It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

page: 5
2
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 04:18 AM
link   

Originally quoted by cmdrkeenkid

Odd, though, that you're only singling out predominantly white countries for those who have to cross an ocean to get here, when there are more than a billion Asian people across the Pacific who would have to come the same way...


Was I singling out predominantly white countries? I thought I was talking about immigration in the 19th and 20th centuries. I'm sorry if I did.

Yes, you are right, however. Both whites and Asians have traveled by ship to get to America. So did Blacks, if you think about it. I just asked whether there was a difference in treatment legally between white immigrants and non-white ones during those eras, that's all.


Compare the amount of Mexican illegal immigrants to the amount of European illegal immigrants in the US... I bet there are a whole lot more from south of the border.

Also, please cite your sources that people have called specifically Mexican illegal immigrants as "filth, trash and vermin." Personally, I know I would call all illegal immigrants those adjectives.


Sadly, not everyone shares your equality in treating illegal immigrants in the same way. I'm sure by now, you've read Spawwwn's assessment of the illegal immigrant problem.

But to satisfy your question, here it is:

Page1

Page1

Page1



Then we can no longer use the following words, for the same reasons: Muderer, rapist, child pornographer, sex offender, drunk...


The last time I looked I thought we still had the freedom of speech. You can say it all you want. I'm just saying that "illegals" is perjorative and produces more prejudice. It does nothing to solve the illegal immigration problem. However, if you use this word, be prepared for some to think of you as racist. That's all.



I believe a wall should be built along the southern and northern borders of the nation, and thought that even before all of they hype about building one along the southern border. Basically, once we seal off the southern border, people will head up to Canada and come in through that border. If anything, we should block that border off first, then do the southern one.

As for the walls on the coasts? We already have one, but it needs major beefing up - The US Coast Guard. It needs a drastic increase in ships, helicopters, manpower, weapons, etc to become truely effective.


One of the major complaints of the anti-illegal immigrant proponents is that manpower isn't enough. So what you're proposing is throwing money at the problem.

Building walls on both coasts is exactly what anti-illegal immigrant supporters want. After all, you don't want everyone coming in, right?

Extend the wall-building plan to the East and West Coasts. Send the Coast Guard to guard the walls against the coastline. Don't you want to show those illegal immigrants from all walks of life you mean business?

It's not impossible. People will do whatever they put their mind to. And it sends a message, doesn't it? It'll just bring real estate prices down for the wealthy elite. No one will be able to enjoy the view anymore due to all that cement. But, it will get exactly what the anti-illegal immigration proponents want. But those poor surfers, though. They'll have to risk the authorities to catch that next, beautiful wave.

The Coast Guard will see their role like the National Guard: protecting the borders.


















[edit on 10-8-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 04:26 AM
link   
Jsobecky - How do you account for that? It's fairly simple, no child by the time it starts school will have avoided every racist remark. All that it takes is for one of the other children to make a remark and for another to laugh and for the other children to follow that trend.

You have no proof that racism is inbuilt. There is no evidence whatsoever and in fact, there's a lot of evidence that counters it. If racism was an inbuilt natural thing, then when the first meeting between the Tribal Americans and the Puritans happened there surely should have been some hostility? Surely they should have not helped them if it is natural to hate?

Racism is nothing more than the division of people due to their ethnic makeup. There is a historical precedent, that shows for hundreds of years people were able to barter, trade, etc, just fine but sub-divided into groups based on religion. It was only more recently - after the idea of Charles Darwin and another book published by a different man called the 5 Races that ever began to suggest things about differences based on skin colour. The fact there is hatred between people of the same skin colour and the fact skin colour changes if you've lived in a climate for long enough - would suggest there's no actual race but one. So for racism to be natural or something internal to people than races would have to exist or racism is a mental illness. [Reference: Wikipedia: Mental Illness - is a broad generic label for a category of illnesses that may include affective or emotional instability, behavioral dysregulation, and/or cognitive dysfunction or impairmen.]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 04:56 AM
link   
You also have to add, Odium that this difference in skin color has been deeply ingrained through the use of the media and the government. The government over the years have passed many race-based laws to discriminate against people who are different from the skin color of those in power. The media, through their portrayal of race, has aided and abetted this notion for a long time. As a result, these two institutions practice the very notions of privilege based on one skin color.

