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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 10:17 PM
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galloping hordes,

I have a lot of respect for stay-at-home moms. They have a hard job, just as hard as anyone else. I always have and always will. And I am very sorry, if you or anyone else felt I was belittling their jobs. And that goes for stay at home dads, too.


However, I feel that in respect to dissenting to another poster's opinon of telling others "to get a job", I think that it is an unwarranted attack. There is an assumption that those who are asking for an official apology for the things that happened in the past do not have a job. And that is not true.

Here, I would like to point something out:

The people asking for restitution were belittled as well. You should also consider that in your fight for all human beings.

And I do not think it is fair for people to tell others who ask for "restitution" to "get a job" because that has nothing to do with it. In that way, the same stereotypical assumptions apply.

"Restitution" does has to do with acknowledging what has happened in the past and apologizing for it in a meaningful way. And it always doesn't mean that it has to do with money. I've mentioned before that not all the money in America could pay for what they've done to Black people. I've also mentioned that I feel the moment the government does decide to do it, it will be caught up in litigation.

It will never be done just because of the stereotypical attitudes applied to those asking for it.


I've asked this before and I'll say it again because it is worth noting:

What if an Ex-Nazi (or German who subscribed to the Nazi regime) told a Jewish person to "get a job" and "not one dime will go to you" for what they experienced in the Holocaust?

Think about it especially when there has been a lot of news stories about the wrongful appropriation of the possessions of Jewish families that still have not been given back.

Would you be offended by this questioning?

What if an Ex-Nazi (or German who subscribed to the Nazi regime) told a Jewish person they were being "delusional" and "lying" when trying to tell about their experience of the Holocaust?

Still here, would you be offended?

If you and others are offended by this questioning of a Jewish person, then you might see how offensive it is for one to tell a Black person bringing up "restitution" to get a job.



[edit on 18-9-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 07:38 AM
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Ceci, I totally agree with you on this one.

"Oh, there go dem lazy black folk always looking for a hand out."

It's just mean spirited and hateful. The only good thing about it is that it makes that person look ignorant.

I applaud you for coming on this board being honest about what we as black people see and hear. It is a hard thing to do especially when people don't want to face their own hidden prejudices. I tend to let these folk off the hook. They don't know any better and they don't want to know any better. They'll prolly die in their ignorance, and good for them.

It seems as though there is no empathy where black folk are concerned. If you have the whole "get a job" mentality maybe you could explain why you lack the compassion for black people, even though, you are capable of that kind of compassion for the Jews....(btw, before anyone questions my employment, i have job
it maybe surprising but many of us black folk do work).



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 08:36 AM
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Not me, I just sit on my stoop drinkin' 40s with my crew, hustlin' and drug dealin' to get by. Then I take my drug money and buy gold chains and grillz so people know I'm a muthaufckin' P-I-M-P. And you know it's true, just look at BET.

And this is where I lay the blame. No matter how much black people do, and how far we've come since being packed like tuna and treated like animals, the mainstream view has never fully progressed to a possative one.

Maybe it has to do with the nature of the media beast. Only focus on the bad, and scare the population into watching. Then distract them with bright flashy things and bad music to keep them dumb. Maybe I've got the media's take on black people all wrong, but I still am only seeing the blond blue eyed girls that go missing showing up on CNN, and no one with nappy roots.



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 08:42 AM
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Originally posted by Saphronia
It seems as though there is no empathy where black folk are concerned.


No empathy? Because one person says "get a job" that translates to no empathy for black people? That's part of the problem I have with grouping people. I'd wager that FlyersFan's words were addressed to Ceci, NOT because she's black. I do believe if FF saw anyone she considered to be hoping for a government handout, she would say the very same thing.

And yes, it's harsh and crass, but there's no lack of that sentiment in this and other threads, and it's not exclusively aimed at black people or at Ceci. She herself has expressed more than her share of vitriolic insults and hatred towards "white people" and some of us specifically, so it's not like she's the innocent black victim here...


Originally posted by Saphronia
I applaud you for coming on this board being honest about what we as black people see and hear.


I applaud her for that, too. In the beginning, in fact, Ceci and I had the same cause. Although I haven't experienced a black existence, equality is very important to me, a subject close to my heart. I considered her an ally. But her nastiness, anger and pure viciousness have turned many people against her. Many people. She has done more harm with her MEANS than good, by far. I had such hope when she started the first race thread. But her inability to remain civil EVER, ruined her chances of making a positive impact with her cause on this board.

She has a rep and SHE defined it. Over and over again. She continues to lash out and people continue to lash back. Not because she's black. I invite you to see who throws the first stone in every one of her threads...

And our snipes at her have nothing to do with whether or not we have empathy for black people. There is no correlation. They have nothing to do with her being black, and I'm sorry if they hurt more because of her experience of being black. But Ceci is MORE than a black person! She is mean, young, tenacious, angry, intelligent and focused, and she cuts like a knife!

The response to her isn't because she's black, although some insults might be formulated to specifically target a black person. Hers target white people. She sets the stage in every one of her threads and people respond in kind.

Being black does not give a person Carte Blanche to lash out at people and then act like the resultant consequences are because people have no empathy for black people. Come on! Yeah, the "get a job" comment probably hurt more than another insult might have because she's black, and it was probably designed to do so, but the Miss Scarlett, Lyncher, etc. insults from Ceci hurt just the same, specifically because I'm white and they were was designed to do so.

