.' I implore you to go out and get it, I got a paperback copy for $11. It's Women, Race, and Class, by Angela Y. Davis. I'm going to give you an excerpt, since I can't find the text online.

This first bit is historical. It underscores the class differences between white women of the time and black women, the vast majority of whom were their maids. I chose this passage because I think it clarifies the source of the tension between black and white feminists.

In 1902 the author of an article entitled "A Nine-Hour Day for Domestic Servents" described a conversation with a feminist friend who had asked her to sign a petition urging employers to furnish seats for women clerks.

"The girls," she said, "have to stand on their feet ten hours a day and it makes my heart ache to see their tired faces."
"Mrs. Jones," said I, "how many hours a day does your maid stand upon her feet?"
"Why, I don't know," she gasped, "five or six I suppose."
"At what time does she rise?"
"At six."
"And at what hour does she finish at night?"
"Oh, about eight, I think, generally."
"That makes fourteen hours..."
"...(S)he can often sit down at her work."
"At what work? Washing? Ironing? Sweeping? Making beds? Cooking? Wasking dishes?... Perhaps she sits for two hours at meals and preparing vegetables, and four days a week she has an hour in the afternooon. According to that, your maid is on her feet at least eleven hours a day with a score of stair-climbings included. It seems to me that her case is more pitiable than that of a store clerk."
My caller rose with red cheeks and flashing eyes. "My maid always has Sunday after dinner," she said.
"Yes, but the clerk has all day Sunday. Please don't go until I have signed that petition. No one would be more thankful than I to see the clerks have a chance to sit..."

[Davis' commentary on the article:]This feminist activist was perpetrating the very oppression she protested. Yet her contradictory behavior and her inordinate insensitivity are not without explanation, for people who work as servants are generally viewed as less than human beings. Inherent in the dynamic of the master-servant (or mistress-maid) relationship, said the philosopher Hegel, is the constant striving to annihilate the consciousness of the servant. The clerk referred to in the conversation was a wage laborer- a human being possessing at least a modicum of independence from her employer and her work. The servant, on the other hand, labored solely for the purpose of satisfying her mistress' needs. Probably viewing her servant as a mere extension of herself, the feminist could hardly be conscious of her own active role as an oppressor.

pgs 96-97

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Is there really a set of concerns for black women and an entirely different set of concerns for white women?

I think so. On one hand, I'm a woman, so I am extremely concerned about typically "female" issues which include those that affect us (like rape, domestic violence, the male-female wage gap) or those that affect our children (child abuse, etc.) OTOH, I'm a black woman, so I have additional issues. My children will be black, so I have the added worry of police brutality, and economic, social, and political disenfranchisement. And, when it comes to the wage gap between white women and black women, I'm very pissed. [If we compare the two, having designated white men as earning 100%, as of 2004, white women make 76.7% vs black women at 68.4%. If you take a look at the chart, you'll see that white women even earn more than black men. BTW, these stats should also make it extremely obvious why blacks always lag behind whites financially- it's set up that way!]

I admit I may not have been as open to the real meat of the article because of the generalizations that abound.

I understand your feelings, but when someone (I forget who) gave me a link to adversity.net, and I was as turned off as you are, I still made a point to respond to the concerns raised. This is supposed to be a conversation amongst intellectuals.

I'm sure there are some general differences between white women and black women, but I personally see us as having much more in common than say white women and white men.

Barely, but not really. For one thing, when it comes to the wage-gap, I see white women as bitching about nothing, or almost nothing. You're doing much better than the rest of us women, and most of the men.

Originally posted by semperfortis

The ongoing trend of white gay gentrification of previously black family neighborhoods has exposed deep divisions between blacks and whites, and more specifically between blacks and white gay men. It's also raised a provocative question: Can blacks be racist?

A better question would be: How did they expect to be greeted?

Some about New Orleans...

Semper, I'm surprised at you. Wasn't that debunked? I thought the police chief came out a few days later and admitted that he he had mistakenly passed on exxagerated reports.

New Orlean violence overblown...maybe

This is the only thread I could find, since I'm not too proficient with the search option, but I'm sure you could find more. I have more to say but, since you posted these articles without any commentary, I don't know where you stand. I wouldn't want to make any assumptions.

Originally quoted by loamNo. You read it as patronizing. The words were written with the most honest of intent.

