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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 03:13 PM

Originally posted by jsobecky
I mean, if someone said that they live by the Golden Rule, I wouldn't automatically think they need to learn more about racism.

True. Neither would I. This was one of the problems I have with these quotes. And taking any one and saying that if someone says that, they need to learn more about racism is not necessarily true. But I think that's what the author was trying to say or imply and my point was that if someone thinks they know all about racism, and makes these statements in the context of racism, they might not be as knowledgeable as they think.

Does that make sense?

No, not the same, because that's factually incorrect.

The flat Earth quote is not exactly the same, no. I was in a hurry!

I don't think anyone needs to have attended school to not be racist. They might not know everything there is to know about racism, but so what?

You said that much clearer than I did, but that's EXACTLY what I meant!

That's the difference between "scholarly research" and "critical thinking skills". The latter is usually gained long after the books of academia have been closed.

Interestingly, one of the questions on the test I posted asked about what contributed to my views (I forget the exact wording) and my answer was logical thinking (again, not the exact wording). But yeah, critical and logical thinking come into play around my views of other races. It's not logical that someone with a different color skin is any different than me. Same for someone from a totally different part of the earth. Skin color, culture, nationality, gender... these are not what define people and their inherent worth.

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 03:26 PM
I'm interjecting in here but where is the conspiracy aspect? The conspiracy I see here is that the NEW world order and globalists have decided that multiculturalism and massive immigration is the rule of the day and many people have no say in this topic. To just fine tune the status quo is in fact aiding the conspiracy if you ask me. I say we question the very idea first and then learn the merits thereof if any.

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 04:49 PM

Originally posted by ceci2006It is part of the cognitive dissonance that has been happening. I posted articles exploring that concept. One of which was, "Jim Crow Ettiquette". I happen to believe that it is still happening as late as this day and age.

You raise a very interesting and significant question, here.

While we can legislate equality, what we can't do is stuff that law into the minds and hearts of everyone it affects. We have two very nice people living next door to us (who are of our generation) but sometimes their views of people who are poor, of other races, or not Protestant) are just a bit disconcerting to Liberal Feminist me.

It also brings up the REVERSE question -- if you've been discouraged and locked out of opportunity (happened to me), how can you be brought to recognize when those fields have changed and opportunities have opened?

If you have been kept down by society attitudes, by the time that social rules change, you may be too old. By the time they let non-whites move into gated communities, a non-white may have been stuck in so many lower paying jobs that they can't afford the desirable places to live (or eat, etc.)

While these attitudes SHOULDN'T exist in law, I certainly know a few (including my own father) who have that "Jim Crow" mentality. In my dad's case, his attitudes have changed to become more tolerant, but he's hardly as egalitarian as my children and husband and I. And I wouldn't doubt for a moment that there are laws on the books (municipal, etc) that favor one race over the other.

A *VERY* shameful example of this kind of law was the action of the US Senate in 1852, when they secretly refused to ratify treaties involving American Indians of California... and bured those documents in secret archives:

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 05:31 PM
Byrd, no, you cannot legislate feelings. But, you have to be able to recognize what has happened before and currently in order to work with them and try to change those circumstances.

For myself, I fully recognize that things have changed. My father and myself have had may conversations about how hard it was for him during the Jim Crow/Civil Rights era. And he tells me that basically, being the "second generation" beneficiary of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, that I should try and reach for the stars.

But at the same time, my father and myself agree that some things have not changed. There are always people who will be upset when you point out they are wrong. And they expect you to be the "shuffling", "okey doke" Black person of the past. Those types want you to be docile and meek. They do not want you to be confrontational. Because if you were, you were showing violent, delusional or bellicose tendencies. They also think that you are slapping the good intentions of the 1964 Civil Rights Act in the face.

So, yes, I believe "Jim Crow Ettiquette" is still alive. And it is causing the cognitive dissonance that happens when different races discuss race.

That is why the treatment, language and the re-framing of the questions have to change. I am glad that we are having this conversation. Believe me. This conversation could not be discussed forty-two years ago for risk of retribution. But now, while we have the opportunity, we should take all information that we have learned and evolve from it.

Especially, when recognizing that we all have to learn more about racism--not only by talking about it, but also reading and exploring it without the fear of "fixation" or "persecution".

Language is one of the most important aspects of exploring the issues of race-relations and race. I feel as Saph does on many counts. HH, myself and others have been talking until we are blue in the face and still we have to repeat ourselves over and over. It is frustrating and tiring. But because I still do maintain the ideal that people can learn and grow from these experiences and can take them out into the real world to treat at least one person with dignity, I continue.

That is the most important thing. We need to treat each other with dignity and just proceed.