Some of us have empathy for all people, black people included. Some of us don't. But a harsh comment like "get a job" does NOT equate to there being "no empathy where black folk are concerned". That's just not fair to say, in my humble opinion. This is not about race. This is about human interaction. This is about being civil and honorable and showing one's self as being worthy of respect, not as a race, but as a human being



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Actually, I just said I had the DSM-IV among other books on the desk next to my computer. Plus, a dictionary that is officially endorsed by the APA. I did question whether others had access to the same information. Also, in regards to my first comment about the DSM-IV, I said that I consulted it along with the APA dictionary.

I have access to the DSM-IV and practically every other reference manual that has ever been published.

www.psychiatryonline.com...

I have a computer.



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
And this is where I lay the blame. No matter how much black people do, and how far we've come since being packed like tuna and treated like animals, the mainstream view has never fully progressed to a possative one.

Maybe it has to do with the nature of the media beast. Only focus on the bad, and scare the population into watching. Then distract them with bright flashy things and bad music to keep them dumb. Maybe I've got the media's take on black people all wrong, but I still am only seeing the blond blue eyed girls that go missing showing up on CNN, and no one with nappy roots.

Some of the "music" being put out by blacks doesn't help, either. I've heard the music defended as being a realistic look at black life. So how does that affect the perceptions of blacks?

Negative stereotypes are plentiful in black leadership. As well as white leadership. When these people's actions are defended as being justified because of events that occurred years ago, it only serves to reinforce the stereotypes.



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 09:36 AM
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The topic of this thread was, and sometimes actually is, Addressing race relations and solving racism.

But only sometimes...

Addressing race relations would be aided greatly if people would put away the anger. Anger, no matter how justified by past events, is counterproductive; and generally helps defeat the purpose most, if not all, of us espouse herein, equality of all regardless of race, religion, et al., not only before the law, but in life in general.

Ceci.

For the longest time I was on your side, and to a certain degree I still am. Your cause is just, and your heart certainly in the right place...no one, least of all I, dispute that. Your means, however, have become suspect. Seemingly, to the outside observer, unwarrented attacks upon members who's only crime seemingly is disagreeing with you, have become, again seemingly, your favored method of operation. When in doubt attack.

You have become known, not for your cause, but for the nastiness of your means. Your cause has become almost lost in the smoke and debris of your means.

Anger is warrented...I'll never deny that. But letting the anger become the ruling emotion when you encounter differing opinion won't help your cause. You are intelligent, tenatious, and erudite. All positive attributes to my mind, your rage, as I said no matter how warrented is not.

When you post a nasty, and angry responce, its only human nature to return the volley. It's a cycle of behaviour that you must change.

It may seem that I'm singling you out, and to be honest I am. This is your cause and you are trying to shape and correct a percieved wrong. It's up to you, not me or the others here, to attempt to keep a clear vision of what you are saying. Anger only clouds the issue, and brings personalities into it.



Hopefully I've not burned a bridge here...but I felt it neccessary to express my thoughts on the direction this topic has taken.



[edit on 18-9-2006 by seagull]



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 09:48 AM
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Whatever bitterness that has been going on between you folks has nothing to do with me and I regret its happening because it only makes for a lot of wasted time wading through this thread. I have respect for all opinions whether I agree or disagree. Please believe if I disagree with you I will do it politely and within the rules of the T&C, I always have and I always will. With that said, personally, I feel that Ceci is getting the bad end of the stick because what has been seen as unprovoked hostility, I see a difference of opinion that some can't tolerate. Some of the comments on this thread in particular are harsh and uncalled and definately offensive. And, I won't be participating in any of that.

My question is a real one, though. I have noticed there is a huge difference between what is tolerated from black folk and what is tolerated from Jews. To me there is no empathy from some white americans when it comes to black people and maybe it is the media image of poor blacks as beggars. But, I'm sorry, I don't hear anyone telling the Jews that collected their checks and apologies to "get over it" or "get a job". There is no "get over it" if you are black in this country...there just isn't, though, I also object to holding the past over this countries head. I want to know why--prettier words can't be used to address reparations and apologies for the treatment of black people in this country. "Get a job" is the best you got to give when we are talking about the complete subjugation of a race of Americans for decade upon decade? We are talking about Jim Crow to COINTELPRO and the best you have to offer is "get a job".

Why is the answer always "get a job" as if my grandfather never worked, even though, when he got home from the war he wasn't even allowed to drink at the same fountain as white people. When the US government enacted laws that totally and completely striped him of his rights as a equal human being. (He won't see a dime--but he paid plently). BH, you use the idea of equal human beings now as if the idea of a human beings' equality was never in question. Some say get over it now, as if my mother didn't have to march to get equality. As if her school wasn't picketed--as if I wasn't forced bussed out of my neighborhood because there was still inequality in education when she grew up and sent her kids off to school. Get over it, as if there wasn't a mass exodus of white people from my school and this wasn't 1880--this was 1980. I have some ill memories from of my 1st grade teacher the kind I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy--if I had one.

I'm sorry BH, I have to disagree with you, there is no empathy in the treatment of black folk on this issue. We are told to "get over it". We are told we want a hand out. We've been told to get a job, as if the sole reason for reparations has nothing to do with the crimes against humanity perpetrated by the USG creating the conditions that many black folk find themselves in today...not slaves but us. We are playing the "race card", again. Where is the empathy in that?