In this environment--and encouraged by adults around them--children continue to perpetuate exactly what their parents learned. As a result, if the adults in their lives do not correct the children regarding the stereotypes they perpetuate, you get the vicious cycle repeated over and over.

And when the children grow up and become part of politics and the media, then the same stereotypes continue without criticism. Societal privilege makes you blind to the plight of others different from yourself.

With all of these precedents in place, people are indoctrinated through visually seeing and actively participating in segregationist activities. They have participated in these subtly racist and discriminatory practices so long that they are seeing the forest for the trees. What is worse, is that these behaviors are hard to change because the media and the government advocated the privileged set was doing the right thing for a long time.

But when someone questions these notions and puts a different spin on racism, those from the privileged set immediately think the new ideas are racist because it jeopardizes that blanket protection from the goverment and media elite.

Then, those afforded societal privilege lash out against others who are trying to threaten their status. You can see this in terms of the anti-illegal immigration and affirmative action debate.

Privilege and recognition in society is a thing to fight for and prevent others from having--especially when you're a part of a race that has had it for more than two hundred years.






[edit on 10-8-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 06:48 AM
link   

Originally posted by Odium
Jsobecky - How do you account for that? It's fairly simple, no child by the time it starts school will have avoided every racist remark. All that it takes is for one of the other children to make a remark and for another to laugh and for the other children to follow that trend.

Odium - Surely you have heard racist remarks sometime in your life. Everybody has. Did that automatically turn us into racists?

No, it didn't. So I have to disagree with your assessment. Else we would have to say that we were all racists, everyone of us, just because we heard a racist comment in our lives.


You have no proof that racism is inbuilt. There is no evidence whatsoever and in fact, there's a lot of evidence that counters it. If racism was an inbuilt natural thing, then when the first meeting between the Tribal Americans and the Puritans happened there surely should have been some hostility? Surely they should have not helped them if it is natural to hate?

Looking at the larger problem, past the color of one's skin, there are countless more examples of people/groups reacting with hostility toward someone who is "different" than welcoming them with open arms. Biblical-era tomes actually mention groups that are unable to pronounce certain consonants correctly as a criteria for being "different".

So, once again, I have to disagree with your assessment.


Racism is nothing more than the division of people due to their ethnic makeup
.
For the sake of discussion, I'll accept that rather limited definition for now.


There is a historical precedent, that shows for hundreds of years people were able to barter, trade, etc, just fine but sub-divided into groups based on religion. It was only more recently - after the idea of Charles Darwin and another book published by a different man called the 5 Races that ever began to suggest things about differences based on skin colour.

So, everything was just fine until Darwin published his book? That was the birthdate of racism?

Edit: Fix BB code

[edit on 10-8-2006 by jsobecky]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 07:12 AM
link   
You really can't do anything really
. Face it you can probably change young people but you can't change an adults beliefs that easy. As long as hatred exists in one heart you can't destroy it.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 07:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by nextguyinline
I gave out my first WATS! I'm so excited

Thanks, nextguyinline! I'm flattered to receive your first WATS. I personally enjoy giving mine to those who earn them.


Originally posted by marg6043
Many times the dislike is unfounded and more as a reaction. The way the press plays immigrants protesting and what they voice causes a reaction on the rest of the population that are not happy with them to begin with.

marg, there are people who hate for absolutely no reason at all. And their hate does not stop at color of skin - it transcends every facet of their lives. There is absolutely nothing you can do about those people, except to avoid them.

As for the press, yes, I agree. They do play a part in raising the temperature of an issue. Some of that is driven by their quest for ratings, and ratings are highest when shock value is highest. But how much of is is deliberately done because of a racist MSM is debatable. Of course, they will always deny it.

How does it affect Joe Sixpack? Well, most people just shake their heads and pay the extra taxes needed to support the illegals. And that's all they do, because there are more important things on their mind - paying the mortgage, Mary's upcoming surgery, etc. But once something happens to adversely change their routine, then they look for an emotional outlet, out of frustration. That's when their training and influence from those they respect either stands up or fails them.