And if my post about what people have said in the past concerning racism causes some to question their own words in this light, then slowly the discussion is changing. And perhaps "Jim Crow Ettiquette" won't be needed in the next conversation about race.


However, I still put a shout-out for especially other persons of color to speak. I do not want Native Americans, Asians or Latinos to be left out of the conversation. I hope that their insights might also break down the cognitive dissonance that is happening here. Maybe someone from those representative groups might have other insights to share.

So, come on Latino, Asian, and Native American folk. Join in and make your voices heard!!!!


Btw, I thank you and Saph for sharing your two cents. I thank you both for contributing to this very compelling matter. I am grateful and humbled by your words.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by ceci2006]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:28 PM

Originally posted by Byrd
While we can legislate equality, what we can't do is stuff that law into the minds and hearts of everyone it affects.

We've been saying essentially the same thing since the first couple pages of this thread. It also brings up the question whether you have the right, or duty, to try to change someone's mind. Those questions have also been asked and answered.

Don't get me wrong - it may be desirable for everyone to have attitudes that do not promote racism. But it is not illegal. As long as someone is not harming another, then it is something we have to live with.

Regardless of what you hear about people expecting non-whites to be docile or subservient, it simply has not happened in this thread. And there is a dissonance here which equates confrontation and standing up for oneself with being rude and hostile.

It also brings up the REVERSE question -- if you've been discouraged and locked out of opportunity (happened to me), how can you be brought to recognize when those fields have changed and opportunities have opened?

By taking advantage of them. Test the waters, see if the laws that have been passed to prohibit discrimination really do work. At the same time, do not expect a law to change the way people think, a point that I brought up very early in this thread.

Another thing that is necessary is that you must expect to be disappointed occassionally. For example, there are many here (myself included) who question the value of an apology, and who refuse to accept responsibility for something they did not do, and who are against reparations. That does not make them bad people, or deserving of vicious name-calling. That is just what makes each of us different. People need to accept that.

Racism is important enough to some to be at the top of their list of priorities, and to occupy every thought, interaction, and decision they make. It is not that important to others. To me, being honest, responsible, and considerate are far more important, because they describe character and not a cause.

Just my .02

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:34 PM

You have voted jsobecky for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

There has to be, in every successful debate, the voice of reason. Some one person to step up, regardless of the issue, and simply point out inconsistency, personal agenda and just plain BS.

jsobecy, I believe that you have fill that role here.

You have managed to stay out of the attacks that have come from BOTH sides and the obvious baiting and innuendos. Makes me proud to know you!!!


[edit on 9/17/2006 by semperfortis]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:38 PM
Hi Saphronia!
I'm so glad you checked in!
I have just finished your post and it brought tears to my eyes. I'll address a few of your comments below.

Originally posted by Saphronia
Black people have some views that people of other races just can't understand because they don't have the true life experience.

This is so true. I have experiences that only those who went through a similar experience could POSSIBLY understand. I have brought them up in this thread. I can't possibly understand racism or experience the depth of impact that racism has had on blacks. I can listen, I can imagine, but there's no way I will ever KNOW.

The fact that others cannot understand doesn't mean they don't want to, though. And I also had a period of life where I hated men. All men. So I hear you.

We (meaning black folk) have to come to terms with the past in ways that white folk, quite simply, don't.

Again, I am in 100% agreement. We don't because we (white people) weren't victims of racism, we (white people) were the perpetrators. There is nothing to come to terms with. We didn't feel the pain. We (white people of today) cannot relate or identify with what our people did in the past simply because it was insane! It's wrong. It's terrible. I can't take on feelings of responsibility for what they did any more than innocent Joe Blow can take on responsibility the rape of a 5-year old girl. He can't and he shouldn't. It would drive him insane. And it would drive me insane to take on the responsibility of slavery and racism.

While for some, studying race relations in america maybe considered a passing "interest", for black folk, it's a necessessity especially if you want to have some success and prosperity.

I'm beginning to understand this. And I agree it's probably really important for many black people. I can relate it to women's studies. If a woman wants to be successful in the business world of today, she'll do a lot better if she studies the past, present and future of women's place in the business world.

I don't think that is fair for her to demand this, and I see why it makes many uncomfortable but just think of that uncomfortable feeling it gives you and multiply it by a life time, then you would have some realization of what black folk feel ...

Yes, no matter how much Ceci wants me to fully 'get it', I'm never going to be able to understand that side of the coin. It's not a failing in either of us, but the expectation for everyone, black and white, to fully 'get it' is, I think, asking a little much. And I believe that might be part of the 'pull' I felt. And why I asked what she wanted. It felt like something was expected of me, something more than discussion, and it's something I don't have within myself to give.