Shoot...I just want to know why the idea is so repulsive that it draws such a grimy reaction. I'll have to do some research but did the Japanese go through this during their reparations? And, do those that object to reparations/apology for black people also object to the reparations and apologies given to Japanese Americans? I wish my grandparents and parents could get an apology and some empathy from the get a job crowd. I'd be fine with that.



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Some of the "music" being put out by blacks doesn't help, either. I've heard the music defended as being a realistic look at black life. So how does that affect the perceptions of blacks?


There is plenty of good, realistic, non-MTV-BET music being put out by black artists, but you'll never see it on TV because it empowers the black community, and I don't think that would do well for corperate america.

For example, you would never hear anything like this on BET/MTV


You can't fool all the people all of the time
But if you fool the right ones, then the rest will fall behind
Tell me who's got control of your mind? your world view?
Is it the news or the movie you're taking your girl to? (uh)
Know what i'm sayin cause Uncle Sam got a plan
If you examine what they tellin us then you will understand
What they plantin in the seeds of the next generation
Feeding our children miseducation


And there are dozens, hundreds, even thousands of artists with a real view of the world. The problem is that recording companies make more money by keeping people in the dark. And by doing so, they continue the stereotypes that stop people from seeing each other as equals. How can you take a man seriously if he's got diamond studded teeth?



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by Saphronia
My question is a real one, though. I have noticed there is a huge difference between what is tolerated from black folk and what is tolerated from Jews.


I agree with you. In general, what is 'tolerated' from blacks is much less than what is 'tolerated' from Jews in this country. We were trying to talk about this a few pages back and although I don't fully understand the reason, my guesses are here:

politics.abovetopsecret.com...



To me there is no empathy from some white americans when it comes to black people ...


True. From SOME white Americans. And it's probably always going to be that way. There are always going to be people who have no sympathy or understanding for certain other people.

- There are people who have no patience for Jews.
- There are people who have no patience for Homosexuals.
- There are people who have no patience for fat people.
- There are people who have no patience for Blacks.
- There are people who have no patience for Muslims.
- There are people who have no patience for white people.

And even though "get a job" or "get over it" might not be the phrase used to demean all of these groups, there are specific insults that are addressed to each one.

Jews have the holocaust deniers.
Homosexuals have the conservative right claiming a "homosexual agenda".
Muslims - Just about everybody's jumped on the "terrorist" bandwagon these days.
There is no group of people who are loved and admired by everyone.



"Get a job" is the best you got to give when we are talking about the complete subjugation of a race of Americans for decade upon decade? We are talking about Jim Crow to COINTELPRO and the best you have to offer is "get a job".


Just so you know, I do not support the "get a job" mentality for black people. If there's ANY confusion about that, just let me make that crystal clear. I would only say that if I were SO mad that I felt I had to strike out and shut someone up or hurt someone's feelings. But I DO NOT feel that way. I was explaining why someone might strike out with that phrase to Ceci.




BH, you use the idea of equal human beings now as if the idea of a human beings' equality was never in question.


In my mind, it isn't in question. Not since 2nd grade. But I do understand and believe that equal treatment has never been achieved. People ARE equal. They are not treated equally and the treatment of blacks in the past AND TODAY is abhorrent. So no, that's not how I use the idea of equal human beings.



I'm sorry BH, I have to disagree with you, there is no empathy in the treatment of black folk on this issue. We are told to "get over it".


I know that some people treat black people that way. And I cannot and do not make excuses for those who do. My point was that many people are empathetic. Many aren't. But to say that empathy doesn't exist (as in "there is no empathy where black folk are concerned") because some people say "get a job" simply isn't true. There's not enough empathy, I agree, but there never will be 100% empathy for blacks or Jews or Muslims or Homosexuals, et al.



Shoot...I just want to know why the idea is so repulsive that it draws such a grimy reaction.


That's a very good question. I don't know if the Japanese went through this. I wasn't around or socially aware. But I have made an attempt to explain why I am not eager to pay reparations or apologize. Here's more...

Bear with me...

About Apologies

For me, to apologize means I have done something wrong, whether it's on purpose (I'm sorry I was mean to you) or accidently (I'm sorry I stepped on your toe). And THAT'S what I feel that reparations and the apology that's wanted of me are about. I feel like an apology is being demanded of me. That I am expected to feel personal remorse and responsibility. I feel that I am expected to feel shame, sorrow and accountability for something I didn't do. I feel like black people who want this apology are mad at ME.

Another kind of apology is the kind when someone dies, I say, "Oh, I'm so sorry"! Now, THAT kind of apology I freely offer to black people. I haven't experienced being black but I have seen some of what you go through on a daily basis, not to mention what has happened to your people in the past and I can say with full heart-felt integrity that I am SO SORRY! I have cried about your pain! I have seen it and I feel terrible that people go through such inhumanity! I AM SO SORRY!


You see, I cannot even force myself to feel responsible for slavery or racism because I don't practice it and I'm very much against it. And for me to take the responsibility being thrust upon me simply because I share a skin pigment with the real guilty parties is, in itself, racism. And people can treat me with racism, but I do not accept it. I will not be lumped in with users and murders and bigots and racists simply because of the color of my skin.