That is different from the haters I mentioned earlier. They will see a problem where there is none, or they will make a mountain out of a molehill. Those are just angry, bitter people looking to inflict pain on others. Once again, nothing you can do except to ignore them. Or shout louder than them, take your pick.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 07:33 AM
link   
Excellent work JSO. Everything well said ... as usual.

You have voted jsobecky for the Way Above Top Secret award.
You have one more vote left for this month.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 07:38 AM
link   
spinstopshere, it may seem that there are only "haters" in the world who "make a mountain out of a molehill", but there is always room for change. It is just that it will take time and committment to be more tolerant. It requires someone to be open-minded. They must also be able to speak up and fight against intolerance when they see it.

Lip service isn't good enough when dealing with the problem of racism. Actions are more important in terms of showing that you care about this problem in our society.

But some people are more committed than others when making this move to be more accepting of other people. And then, you get those who just play at the notion of tolerance to look good, but behind everyone's back display the same hatred that they are trying to quell. Those who do so are hypocrites who don't mean what they say. They secretly want things to get worse.

It has to do with character and conscience if you want to help bring forth a more tolerant society.






[edit on 10-8-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 08:08 AM
link   
Ceci the melting pot will happen evnetually as the years go by and society blends naturaly with different races.

It is happening right now, but you also see how different groups are opposed to that with remarks on how that is also destroying races integrity.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 08:27 AM
link   
Marg,

That is fair what you said. I am not against the Melting Pot theory, because eventually it will happen over time in a few generations or so. But what bothers me is its connection with the idea of assimilation.

However, we are dealing with divisions in society that need solutions that can start the healing and bring forth tolerance. That means lessening the frustration and anger that is going on right now because of current events. We have to find a solution that will work on easing the tension that often develops because of the frustration and anger.




[edit on 10-8-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 10:12 AM
link   


posted by ceci2006

" . . we are dealing with divisions in society that need solutions that can start the healing and bring forth tolerance. That means lessening the frustration and anger that is going on right now because of current events. We have to find a solution that will work on easing the tension that often develops because of the frustration and anger. [Edited by Don W]



You ask, Ceci, what can anyone do about race relations in the United States? The short answer is, “not much.”

Although America’s blacks are not the only group that has been discriminated against - the list is long - African Americans are the least deserving of and the longest objects to r-a-c-I-s-m! Delivered American style. It is true that every anti-bellum mansion in the Deep South that we so much admire today, especially in such cities as Savannah, and the richest city in America in 1860, Charleston, was built on the sweat and blood of black slaves.

Aside: After Germany made some modest awards to the survivors of Nazi slave labor camps, there is a movement here to get similar concessions from Japan due to 1000s of Americans forced to work in Japanese factories after the Fall of Corregidor until 1945. Prospects? From zero to none. That would not surprise a black person. That’s de rigueur for them.

IMO, many blacks - perhaps most - have given up on the race issue. They have made their peace, their accommodation to the American reality. Better to go along to get along. Why get heart-burn two ways when you are helpless to stop injustice? It requires a certain national ambience and a charismatic leader to make mental protests jell into personal action. We have neither today.

Betrayed by 1866 if not before, blacks were denied the promise they had universally anticipated. To become full participating citizens! Despite generations of genocidal race policies that passed for compassionate concern in the South and was ignored in the North, there had been a glimmer of hope just at the end of the War of the Rebellion (official name) or Civil War (popular name).

It seems to me now, looking back, all that many “Abolitionists” in America really wanted abolished was the institution of slavery. They found that morally reprehensible. Those same people seemed to care not a whit for the victims of that institution, the slaves. It’s sorta like today at a mega-church where they pray for the homeless and hungry while sitting on padded opera seats in air conditioned comfort, then drive home in their Lexus SUV. Is that an oxymoron? Hmm?

In 1876, for several reasons none of which were premeditated to bring harm to the 4-5 million Freedmen, the Republicans in the North ended what seemed to them to be futile efforts at Reconstruction. The Radical Republicans were losing elections to the emerging Democrats (from under a rock?) who were beginning to re-assert dominance in Southern politics.