I'm sure you were being truly honest in your attempt. I respect you for saying so. But, I truly do believe that it was done in a patronizing manner. You were conveying your words to me as if you were sending "little Johnny" to "time out" in order to think about what he's done. And, I truly don't need to go to "time out". I know how I felt about the post and I truly apologize that we disagree on its tenor.

Just the ones I tend to like.

I like you too, loam. I've always admired and respected your posts.

I wish you didn't think that my real intention. Prior to this thread (and the other one) I had no idea what color you were.

I believe you. But, the problem is that it seems that you are also jumping on the bandwagon to solely blame me for the cause. I tend to think that the blame ought to be spread around. And someone who is really impartial about this entire thread might see the troubles occurring from many sources and not just one.

How effective has your way been in this thread? If you re-read my last post in the way it was intended, what concepts would you disagree with?

Plenty, to tell you the truth:

1)In the first sentence, by you "keep on giving me the benefit of the doubt", it sounds as if my ideas and opinions are solely on trial. It is rather condescending to think that I'm the one you're only judging instead of the insights of others. Many other people contributed to this thread and the only one you take issue with is me?

2)By telling me that you hate seeing me "lash out like that", you tend to have the idea that this is something I do regularly. I truly don't. But, I honestly think that you would not use those types of words to describe the behavior of a white poster. There have been other posters who have "lashed out" regularly on the board (and not only at me) regardless of color. Not a one talks about how they act. Yet, they continue to focus on my behavior. I wonder why. Still, this is very condescending at the very least.

3)You tend to act as if I have "pain" about this subject. I don't. How many times do I have to say that to get yourself and others to believe me? I've said I'm pretty neutral about talks regarding race-relations. People continue to put their perceptions of how I view race on the table without even thinking about what I might say or feel about the comments. I've said that when I get angry, I get angry at people. People continue to say I get angry at whites. So how many times does it take to get you and the others to stop putting my behavior on trial? Is it so hard for you and others to stop this exercise?

Secondly, when I do express any sort of frustration, yourself and others act like as if it is against the law to show any emotion, let alone anger. As soon as a person of color expresses a sense of anger, it is immediately construed as a form of "violence". I find that shameful and rather derogatory each time the finger wags at this notion. Besides, I have said many times that I do not advocate violence. I have written about my pacifist views both on the board and the blog. What is it about this that you and the others do not understand?

4)Again, you are talking down to me because you perceive I'm still a child or a teen. I am not. I am an adult. Therefore, you are not treating me as an equal. As an adult, I think I deserve to be spoken to as one, and not like Fido (while being patted on the head).

5)Although I understand what you mean by discussing the concept of childhood, I still think that it is condescending to presume what my experiences were and are. You never did ask me. You just went on and commented about them. If someone did that to you, wouldn't you be a little offended?

No one has prevented your expression. You have determined the content of your posts.
But you need to remember this medium (ATS) is a discussion board... And in this thread, the title asks a specific question.

The concept of "ownership" does have an affect on how one might view posting on the board. For people who have received privileges their entire life, sure it might seem that the poster determines the content of their posts. But, the specific question was open-ended. And of course, this brings out many insights--which are tailored to the issue or question brought up. However, with the sense of "ownership", one tends to ignore that there are forces greater than autonomy which exist that can color the perception as well as the content of the post.

When others ignore this concept because they have been part of receiving privileges in an "ownership" style, they tend to ignore that there are greater issues as play. In fact, they may use that concept of "ownership" and "privilege" to lord over others into gearing the subject matter towards one way of thinking instead of allowing a multi-lateral point of view.

This is especially said well in an article that I posted earlier in the thread:

Whites have an easy sense of ownership of the country; they feel they are entitled to receive all that is best in it. Many of them believe that their country(though it may have some faults)is superior to all others and that, as Americans, they are superior as well. Many of them think of this as a white country and some of them even experience it that way.They think of it as a land of opportunity‹a good place with a lot of good people in it. Some suspect (others know) that the presence of blacks messes everything up.

It is reasons such as the one above why uni-lateral thinking will be tolerated while multi-lateral thinking will not.

Again, I wish you would accept the genuineness of my intentions. But of course, you are free to do otherwise. The only question I would have is why you would make that choice?

I accept your geniune nature. I choose to because I basically believe that you are a good person who is trying to comment to the best of his ability on this issue. However, I disagree with you because of cultural difference as well as the insight from watching how people can twist things to their own ability in order to subjugate others. They also use these tactics to intimidate and bully people of color.