And when an apology is demanded of me, I'm hesitant to give it because I feel that you (generic black you) want me to admit guilt. And I can't.

Should I, Saphronia?



I wish my grandparents and parents could get an apology and some empathy from the get a job crowd. I'd be fine with that.


I wish in my heart of hearts that your grandparents and parents could have something to repay them for what they've suffered, for the inhumanity with which some people treat others. But that is probably never going to happen. People in the "get a job" camp are by definition not going to feel empathy. If they were, they wouldn't be in that camp.

But please remember that all white people do not belong to that crowd. I know you know that. And I can't speak for FF, but if she hadn't been consistently attacked, I doubt very seriously that she would have used that particular insult. She used it because it works. And she would have used it against any person of any color that she determined was asking for a handout. Yes, some people are against reparations and some will say "get a job", but to expect empathy from them is a losing proposition.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, SAPH, for joining this thread. I have already discovered some new things about myself. And that's always good. Lovin' you!



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 12:17 PM
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BH has brought up a point that I share.

"Sorry" is one of those words with multiple meanings, and sometimes the truly appropriate meaning can be blurry.

The kind of feeling sorry that BH and I and possibly others object to having demanded from us is the kind expressed by the word penitence.


sorrow for sins or faults


Merriam-Webster on Penitence

The kind of sorry that many here do feel regarding the deplorable treatment of black people in the US is more akin to "sad":


affected with or expressive of grief or unhappiness


Merriam-Webster on Sad

BH and I and most others here have never owned slaves, clearly, and we work to expunge the racism we were raised with from our lives. We are sad about the way blacks were and are treated in the US, we are just not penitent about it.



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally quoted by jsobecky

I have access to the DSM-IV and practically every other reference manual that has ever been published.


Good for you. It only demonstrates that you are too cheap to fork out money the buy the real thing. I've bought it, hardbound. That also means, I have a job. Which nullifies FF's argument entirely about "getting a job" when asking for reparations or "restitution".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Otherwise, I thank you Saphronia and Rasobasi for coming to the plate today. I've enjoyed your comments today. Keep on contributing your thoughts on this important issue. I will chime in later when I have more time.


But I just have this to say to my detractors:

For BH and my "vitriolic verbal assaults": they would have never happened if I was not attacked first. And since I was, I took the gloves off and fought. I'm sorry, BH, you're a nice person, but you can't even play the victim in this. You've got to own up to the fact that you've also said some things to me that were hurtful. Especially when you insulted my parents and said that you "combatted racism before I was born".

Do you see the offensiveness of those two statements? I've asked you before, but I never get an answer.

And no, my dear BH, I was civil once--on my first thread "regarding race as a taboo subject". But some people got bored and started to attack me for having "controlling" behavior. Then, I was told, that I "wouldn't know what side you would stand on". And then, it grew to, "that I have an inherent racism and anger against whites". And then it grew to "I am frustrated discussing race with you". And now, it grows to "I have a vitriolic mood".

Do you see how you have equated "behavior" to "race" ? The conversation, had you stayed on it, would have been just fine if you and others did not attack my character. But you did. And I came back and defended myself.

I wonder what you'd do if there were three or more posters systematically calling you on every thread "an Anti-White" bigot, "a racist" or "uneducated". I wonder if you'd get sick of it too?

You might develop a sense of frustration that your ideas were not coming across as well as you liked.

Yet, here again, you play the victim and try to make yourself as innocent as possible on your part. But that's okay. You are the "flower of tolerance" here. And like I said before, people will take your side of it, even when you paint these things wrongfully as a fantasy and an illusion.

Imagine what it is like when you have to defend yourself because not even those in charge do not understand your side of the story and often come out against you. They penalize you for the nasty things that happen to you, while the person who does the "nasty attack" often gets of "Scot free" without feeling any recourse or guilt about it. In fact, they get defended and patted on the back for it every time.

Imagine how that feels when your behavior gets analyzed over and over while the angry, nasty and ignorant comments keep on coming and a rapid pace from not only the usual suspects, but different people all the time.

Multiply that hundreds of times over. And that's why a lot of Black people get so frustrated in this country over this issue. That's why I said before that perhaps we have a right to be angry. Our anger at the system is legitimized by all the ignorant behavior.





[edit on 18-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 18 2006 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Do you see the offensiveness of those two statements? I've asked you before, but I never get an answer.




Especially when you insulted my parents


The original "insult":
www.abovetopsecret.com...


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I invite you to deny the lies told to you by your parents, just as I denied the lies told to me by mine about black people.


Ceci, I swear I did not mean this as an insult. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that everyone got some of their views from their parents. I know I did. I apologized to you and you accepted my apology.

Tell me, why is this so offensive to you? I really want to understand. Please tell me why this continues to bother you so... I do not see the offensiveness. Please explain it to me.



and said that you "combatted racism before I was born".


This statement is based on the assumption (again, have I assumed incorrectly?) that you are about half my age. I'm not sure of this, but in my mind's eye, I picture you as a young woman. Please, if I am wrong, let me know. I do not see the offensiveness in this statement, either.

Please explain why you find this offensive.

If you explain it to me, then I will understand.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 01:28 AM
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BH,

I thought all day how to explain to you how I felt about the matter. I apologize that I took this long. But, I will do the best I can to make you see why these two phrases (among others) were offensive.