Before this new black reality would be over, it would include 3,000 + lynchings - death by strangulation at the end of a rope - by mobs often made up in part by the local law enforcement personnel. Sadistically called a “rope dance” by the on-looking malefactors.

There were more than 15,000 beatings so severe the victims were never able to resumed a normal life. We do not know how many of those died because white coroners did not record "inconvenient" black deaths. Hmm?

And last, but by all means not the least, were the more than 50,000 burnouts. I’m referring to the period 1865 to 1954. Can you imagine a poor black family slowly and gradually accumulating small items, pictures, Bibles, store-bought goods, clothes, stoves, pots and pans, all the things that make a home, in the face of near total poverty, then to be forced to watch it all burned to the ground with everything you ever owned gone up in smoke! Often by a drunken gang of whites (a mob) out for a night’s entertainment!

It is little wonder blacks took comfort in religion . They had nothing left. Sadly, burning black churches was a popular sport for whites as late as 2005. And does anyone doubt it will not happen again? We live in that kind of atmosphere. It's in our culture. And our cultural leaders are talking about tax cuts, and foreign adventures, as America's major challenges. Hmm?

I’m sorry Ceci, to be gloomy. But everyone who wants to know how to end this abuse of a people already knows how. We have no respected national leaders with a vision worthy of the future. And there is no national will to do the right thing for its own sake. It is the contrary spirit that prevails. Maybe in the next century? God Bless.



[edit on 8/10/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 10:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by ceci2006
1)What can we do to address race-relations?


All we can do is address our own feelings and thoughts on it. We cannot force our views on others.



2)How can racism be solved?


I tend to think that it will never be completely 'solved'. Racism Is. As has been said, it's human nature to be suspicious of those who are different. And race is just one way that people are different.

I think the most we can do is to work on our own perceptions. Discuss it openly. Open our minds. Allow for diversity. And racist people are part of that diversity. There's no law against being racist. It's not what I choose for me, but some people aren't comfortable with other races, religions, lifestyles and so on.

You cannot MAKE people not be racist. There's no way. As jsobecky so eloquently stated, you cannot legislate feelings. The most we can do is legislate treatment. And that's being done.

And until all people of all races are ready to stop hating other people simply because of their color, the expectation of a world without racism is unrealistic.

I would venture to say that most people aren't racist. To seek out and try to change the few who are is a fool's quest in my opinion. Pushing them to be different than they are and calling them wrong for their views just solidifies their convictions.


Originally posted by ceci2006
And we kept it going for twenty pages without argument.


Au contraire! :shk: Perhaps you should read over it again...


Originally posted by jsobecky
As has been pointed out, you have the right to dislike anyone that you choose to. No reason needs to be given. So, any efforts to put that notion into law is doomed for failure, and can only cause resentment among those who are defined to be racist.


Freakin' bravo on your post! Another WATS!



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 10:59 AM
link   
Another point, disliking people is just an animal trait that keep us safe.

We have a natural instinct about who we like and who we don't and who we allowed to become part of our closes circle.

If we analyzes human behavior since the beginning of times we are going to find that people were keeping segregated for security and survival.

How can we change something like that in modern times?

We tolerance but can our human make over will allowed that to happen indiscriminately?

That is the problem



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 12:44 PM
link   

It seems people who are non-white always have to give up their culture and social practices to satisfy that of the dominant culture in order to assimilate. That is what makes non-whites more acceptable to the dominant culture. And those of the dominant culture do not understand how much non-white people have to give up to be accepted. It isn't easy. To have someone "seasoned" out of their culture to satisfy one race smacks of superiority disguised as "equality".

But I've seen that people of color who are willing to give up their own heritage and culture for the sake of the dominant culture are praised a lot more by whites. Dr. Rice is part and parcel of this.


I agree with this 100% in the context of white dominate culture; but I hope you understand that this is not a white trait, and it is absolutely reversed in non-white dominate cultures.