Let's face it. Some people aren't that nice. Some say the right things in order to reel you in; but in the end, they use that kindness as a trap.Then they turn on you and send you to isolation. And that's how talks go sometimes when individual prejudices creep in.

Truly geniune souls are rare.

I'm sure you are. But in this thread that is harder to see. Particularly now, in your latest response.

I'm tired of being walked on by others who constantly bully me. I'm sure you'd understand that with all the bullying that happens on the board that you would be hard pressed to willingly place yourself as the focal point of target practice. I'm tired of getting belittled by others because of my concepts. I'm standing up for myself in order of self-defense. Here too, I've said this many, many times on this thread. I just wonder what people don't understand about this as well.

I'm sorry if you feel I have given you cause to not trust my honest intentions.

It is your actions and words on the board that will make the decision for me. After all, there are great people here I've truly met. They accept me as I am. I accept them as they are. And no one argues about behavior because of that plain acceptance. They don't bully, finger-wag or patronize me. They speak to me as they would anyone else. And they don't lord over me with their pronouncements of how I should feel or act.

That is quite a difference from what has been said in this thread.

And if, I am wary of you, there is a reason why I am. And that is because enough hasn't been proven to me that you are geniune and kind. And that goes with all races.

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

Originally posted by loam
In the end, we can only be ambassadors of our own experiences.

I really do hope you believe my intentions honest.

If you keep on demonstrating that you're honest with me and treat me with a sense of dignity, then I will do the same for you. But talking down to someone is not treating them with dignity or respect. Telling others about their behavior is not a way to gain points in honest intentions.

I actually have many questions about your experiences I'd like to ask.

Perhaps this should have been the angle to start out with opposed to talking about my behavior, ideas and posting style. Then, we would have started on a better foot. I would have been less wary of your intentions.




[edit on 5-10-2006 by ceci2006]

This is a hot subject.many have tryed to explain the rascism in human nature, but it still is a complex thing to understend. it looks after all that it is a natural basic instinct we all have. one more then others. and maybe it is related to the ancient need to mark a territory, or "breeding" problem, we see that all the time in animals this days., well as i say first, it is very difficult to find a logic legitimate reazon for the rascism.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Perhaps this should have been the angle to start out with opposed to talking about my behavior, ideas and posting style. Then, we would have started on a better foot. I would have been less wary of your intentions.

Very well, then allow me the opportunity to do that now.

When was the time you first became aware of slavery? In what manner did you learn of it? And, what was your reaction to it?


[edit on 5-10-2006 by loam]

Awwww, Ceci and loam (sniffle, sniffle), that was beautiful...

Originally posted by ceci2006
Do you do this to other members on the board? ... tell them "that they know they can do better that this"?

YES he pretty much has. Me. And obviously he didn't tell me because I was black. And two of the mods have said it to me twice over the years that I have been here as well. One when i first got here and one last week.

"why did you say that? you are better than that?"
"Don't post like that. I know you are better than that"

The mods exact words.

My response .... I thought about it and found that they were right. I told them so and apologized for what I said. I was having an off day. Know why I did that? Because they were right. And when someone says 'you are better than that' it isn't a slam. It's actually a compliment and an inquiry as to why that person is having an off day and to pay attention to that fact.



[edit on 10/5/2006 by FlyersFan]

God why is this thread still floating around?? It's stuff like this that perpetuates racism. Move along people, nothing to see here.

Semper, I'm surprised at you. Wasn't that debunked?

I'm "Alookin" HH...

Could be it was. It was the first time I had read it....

I will get back to you on this..


Semper

Originally posted by Escrotumus
Move along people, nothing to see here.

Yep. It's like driving by a major car accident and rubber necking.

Did ya'll see escrotumus' signature ... it's worth posting for review ...

signature
Escro's Law: As a thread grows longer, the probability of somebody pulling the race card and crying racism approaches one."

There is a tradition on many sites that once this occurs, that thread is over and this person has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

*************************************

I had signed off but came back a couple of days ago to post a WATS for BH .. then i got sucked back in. This time ... I have no more WATS and I won't be back on.
Escrotumus is right... time to move on. ( BH was right as well when a while back she said this thread wasn't good for the soul.) Instead of spending time on this thread, I'll use those few moments to pray for everyone. It's worth more than words at this point.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by semperfortis

Some about New Orleans...