But I wanted to say this about your previous comments trying to cover for your behavior and the actions of others towards me:

Yes, it is because my color. If it weren't, no one would have said the things they did. I have to agree with HH on the part that sometimes racism is unconscious. And none of you might be consciously aware that you did these things, you did them because it was expected as the thing to do to "quiet" any person of color who acts out of line.

And then, if it weren't, you or the others would not go out of your way to treat the other posters of color better than myself. I know you'd balk at that, but think about this closely.

Now, that might be mean to say, but monitor your behavior as you treat other posters. Do you finger wag at a "self-identified" white poster in the same manner as you do a "self-identified" poster of color? No, you don't. But you would not identify it as such. Because when you admit this to others, telling a black person about his/her behavior would be consciously wrong. But unconsciously, it might be because that old "Jim Crow ettiquette" is working its old magic and you are doing what white people in the past have done time and eternity to other blacks to "police" their behavior.

That is what Carl Jung meant when he said groups (and societies) all share a "unconsciousness" of societal myths, behaviors and social practices. White people, as a group, might have in their "unconscious" the myth of "Jim Crow ettiquette", because the elites (or the dominant culture) in society have not demonstrated another way to act around people of color.

Muse upon this and wonder about it. Explore it. Dissect it. Take it as a thought, but not as an analysis.

Think about the $50 on the ground analogy that HH explained about in a previous post of hers. The right thing to do would return the $50 to the person who dropped it. But, since everyone has different intentions when seeing the $50 on the ground, this action might not be the case.

And now, I go on to your comments:



Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

Ceci, I swear I did not mean this as an insult. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that everyone got some of their views from their parents. I know I did. I apologized to you and you accepted my apology.


Yes, I still accept your apology. And for the most part that is true that our parents teach us a lot of things. But part of the insult was that you would assume that my parents would stereotypically teach my sister and myself to hate or be resentful to white people. Of all the things they've taught us, they've never done that. Now, they've told us to be very vigilant to the way we were treated. They taught us to treat others and demand respect for ourselves. But never did they gear any of their teachings in the offense of white people.

As a result, that was the first part of the offense. That you had the gall to assume the worst about my parents. Even if I didn't know what you told me about yours, I would never say such a thing. In fact, I wouldn't (and have not in all my posts) mention your parentage at all. Not even in my sarcastic remarks. That I owe to the good manners my parents did teach me.


Tell me, why is this so offensive to you? I really want to understand. Please tell me why this continues to bother you so... I do not see the offensiveness. Please explain it to me.


1)You attacked someone's parents. No matter how you think about your own parents, if someone said anything negative about them, wouldn't you be offended?

2)You do not know what my parents have done except what I have written here. I have yet to mention anything negative about them, but you assume the worst.

3)You went with the stereotype that all Black parents do is ingrain in their kids to "hate and be resentful" of white people. You could not think that Black parents could teach anything else to their kids except for that. That is why I also felt insulted.

4)And for all this talk about people "defending" another's parents, not one spoke up to tell you that your words might be bordering on offensiveness. Not a one.



This statement is based on the assumption (again, have I assumed incorrectly?) that you are about half my age. I'm not sure of this, but in my mind's eye, I picture you as a young woman. Please, if I am wrong, let me know. I do not see the offensiveness in this statement, either.


Yes, I am about half your age. But the offensiveness was not that.

1)Your words "infantalized" me. It was as if you were the adult and I was child by your words. That is hardly the way to prove that you treat anyone with equality--especially if they were adults.

2)You assumed that just because you fought racism longer than I have that you knew more about it than I. That may be the case, but it is offensive to say that because we have two different views regarding race, your perceptions are better than mine.

3)It showed that only your opinions have weight. No one else could ever propose a different way of thinking about race because "you've fought it before I was born". The rest of our ideas are rubbish compared to yours. It sounded quite arrogant to me. I'm sorry, but it did.

4)You've said that you find others arrogant if they "teach you" something. Yet, you regressed on your word of equality by doing the "finger-wagging" bit. It's arrogant for others to teach you something, but it isn't arrogant for you to do it to others. To me, that's a very hypocritical stance.

5)Although you might not think this, you practiced what a lot of whites do to blacks when "marching in on their colonialist thinking and telling them to fix things". You marched right in and presented your credentials telling me that my manner of thinking was wrong and that your way was the only one to approach the problem of race. That is offensive not only to me, but a lot of other Blacks that might have some good ways to approach this problem. Because you and others continue to "put us in our place", I don't think you ever considered that other members of colors might see what you are doing and refuse to answer because you pretty much have all the answers.

If white folks would take a step back and listen, even to the most disturbing aspects of racism and race-relations, I think a lot more could be accomplished. If they could actually talk about the problem and not go for the attacks on character, behavior, parentage as well as the "tone", a lot more could be done. And if you stopped perpetuating the stereotype that a Black person, when he/she speaks his/her mind is "mean", "violent" or having "bad behavior", a lot of things could be discussed by focusing on the issues.

What happened in this thread is not my fault. I did not respond to others until they attacked me in a hurtful way. That includes you. And still, the posts continue to come in telling me about my behavior. At first, they were hurtful. But now, I just laugh at them because it means that no one has anything truly to add to the subject matter.