I don't believe that culture assimilation is powered by wanting or observing equality,
rather it's a natural, normal attempt to limit conflict and division. All this in the context of voluntary migration. I just accepted a job this morning(a very nice one
I might add
) If you will, that workplace(country) is going to have a 'culture' of its' own. I accepted the position so I can better my situation and have a level of success which I didn't get in my old position( old country ). If I don't assimilate to their culture and insist on doing things the way things were done at my old job, I run a risk of alienating myself and possibly losing the job altogether. Of course some
of the old things can and probably will add to the overall success to the workplace.

So I guess I'm saying that it's natural and self-preserving to assimilate oneself to
oneselfs' surroundings. To do otherwise is would be counterproductive. Also
remember the definition of assimilate is to absorb, not remove and replace.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 01:11 PM
link   

Originally posted by ceci2006
It seems people who are non-white always have to give up their culture and social practices to satisfy that of the dominant culture in order to assimilate.


Not that I agree or disagree with this, but what specifically are non-white people expected to give up to be accepted by the dominant culture?

I mean, I know people are expected to learn the language of this country if we're talking about immigrants, but they don't have to 'give up' speaking their language.

I'm curious, though. What are non-white people expected to give up? What cultural or social practices have you given up in order to assimilate?



That is what makes non-whites more acceptable to the dominant culture.


Speaking as one of the 'dominant culture', I disagree. I neither respect nor accept a non-white person because he 'gives something of himself up'. In fact, I would disrespect that. I respect or accept him because of who he is, not how willing he is to be like me. Yuck.



And those of the dominant culture do not understand how much non-white people have to give up to be accepted.


You're right. I don't understand. Tell me.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 02:17 PM
link   
So far, thank you everyone for your comments so far in discussing this important issue. I am grateful for your answers and ideas because it is compelling for all of us to work towards tolerance and understanding in the tones of seriousness, yet kindness. I hope that the next pages can be just as insightful in terms of finding solutions and learning more about what we can do to reach towards a more enlightened and open-minded society when it has to do with dealing with others.

Carry on!


Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

Au contraire! Perhaps you should read over it again...


BH, I don't need to because I am very proud of what went on there. We did have a long discussion without argument in which people contributed questions and got answers from others. We worked together cooperatively. I'm sorry that you overlooked that, but that's how I see it.

We did have a good thread with a lot of diverse voices who contributed to it. For the most part, it was a milestone because no one didn't really argue. And I found it amazing that we kept it up for a very long time. Although threads are not perfect, there are things that occur that causes things to be a little bumpy. But that's okay. Those things are to be expected.

I'm sorry that you felt that it wasn't successful. Thanks to your input though, I've sure learned a lot about how you view race and race relations. You provided very important ideas about how to deal with one another. And of course, here, you are still carrying on the same work with eternal vigilance. It is something to admire and to emulate.

I've especially learned to be more laissez faire about things now. That is one of the most important lessons I've learned from you. And I thank you very much.

P.S. What do you think non-whites have given up in order to assimilate? After all, they don't accept the ways of the dominant culture without losing parts of their culture in the process. After all, that is what the "seasoning" process is all about: forgetting the parts of heritage that matter the most.

People are always trying to give up parts of themselves in order to fully be accepted by others all the time--especially at jobs and in society.

Why do you think missionaries were so important?





[edit on 10-8-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 02:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by ceci2006
I'm sorry that you felt that it wasn't successful.


I didn't say it was unsuccessful. I said there was argument. PLEASE don't put words in my mouth. PLEASE. Thank you.


Originally posted by ceci2006
P.S. What do you think non-whites have given up in order to assimilate?


I don't know. That's why I asked you. I'm not non-white. I asked what you've given up because you said non-whites give up so much and we white people don't understand. I'm asking specifically what non-white people give up in order to 'be assimilated' to help me understand.



People are always trying to give up parts of themselves in order to fully be accepted by others all the time--especially at jobs and in society.


So, it really has nothing to do with race, then, right? It's human nature to want to be accepted. But only when a person feels self-assured and confident do they STOP trying to be accepted by everyone and just be who they are.