I feel like I've come full circle.

It may not matter to you, but I feel like you have, too.
And although I don't know exactly what that means to you, I know what it means to me to come full circle from my experiences of the past.

I love everything about this country. I love that we were strong enough to take a wound like slavery and try to heal it...and AMERICANS BE PROUD OF THAT! Be proud of how far we have come black and white folk together.

That is where I got tears...
Very cool.

If the question put to me as a black person would I like to answer would be it is enough that we just proceed.

Believe it or not, I think I understand this. I relate it to the feminist movement. It's not enough that we take the next step. It's not enough that we proceed and somewhere down the line, in the fullness of time, probably after I'm long in my grave, we will finally reach true equal treatment of men and women. That's not good enough for me!

And it's not good enough for me either that black people have to play the same step-by-step waiting game. It's not good enough by a long shot. But it's what we've got.

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:41 PM

Originally posted by jsobecky
there are many here (myself included) who question the value of an apology, and who refuse to accept responsibility for something they did not do, and who are against reparations.

Yep. Include me in on that. Absolutely. And I am also against calling a money hand out 'reparations'. The term 'reparations' is just loaded language and a fallacy. It is an inaccurate term as well.

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:42 PM
I tend to disagree about not having the assumptions of being "violent", "delusional" and "hostile". If one thinks back to the beginning of the thread, there were accusations of some of the posts being "aggressive" and "having an axe to grind".

And others have accused, "about the tone".

And then, others have played "armchair psychologist" and tried to place behaviorial or mood disorders on those who dissented.

So, there is a perception of "non-whites" being "docile" and "meek". Or else, there would not be the attacks that have happened throughout this thread--especially when it ties to "victimology".

Saph is right on this account. It has to do with experience and the familiarity of one's use of language with interpreting the behavior of others. And some are not aware of the things they do or say. They can only police others and root out the behavior of others instead. That is called lack of understanding and unbridled belief of stereotypical behavior.


And about "reparations", let us call it "restitution" for deferred payment, unjust treatment and neglect by the government and the people who subscribed (and continue to subscribe) to institutional racism.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by ceci2006]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 06:52 PM

Originally posted by ceci2006
"armchair psychologist" and tried to place behaviorial or mood disorders on those who dissented.

I'm not an armchair psychologist. I'm a degreed psychology major. And ANYONE who displays the type of behavior previously discussed on this thread is P/A disorder suspect. It has nothing to do with color or dissent. It has to do with behavior.

"restitution" ... unjust treatment and neglect by the government ...

Self responsibility. Get a job. Earn a living. I don't owe you a dime.

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 07:47 PM
You are unethical in your field due to the behavior concerning the use of your abilities recklessly to malign, subjugate and intimidate others, especially people of color.

No one here is your client. And no one deserves to be subjected to your analysis. You do not have the right to analyze anyone outside of a professional or clinical setting. This is not a mental institution, hospital or any other health-related, social welfare or public policy-related entity. You do not have a case history and really are working with little information to make a proper diagnosis.

And if you have a license, it deserves to be removed.

If you do, that opens up a suit for malpractice as well as defamation of character.

And if you are degreed, it does not mean you practice. And there are always reasons why.

And I suggest, you stop telling people to get a job around here. You don't really know about any of us.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by ceci2006]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:02 PM

Playing with the DSM-IV ?? New toy, eh? Just found out about it three days ago and look at ya' go.

Heres a clue ... I didn't psychoanalyze ya. Long distance psychoanalysis can't be done. I said (and others said) that your behavior is in line with P/A disorder. And you can't sue a person for malpractice when they aren't a practicing psychologist. (and I never said that I was).

And if you are degreed, it does not mean you practice. And there are always reasons why.

Yeah, because I'm a stay at home mom.

Here's another clue ... picking up a DSM-IV and reading it for three days doesn't qualify YOU to make any psychological analysis' on people (which you have tried to do on previous pages). Glass houses Ceci. Glass houses.

defamation of character

Glass houses.

that opens up a suit for malpractice

Only if I were wrong. Which I'm not.

ON TOPIC - there are hundreds upon hundreds of forums out there that discuss race and race relations. Just google 'race relations forums'. Hundreds upon hundreds pop up. For anyone who thinks that race and/or race relations is being ignored in the world ... just use google. It isn't.

I won't be back unless I'm attacked .. either directly or through a P/A style hit and run. This subject isn't going anywhere. I have a life ... this thread isn't it. For anyone who wishes to remain and talk .. have a great chat. Hope you enjoy it.

[edit on 9/17/2006 by FlyersFan]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:05 PM
It is not psychoanalysis. That is not the form of practice that you were using on me. And that proves that simply because one is degreed, does not mean they know there all that needs to be known about your discipline. And yes, you are very wrong.