Semper, I'm surprised at you. Wasn't that debunked? I thought the police chief came out a few days later and admitted that he he had mistakenly passed on exxagerated reports.

You are right HH, those reports were completely debunked and proven to be false. There was even a Discovery Channel Documentary Surviving Katrina which contained a segment about how the major news agencies ran with false reports without having any sort of proof or verification. Here are a few more links about the situation.
LA Times
Reason Online
Seattle Times

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by ceci2006
Do you do this to other members on the board? ... tell them "that they know they can do better that this"?

YES he pretty much has. Me.

Yup. ...Because I happen to tend to like you too.

...even though I disagree with pretty much what you say half of the time.


[edit on 5-10-2006 by loam]

Originally posted by ceci2006
5)Although I understand what you mean by discussing the concept of childhood, I still think that it is condescending to presume what my experiences were and are. You never did ask me. You just went on and commented about them. If someone did that to you, wouldn't you be a little offended?

I would be and I am. Ceci, you presume white people's experiences and feelings by what you've read instead of listening to the real live people here on the board when we talk about our experiences and feelings. No matter how much we deny and repeat (just like you) how we really feel or think, it feels like you have decided what's going on in our hearts and minds without checking it out with us. It seems that when I say something about how I feel, I get completely negated by something you read on the Internet about "white people".

Whites have an easy sense of ownership of the country; they feel they are entitled to receive all that is best in it.
...
Some suspect (others know) that the presence of blacks messes everything up.

It seems you'd rather presume that we feel privilege, ownership and entitlement because of something you read about whites on the Internet or in a book rather than ask us how we really feel. When you take what you read in some "scholarly" article and apply it to me, a real live person, without asking me if it's what I feel, rather presuming that because I'm white that I must feel that way, it feels just as patronizing and condescending to me as it does to you.

So, I totally agree with you that none of us should be presuming that because of a person's color, they must have gone through certain experiences or have certain feelings. We are all individuals, not to be grouped into black or white. Not all black people have issues or anger around race and like it or not, not all white people have feelings of privilege and entitlement.

So, What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

1.) STOP all presumptions and assumptions.
2.) ASK about experiences instead of TELLING about them.
3.) Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.

Ceci, do you agree?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So, What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

1.) STOP all presumptions and assumptions.
2.) ASK about experiences instead of TELLING about them.
3.) Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.

I can agree with this.

Hi HH! Please bear with me while I try to explain my response to your information here.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
BH,

Women, Race, and Class, by Angela Y. Davis.

I'm sorry, but I feel totally confused. I really need some help in understanding what kind of response you are hoping to get or wanting from me on this, if any.

Here's my natural response: Jesus! This insensitive woman! How could she possibly not be conscious of how she's making her maid into a 'less than human' by not considering the hours she spends on her feet as compared to the clerk, for whom she has so much sympathy??? It's just stupid! I cannot believe some people are so blind!

It's a class thing and it makes me sick! And it didn't only happen in the turn of that century, it happens today. Not just with black maids, but with any maids and most "service people". That's why my husband and I ALWAYS make it a point to thank the man behind the counter at the tire store with, "Thank you very much, sir". The person at the fast food window always gets a heart-felt "Thank you, ma'am" regardless of her age or her treatment of us. She may have had a horrible day. She has a suck job. If I can help her to feel respected for an instant, I will gladly do that. The waitress ALWAYS gets a huge tip from us and kind words of appreciation. I waited for years. I cleaned people's houses and took care of their children. My husband worked in a gas station. We know how it is. We have been there. We have been treated like # too.

Now, here comes the 'confusing' part. When I am presented with information as you have presented, I think, yes, I know. It's awful. And when you implore me to buy the book and read it, I'm confused as to why I would want to do that. I know how people are. I have lived it. I have seen the upper class treat people like scum. I have been the scum. I have NO argument or disagreement with the premise in the information you have presented. I know it happens and happens a lot.

Why do you want me to read this book?

I acknowledge that there is a difference in the way some white women treat black women AND the way the country (in general) looks at white women as compared to black women. I believe that a racial gap exists. I do everything I can in my own little world to change that.

Do you think I need more education about the subject?
If so, why?
What difference would it make if I read this book and piled up more examples in my head of people being asses to other people?

As regards the different issues women bring to the table:

I would bet that the issues brought to the table by you and I would be somewhat different. I don't doubt that for an instant. However, the issues brought to the table by a wealthy, white, Republican, Christian stay-at-home mother are going to be FAR different than the issues brought by either you OR I. Her concerns are going to make you and I look like we're in the same group. For one thing, race relations and equality are going to be in my basket.