Saph is right. By focusing on me, it only shows ignorance and a refusal to engage the subject matter as it is. It also proves that white folks might have a problem with the more troubling aspects of race. This is what several of my sources (who were white, btw) have said. It also lets me know that no one has actually paid attention to what these sources are trying to say.

Just think what we could have done in the time wasted talking about me. We could have used that time to brainstorm a lot of possibilities instead of focusing on my attitudes.

Instead of telling me what's wrong with my behavior, you could have worked on understanding the issue a lot more.

But, you went there. And since you did, I fought back because there was not any action to stop the ridicule and the anger vented towards me. I had to protect myself. And when I protect myself, I do it any way I know how.

And if I didn't, I would have rolled over and let all of you beat up on me again.

But the most offensive thing to me is the fact that you would defend what FF was saying but not see the obscenity of her behavior and the lack of empathy behind what she said. It's funny how you as well as the others do not see the bad behavior amongst yourselves. But you can sure see it in Black people and tell them about it. Do you ever realize that? Even a little bit?

However, I think part of the problem is that the notion of "uppitiness" is still there. No one likes a Black person who is confident and can defend themselves against hostility. There will be always folks to teach that Black person a "lesson" they will never forget. And some posters have tried, believe me. More or less, it is subconscious that people hate Blacks who are "uppity". If people admitted this, a whole lot would be explained.

But even with all this, I would like to bury the hatchet and be kinder to you. I apologize for what I've said and done in the past in the most heartfelt way.

I know that you would not make this move either in u2u or on the thread. Even now, I think you are a wonderful person. And I keep on telling that to everyone despite our falling out. But, it is up to you to make things right between us so that the fighting will end and we can work together in trying to build a bridge regarding our beliefs instead of resorting to arguing all the time. We could even explore that middle ground of what we believe in to make progress in this thread.

For that, the ball is in your court.





[edit on 19-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 03:52 AM
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I pulled up a few articles that might explore this issue so we can separate the wheat from chaff when dissecting this subject matter in future discussion.

The first excerpt comes from columnist Mary Mitchell from the Chicago Sun Times. She explores why Blacks might carry anger toward the police:


Arrest of elite cops shows why blacks don't trust police

This reality -- crystal clear to most black people -- is often treated like fantasy by a lot of white Chicagoans. But increasingly, black people who are either stuck in impoverished neighborhoods or have fled far from them often express views that make it seem that every black youth who is picked up by the police has done something criminal.

Just check out my blog entry regarding the police shooting at Cabrini-Green last month in which a 14-year-old boy was shot multiple times for allegedly pointing a fake gun at a police officer.

Few whites expressed any understanding of why black people were so angry, and why blacks didn't believe the incident unfolded just as police said it had.



Roger Wilkins explores the dichotomy that Blacks and Whites seem to have towards America. It is a very interesting article to read if you have the time. Especially pay attention to first paragraph. It explains why the notion of "American Culture" can be deemed offensive (in my opinion):


Racism Has Its Privileges

Blacks and whites experience America very differently. Though we often inhabit the same space, we operate in very disparate psychic spheres. Whites have an easy sense of ownership of the country; they feel they are entitled to receive all that is best in it. Many of them believe that their country(though it may have some faults)is superior to all others and that, as Americans, they are superior as well. Many of them think of this as a white country and some of them even experience it that way.They think of it as a land of opportunity‹a good place with a lot of good people in it. Some suspect (others know) that the presence of blacks messes everything up.

To blacks there's nothing very easy about life in America, and any sense of ownership comes hard because we encounter so much resistance in making our way through the ordinary occurrences of life. And I'm not even talking here about overt acts of discrimination but simply about the way whites intrude on and disturb our psychic space without even thinking about it.

A telling example of this was given to me by a black college student in Oklahoma. He said whites give him looks that say: "What are you doing here? "
"When do they give you that look?" I asked.
"Every time I walk in a door," he replied.
When he said that, every black person in the room nodded and smiled in a way that indicated recognition based on thousands of such moments in their own lives.

For most blacks, America is either a land of denied opportunity or one in which the opportunities are still grudgingly extended and extremely limited. For some -- that one-third who are mired in poverty, many of them isolated in dangerous ghettos -- America is a land of desperadoes and desperation. In places where whites see a lot of idealism, blacks see, at best, idealism mixed heavily with hypocrisy. Blacks accept America's greatness, but are unable to ignore ugly warts that many whites seem to need not to see.


Stephen Best and Douglas Kellner write about the expression of rap music. Some of the things that they discuss in their article kind of sit on the fence with me, but their opening paragraph also demonstrates why the Hip/Hop and rap culture is important in "giving a voice to the voiceless". This was written in 1999:


Rap, Black Rage, and Racial Difference

Rap music has emerged as one of the most distinctive and controversial music genres of the past decade. A significant part of hip hop culture, [1] rap articulates the experiences and conditions of African-Americans living in a spectrum of marginalized situations ranging from racial stereotyping and stigmatizing to struggle for survival in violent ghetto conditions. In this cultural context, rap provides a voice to the voiceless, a form of protest to the oppressed, and a mode of alternative cultural style and identity to the marginalized. Rap is thus not only music to dance and party to, but a potent form of cultural identity. It has become a powerful vehicle for cultural political expression, serving as the "CNN of black people" (Chuck D), or upping the high-tech ante, as their "satellite communication system" (Heavy D). It is an informational medium to tune into, one that describes the rage of African-Americans facing growing oppression, declining opportunities for advancement, changing moods on the streets, and everyday life as a matter of sheer survival. In turn, it has become a cultural virus, circulating its images, sounds, and attitude throughout the culture and body politic.