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 02:54 PM
link   


posted by Benevolent Heretic

I think it will never be completely 'solved'. Racism Is. It's human nature to be suspicious of those who are different. And race is just one way that people are different. You cannot MAKE people not be racist. There's no way. As jsobecky stated, you cannot legislate feelings. The most we can do is legislate treatment. And that's being done. [Edited by Don W]


Bussing under court order because of the unending refusal of white people to obey the law of the land and the executive branch being unwilling to make them, yet the same executive branch was entirely willing to continue funding schools in patent contravention of the law.

I fault war hero Dwight David Eisenhower for that. I’m sure CJ Warren warned Ike what was coming from the Supreme Court. A sea change in legal race relations. Rejecting out of hand the 1896 Plessey v. Ferguson case that legitimated Jim Crow! If Ike had been half as good at implementing the solution to America's greatest problem laid all wrapped on his doorstep, as he had been in handling Operation Overlord, America would be a much better and a far different place today. In that short falling he reminds me of U.S. Grant.

To his everlasting shame, Richard Nixon adapted the (barely) underlying race based animosity into his so-called “Southern Strategy” in which he “tickled” the thinly covered racism prevalent in unreconstructed white Southerners by shedding crocodile tears over the plight of “our children being forced to ride buses when they should be in school” and such crapola as that. OK, the sentence is too long.

We (whites) are not “unconscious” racists, Mr B/H. We know what we are doing.



I would say most people aren't racist. To seek out and try to change the few who are is a fool's quest in my opinion. Pushing them to be different than they are and calling them wrong for their views just solidifies their convictions.


Agree in part, B/H, disagree in part, about “most people.” If you had said “most people are not overt racists” I would have had no quarrel. I have heard it said hate is not the opposite of love, but rather, to be ignored is the opposite of love. I think “most people” are content to ignore this problem. Like I posted above, why give yourself a headache?

America’s racial sins are so great, afflict so many and are so deeply entrenched it will take what Germany did after WW2 when it went after 1000s of ex-Nazis, not because they gave a dam about what the Allies felt or wanted, but because they knew how easy it is for good people to be led into doing bad things. Ignoring the problem will not make it disappear, rather, it makes it fester. And a festered sore will erupt someday.

If I was 30 instead of 70, I’d be worried about the fact - it seems some even boast of it - that 25% of black males under 30 years of age have a prison experience under their belts. We are releasing 200,000 black men every year from our penal system back into society. You do the figures - in 10 years that is 2 million men who are peeved, if not worse. And in America the Beautiful, Land of the Free, Home of th Brave, the prison record despoils your future, ruins your life. You never get over it. An ex-con never stop paying. The MAN just won’t stop kicking! When you do get a chance to kick back, you do it, as in OJ Simpson's case. Or in the not so recent case in W-DC involving the mayor. Heck, I'd be a "nullifier" too, given the chance. You do what you can, when you can.



[edit on 8/10/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 03:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by donwhite
We (whites) are not “unconscious” racists, Mr B/H. We know what we are doing.


But to say "We whites" as if we all think with one mind and move with one purpose is, in itself, a race-orientated statement. I happen to believe that many who are racist (of any color) ARE unconscious about it. That's why I say examining our thoughts and ideas about race is the best way to improve race relations. To become more conscious of our own thoughts about race is the best way to face it and deal with it.

(And that's "Ms. BH"
)



I think “most people” are content to ignore this problem.


To further hone the statement, I'd agree that most racist people (a minority subset of people) are content to ignore it.




America’s racial sins are so great, afflict so many and are so deeply entrenched ...


I agree. But living today because of what happened in the past is what's keeping racism alive, in my opinion. Imagine if we could all wake up one day completely ignorant of these racial sins committed by people we don't even know. Imagine if we were totally ignorant of slavery. We wouldn't be carrying around all the crap that feeds the anger in racial situations and we could live today. Not with anger or guilt about what people did a long time ago.

Edited to add:


Originally posted by ceci2006
Why do you think missionaries were so important?


See nextguyinline's post on the next page. I agree 100%

[edit on 10-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Aug, 10 2006 @ 03:18 PM
link   
Thank you Ms. BH, well said indeed, living in the past will not make the future better.

I would give you a WATS but for some reason the damn thing isn’t working right.



new topics

top topics



 
2
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join