Now, I'm not speaking for anyone but myself. I'm not denying, but acknowledging that racial differences and racism, both individual and institutional exist in large numbers and it's wrong and we all need to work to make it better.

I ask again: Why do you want me to read this book?
Is it going to clarify something for me? Convince me of something?

I'm left with a feeling of ... "What do you want from me"? and I know that didn't go over well the first time it was asked, but I'm hoping I have prefaced it enough that you'll know where I'm coming from. The first time you answered that question with "discussion". You want to discuss... racism? The fact that it exists? How prevalent it is?

You know, I feel like you think I don't know about this stuff. Do you assume that I don't know how horribly blacks have been treated? Do you think that my heart doesn't ache for the black man whose sense of manliness and "provider" and strength and father has been all but stripped from him historically? Do you think I don't have a clear picture in my mind of a black slave's back with bloody welts being whipped and opened yet again? Do you think I'm unaware of the shame, embarrassment and indignity that a black woman suffers when she has to work for a pittance and then be treated as though she's lower than the family dog?

I'm just not sure why I feel constantly in this thread that people are trying to convince me of something. Especially something I already believe.

people who work as servants are generally viewed as less than human beings. Inherent in the dynamic of the master-servant (or mistress-maid) relationship, said the philosopher Hegel, is the constant striving to annihilate the consciousness of the servant.

This sounds like the mistress is constantly thinking of ways to make the servant feel like less. I submit that (at least in some cases) the mistress is constantly acting in ways that attempt to resolve her own guilt at ordering around another human being. If the mistress convinces herself that the servant is truly "lower than" herself, she can alleviate her guilt at treating another human with such indignity. But yes, sadly, and wrongly, people in service positions are treated like crap. By MANY people. It's a class thing. And black people are usually in the lower class and white people are usually in the upper class. But their color doesn't make them who they are.

Probably viewing her servant as a mere extension of herself, the feminist could hardly be conscious of her own active role as an oppressor.

Exactly. She couldn't very well resolve her actions and still call herself a feminist. And she became very uncomfortable when it was presented in a way that she couldn't deny.

My children will be black, so I have the added worry of police brutality, and economic, social, and political disenfranchisement. And, when it comes to the wage gap between white women and black women, I'm very pissed.

I see this, and again, speaking for myself, these issues would also be in my basket. And I know I don't speak for all women, only for myself. But I also know that the wealthy, white, Republican, Christian stay-at-home mother may not have these issues in her basket. Most likely she won't.

Shouldn't she be reading the book? What good would it do for me to read the book when I don't even KNOW the people who could actually benefit from the knowledge and information within it? I don't have some sort of "white connection" or "in" in the white upper class - that I could expolit to approach these women with this information and open their eyes. I don't even know who they are and frankly, I don't want to know them. They are my adversaries as well as yours.

I understand your feelings, but when someone (I forget who) gave me a link to adversity.net, and I was as turned off as you are, I still made a point to respond to the concerns raised.

I did read it several times. And I did comment on it. I talked about it on a couple of long posts if I remember correctly. Did I not respond to the concerns raised? I recall I made a post specifically to you about my thoughts on the article. What did I leave out?

And by the way, I'm curious about the answer to the question I asked:
Why aren't there many black women involved in the feminist movement?

This is supposed to be a conversation amongst intellectuals.

It is? Although I like to think I'm intelligent, I don't consider myself an "intellectual", in that my emotions are many times more important to me than my intellect, especially when discussing something as 'emotional' as race relations. However, there is certainly room for intellectual conversation, but I don't think it should be limited to that. And I'm all for intellectual discussion.

For one thing, when it comes to the wage-gap, I see white women as bitching about nothing, or almost nothing. You're doing much better than the rest of us women, and most of the men.

Well, okay. I don't feel the same way and I'm not thrilled about being seen as "bitching about nothing" any more than you are thrilled about black people being seen as doing that.

I'm shooting for fairness. Among ALL of us. Male female, black and white. Just because the white woman makes better money than the black woman doesn't mean her complaints aren't valid. After all, this white woman doesn't see your complaints as invalid. In fact, your struggle for equality is the same as mine. From my feminist position, I want equality for all people, not just between white men and white women.

My longest post, ever, I believe! Sorry!