[edit on 19-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 08:13 AM
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from ceci
I've asked this before and I'll say it again because it is worth noting:

What if an Ex-Nazi (or German who subscribed to the Nazi regime) told a Jewish person to "get a job" and "not one dime will go to you" for what they experienced in the Holocaust?

So now we're being compared to Nazis.

Originally quoted by jsobecky

I have access to the DSM-IV and practically every other reference manual that has ever been published.



Good for you. It only demonstrates that you are too cheap to fork out money the buy the real thing.

Another unwarranted personal insult.

For BH and my "vitriolic verbal assaults": they would have never happened if I was not attacked first. And since I was, I took the gloves off and fought. I'm sorry, BH, you're a nice person, but you can't even play the victim in this. You've got to own up to the fact that you've also said some things to me that were hurtful. Especially when you insulted my parents and said that you "combatted racism before I was born".

Do you see the offensiveness of those two statements? I've asked you before, but I never get an answer.

You started this crap way back in the first couple of pages. And BH has done everything but kiss your feet explaining and asking for forgiveness. You keep holding on to it because it is the one thin string (in your mind) that allows you to continue to insult her. You'll play it until the cows come home.

I wonder what you'd do if there were three or more posters systematically calling you on every thread "an Anti-White" bigot, "a racist" or "uneducated". I wonder if you'd get sick of it too?

Did you conveniently forget that you called them STDs, cancer, lynchers, Miss Scarlett, and Nazis? Do you think that maybe they get "sick of it" too?

You might develop a sense of frustration that your ideas were not coming across as well as you liked.

Yes, and she'd probably try her best to think of a better way to explain herself. And if that failed, she'd probably begin to question her own thinking and attitudes.

Yet, here again, you play the victim and try to make yourself as innocent as possible on your part. But that's okay. You are the "flower of tolerance" here. And like I said before, people will take your side of it, even when you paint these things wrongfully as a fantasy and an illusion.

She didn't get her bar broken for calling people Nazis, that's for sure. Maybe you should look inward instead of outward.


Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

Ceci, I swear I did not mean this as an insult. I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that everyone got some of their views from their parents. I know I did. I apologized to you and you accepted my apology.


from ceci
1)You attacked someone's parents.
:
:

Blah blah blah. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. But as I stated, it is the thin string of guilt that you use as a leash and a whip on BH.

I had to protect myself. And when I protect myself, I do it any way I know how.

You only know one way to respond. You're not "confident" or able to "defend youself against" anything. You equate rudeness with confidence. And when others react to your puerile insults, you accuse them of being racist.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 08:43 AM
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Ceci, thank you for explaining why you took offense to my words. Let me reiterate that I meant no offense to your parents at all.

I didn’t intend any of the meaning you added to the words I spoke. It’s too bad you attached so much significance to them. The connotations you added made them seem quite a bit bigger and more insulting than was my original intent.

Parents:

I find it interesting that after the alleged “insult” toward your parentage on page 10:

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

…you didn’t mention it. You didn’t indicate it was an insult or that you had been offended. Not in the following post. Not on that page or the following page, or the next page… This supposed insult was on page 10 and it wasn’t until page 13 (with many of your posts in the interim) that you said:


Originally posted by ceci2006
I feel insulted by the fact you said my parents taught me to be resentful and hateful of white people.


Which I did NOT say. You ADDED that meaning to my original words. You were offended, not by what I said, but by your own misinterpretation of my words.

Then you continued:



But at the same time, my mother and father are not blind to what happens to black folk in society. They survived segregation and the civil rights era. They underwent some of the harshest treatment in the South


Ceci - If you didn’t pick up any resentment of white people from your parents, then it’s an amazing thing, but I’ll refrain from that judgment because I do not know them or you, for that matter.

Children, many times do pick up from their parents conscious or unconscious thoughts, ideas, opinions about life and their dealings in life. Since your parents did in fact deal with prejudice, segregation and were treated harshly by white people, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility to think that they may have had some negative thoughts about white people and that you may have picked some of them up. That’s ALL I was saying. I was asking you to release the negative assumptions and context that you (probably) picked up from them. Now, you say you didn’t. Fine. I apologized. You said you accepted it. But since you’re still obviously upset by it, I have my doubts about that. But that’s ok. I left it behind long ago.

Before you were born…

Let’s look at this phrase in context.


Originally posted by ceci2006
I think that you are still taking an apathetic stance toward this issue.


After 20 some pages on another race thread and about 10 pages on this one, with my FULL participation hashing out racial issues, you insisted I was taking an apathetic stance. It certainly is your right to think that I’m apathetic and to tell me so. However, I wanted to let you know that I wasn’t apathetic. In fact, that I had been fighting racism for many years. So I said:


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't care what you think about my being apathetic. You are wrong. You assume way too much about me. I was fighting the racism fight before you were born.


There was no intent to "infantilize” you. It wasn’t about you at all, in fact. It was about me. You had called me apathetic many times and I wanted to give you a real life example, something that you could relate to, of my LACK of apathy in this area by telling you that before you were even born, I had been fighting racism.