And no, I'm not playing with the DSM-IV. Furthermore, I don't need you to justify what I do or do not know.

I'm glad you do not practice. In fact, I'm elated.

In fact, since you are a stay-at home mom, I suggest you stop telling others to get a job. You don't have one in your field. So stop playing "armchair psychologist" and living vicariously through others who actually do practice.

[edit on 18-9-2006 by ceci2006]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:06 PM

Originally posted by ceci2006
I'm not playing with the DSM-IV. I know it.

You never heard of it until three days ago. You don't 'know it'.
You said so yourself on previous posts. (or did you forget???)

Originally posted by ceci2006
And I know that there are quite a few personality disorders that you have

Oh .. after reading the DSM-IV for three days you are now a shrink, eh? Aren't you the one who just two posts ago said it was UNETHICAL to psychoanalyze people long distance? Yep. Hypocrite.

since your are a stay-at home mom, I suggest you stop telling others to get a job. You don't have one

OOOOOOH how cute. Stay at home moms don't have a job. Yeah, right.

If you really want me to go away Ceci then you'll just have to stop the personal insults and lies ...

Oh what the heck... They'll never stop flowing from you. I'll just leave anyways.
Bu-bye Ceci.

[edit on 9/17/2006 by FlyersFan]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:09 PM

We are all people here, all members and ALL HUMAN!!

Can we not discuss something without all this petty back and forth????


Can we all just act like adults!!!!!


posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:09 PM
Actually, I just said I had the DSM-IV among other books on the desk next to my computer. Plus, a dictionary that is officially endorsed by the APA. I did question whether others had access to the same information. Also, in regards to my first comment about the DSM-IV, I said that I consulted it along with the APA dictionary.

People who practice and those who know the discipline of the field consult these two sources all the time.

But that will let you know, I always check for accuracy.

However, after thinking about it, I don't need to justify what I know or don't to you. I am sick of it. It is none of your business what type of education I have, or what I have done. In fact, I don't care what you think about me in terms being familiar with the DSM-IV.

Unfortunately, I'm not the one playing "shrink" here. You are. You were called out for your behavior. The only thing you can do is to turn to taunting and harrassment.

Now, please do go away so we can have a productive conversation. We don't need any more of your intimidation here.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by ceci2006]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:19 PM
Now, Semper, we will have a honest and forthright discussion about race-relations and racism. Hopefully, we can deal with these issues without any more interruptions.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by ceci2006]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 08:50 PM

I am not forcing anyone to "get it". That is not what I am trying to do. I hope that is clear. All I want us to do is to understand what is at stake here. I keep on mentioning that this is not a trial. And I am sick of people feeling as if they are on hostage here.

However, I know that you understand these issues. And what Saph said made a lot of sense in the long run. It goes to show you that not all of us think alike and have different perceptions of how racism and race-relations have affected us.

If people do not understand that little bit of knowledge, we have a long way to go.

I am just trying to say is that all of us have to learn a little more to comprehend each other in regards to race-relations and racism.

I know I'm not perfect in that regard. I have a lot of things I still don't understand. But, I don't need to be persecuted for what I do know.

And the reason why I am "tough-minded" is that I am sick and tired of the attacks. Believe me, I would really want others to discuss this politely. But what I've realized is that no one wants to treat this subject in a polite manner. Manners are the last thing that is afforded here.

So, the only thing left is to discuss this issue with the gloves off. Nothing more can be done unless people start to treat the issue and all view points with respect. I am willing to do this if people pay me the same properly.

[edit on 17-9-2006 by ceci2006]

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 09:09 PM
BH I tried the test it was interesting. I might go back and try it again just to see if the results change or whatever. Thanks for providing that link.

posted on Sep, 17 2006 @ 10:06 PM
Ceci you said something on an earlier post which given the fact that you and Flyers Fan were battling it out with each other I wasn't going to respond to. However, upon reflection I must comment; you said words to the effect that a stay at home parent wasn't a real job now mind I'm paraphrasing; I must strongly disagree with that statement. A stay at home parent be it either one is a full time job that isn't accorded the respect it is due. I realize I digress from the intended topic but there is a parallel; respect should be accorded as it is earned to all based on that person actions and behaviors. I hope that the words you typed were in anger and not what you believed for that would seem to be to belittle stay at home moms and dad irregardless of skin color thereby negating the work you are trying to do which I believe is equal treatment to all irregardles of race, creed or national origin. I realize that you will undoubtly treat this post as a personnal attack though it isn't intended as such but more as a request for clarification.

As an aside I wish I could have been a stay at home mom.

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