Again, you added a host of meaning to the innocent statement: That I knew more about racism than you, that your ideas were “rubbish” compared to mine, that I was putting you in your place… ALL of that, you added yourself to a simple statement of fact.

There was NEVER an intent to diminish your knowledge or your fight. Ceci, I don't know nearly as much about racial history as you do and I have praised you for your objective here. It's just an incontrovertible fact that I have been fighting racism for a long time so therefore I am not apathetic. It was a response to the charge of apathy not an attack on you.

Again, the connotations you added made it all seem quite a bit bigger and more insulting than it actually was. I really hope you can see this for what it is.

Ceci, when people say something to you, many times, you take offense when it isn’t intended. And you have a habit of deciding what people mean, even if they didn’t say it. You add meaning and import to people’s words and then repeat them as if they actually said them. Many times this is the basis of your whole argument. Therefore, many times, your whole argument is based on something that never happened. That is the case here with both of these supposed “insults”. Hang on to them if you must, but just know that the meaning YOU gave to them is much more sinister than my intent.

Here’s yet another example.


Originally posted by ceci2006
You've said that you find others arrogant if they "teach you" something.


No. I didn’t. Here’s what I actually said:


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't hold back my point of view. That's pretty clear. If people learn from something I say, fine, but I don't go about trying to teach people things. That's the quickest way to turn someone off. I'm not going to think that I have something to teach people or an education to impart. That's totally arrogant, in my opinion and turns me away faster than anything.


So, I’m going to leave this whole segment of our discussion behind me. I have explained myself to the very best of my ability and you insist on being offended at just about everything I’ve said. I cannot change that. I have explained this so many times and you don’t believe me. So, I really don’t see any reason to explain it yet again.

Take my words, do what you will with them, add whatever meaning you like and make them into insults. I can’t stop you from doing that.

I don't intend to address the past between us publicly again. I have said that I'm not innocent in what has taken place between us here, and I fully own and acknowledge that I have sometimes been biting and harsh. But the two instances that you have represented here were not intended as insults to you or to your parents.

I do fully intend to continue discussing the original subject of this thread.



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 09:05 AM
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I think we should change the title of this thread to "Ceci, More About Ceci, and a Whole Lot of He Said She Said For Good Measure". Seems the original topic has been completely lost. Maybe we should search around and see if we can't find it again. Must be 'round here somewhere.






[edit on 2006-9-19 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 09:20 AM
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Well, yeah, it (the thread) seems to get going along pretty well... You know people talking about the subect and really making some good progress (I'm learning, anyway) and then it gets tripped up with personal crap.

I'd love to hear more from those who care to discuss the topic.


I was really enjoying the stuff about apologies to blacks and reparations, why Jews are more 'tolerated' than blacks and the inconsistencies between lawful equality and practical equality and respect. I would dearly LOVE to talk about these things!


But the muck of personal issues keeps clogging up the thread. Can we make an agreement to STOP discussing personal differences?

Please?

Anyone have a new question or answer to contemplate or talk about?

Is this thread over? Can this thread be saved???
What about the children!



posted on Sep, 19 2006 @ 09:56 AM
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Jsobecky,

What people of color find racist is all about perception. So, maybe your intent isn't to be racist, but it was racist to the person (Ceci) that read it. She reacted to it, but she also goes a long way to explain to you guys why it is racist. Maybe it would help matters if you actually took note of what she finds offensive in your comments. Everyone is so intent on "defending themselves". Sheesh! Sometimes it is best to back up and take notice because she isn't the only black person that reacts badly to some of your positions. It isn't up to me or her for that matter to decide what you believe, but if I am offended and she is offended and HH is offended---maybe it is time for you to examine what causes the offense. The same goes for FF, in this case. Maybe this won't help at all, but I felt the need to say something after reading what you decided to post to her. If these are the things you believe at least stand up and accept the reactions you are getting to them. You can't tell me what is racist just like I can't tell you that you are a racist. I never would say that, but some of the things you have said in the past leaves a bitter thought in the back of my mind as well. Yeah, it is completely up to me how I react to it--but if you truly reject racism you should want to know why you are getting that reaction. Either way, you have my attention.

BH and OMS, I never put you guys in the "get over it" camp. And, I'd feel really bad if you thought what I am seeking is guilt on the part of today's white man. I really would like a "get over it" person to explain the disgust that the thought of reparations to black people brings upon them. I think that goes to the heart and heat of our issues of race in this country. Even though I don't want a check from the uncle sam it bothers me that so many are so indignant. A crime was committed not just upon slaves but to my grandparents and my parents (not so much me) and we know the laws are liable. It seems the honest thing to do. I've paid my share of taxes as do all black folks that have income. They weren't exempt when we were considered second class citizens and we are not exempt now. It bothers me some people here think that it is just a matter of money when actually it is a matter of right vs. wrong.

A personal apology isn't what many black folk are seeking--we don't want you to feel personally sorry. But, there is this lack of compassion in some of the comments that just aren't present when we are talking about the crimes against humanity done to the jews during the holocaust or done to the Japanese americans during WWII. I wonder why this is the way it seems to me just as much as I wonder why the thought of reparations bothers them. (sorry, I can't think of a better way to put it).

Peace.

[edit on 19-9-2006 by Saphronia]



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