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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:14 PM
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Unfortunately, your experience does not speak for everyone, my dear. You can try and pretty it up as much as you like.

But I rather get to the gristle of the turkey myself.

Well, all I can say is that if we're both racists on this board, FlyersFan, you're a brown-nosing, opportunistic one.

I can say that I've probably upset everyone with my comments. So, I'm not an Archie Bunker loveable bigot that spews these things and still gets patted on the back. And definitely, I am not a brown-nosing one because I have virtually inflamed every poster with my comments.

So which racist is better? You or I? Let's be honest here. You've thrown around who's racist all the time on this board. It gets so old that no one notices. And you lie your pants off to hide it. Can you truly say you don't judge people to respect of color? Or do you only judge Blacks?

That is why I say you are a brown-nosing, opportunistic one who doesn't like to stick her neck out. And hell, if you are so ashamed of your racism, stop pussyfooting and tell the truth.

Say you dislike Black folks and be done with it. You've said as much. You have admitted you like Latinos on the board, so they have nothing to worry about. It should be easy for you to say whether you hate Blacks or not.

Stop this dance and just state the plain facts. Then we know where you truly stand and can work from there. It's time to be honest and stop this lying and brown-nosing.

It's time to show some guts instead of your whining. Make the record clear.


Now try to post my edits and re-edit them with your lies.




[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:22 PM
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Oh for crying out loud! If this thread is going to devolve into screech-land again, I'm going to take my ball and go home...



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:26 PM
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Well, she called me a racist. And I called her one. I asked her where her stand was on Black people. She does not have a good track record on this board when it comes to discussing them no matter how many times she discusses her daughter.

I, for one, would like to know how deeply she hates Black people. I'm sure there are other posters of color on this board who have confronted her in the past who would like to know the same information.

It should be an easy answer for her. I've already said that I didn't hate White people no matter what others have said about me.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
HH - Perhaps some people have this mindset, but I don't. And I really feel negated when Ceci writes this and you agree so happily. If you don't think white people know how it feels to be the object of racism, think about how it feels for me to hear this.

That quote makes me sick. It's applying a mindset to white people and it sucks. It's not true.

First of all, I did not "agree so happily." Do you think this makes me happy? What about this situation could possibly make me happy? The fact that I'm forced to engage in a 400 year fight for respect, the fact that I'm spending so much time doing it...? What?

"Good" and "bad" blacks are divisions that were originally made during slavery. The terms persist because we still have a need for them in our language. Just because you, BH, don't use them, it doesn't mean that other people don't.

Listen closely the next time you hear a white person talk about Condi. You'll hear the inference that she's a "good one."

Here are some links:
Black Like Them:"Through the lens of his own family's experience, the author explores why West Indians and American blacks are perceived differently."

The GOP's 'Good' Blacks: from 2001, this article shows how the GOP planned to use the good-bad divide to their advantage.

The reason you had to actually invent the terms 'good/bad whites' is because those terms don't exist in the larger American dialect. Why? Because it was white people who divided blacks into good and bad.

I'm sorry that you're disturbed, really, but this isn't our doing. These words and ideas existed way before Ceci and I came to ATS.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
And it is very true that there is a Bad Black/Good Black standard--


Sure it exists. Only a small percentage of people feel that way, though. And I haven't seen it in this thread. And what OMS says is true. This is not a "black thing" it's a class thing.



Which Blacks do you like better?


I don't separate people into "good blacks" and "bad blacks". Sorry. That's sickening. I like and respect people for the qualities I listed before. Skin color was not on the list. I like it when people stand up for what they believe in. I admire that. But if they have to step all over other people to do it, if they have to resort to back-biting and name-calling, dishonesty... they don't deserve my respect, regardless of color.



And do your Black friends respect you enough to bring these issues of deepness up to you. Or do you scare them off with your high-mindedness? Do you truly scare the crap out of them?


Yes, I think they do respect me enough, but perhaps you know them better than I do, seeing as how you're both black and all...
I have had some deep discussions, none so vitriolic as this one... and again, that has nothing to do with skin color. I may scare some people, I don't know. I am who I am and if they get scared, oh, well. I have never scared the crap out of anyone, that I know of. I think I would know...

What highly wierd questions!



Originally posted by ceci2006
Well, out of the both us, FlyersFan, you are the bigger racist here.


Is that what this thread's about??? Who's the bigger racist??? Will there be a vote?
Can we just vote and get on with the subject? Pretty please?


Originally posted by ceci2006
But you use Black people all the time to prove you aren't racist. You use their color, their speech, their music and their history to say so.


Their speech? Their music? Their history???


Hey, OMS, wanna play ball with me?



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:34 PM
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There you go again, laughing it off.


I wouldn't have expected any less. No small wonder the Black people in your circle will not talk to you about these "deep issues".

Yes, I think the questions would be weird to you. And you have retaliated by "playing dumb" about them.

I think they were said in a straight-forward way.

But you answered them the best way you knew how.



[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
What was it that moved him so much on his pilgrimage that he changed his position and even denounced his earlier anti-white rhetoric?? This is big. It is key.


Why do you keep asking the same question?




posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Listen closely the next time you hear a white person talk about Condi. You'll hear the inference that she's a "good one."


White people like me?
You've heard me talk about Condi. Do you think I judge her as a "good one"? I'm a white person. And to separate me out and say "well, maybe you feel one way, but most white people feel the other way so I'll just go ahead and say "white people" and exclude you..." doesn't cut it.

One white person I know loves Condi and he's a Republican.



The reason you had to actually invent the terms 'good/bad whites' is because those terms don't exist in the larger American dialect. Why? Because it was white people who divided blacks into good and bad.


I didn't invent those terms, I just don't PERPETUATE the myth by using them!

Good Whites and Bad Whites



I'm sorry that you're disturbed, really, but this isn't our doing. These words and ideas existed way before Ceci and I came to ATS.


And I don't blame you for their origin, but I do blame you for perpetuating them. I had never heard the terms, much less used them before this very day and I'm pretty enraged that you think bringing up something from the past this way is a great way to get to the meat of the matter.

What is the meat? That white people categorize blacks as good and bad? BS. I've been white for nearly 50 years and I've never heard of such a thing.

If you're angry about history, then talk about history, but lamenting and bringing up the past as viable today is NOT a way to resolve racism in my opinion.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:57 PM
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Well, heck, BH, there's a lot that you don't know, do you? It's all right to be "clueless" now. Admit you don't know it and read HH's links. But don't "play dumb" about it.


And let's not bring up what you perpetuate, while we're at it.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
White people like me?
You've heard me talk about Condi. Do you think I judge her as a "good one"? I'm a white person. And to separate me out and say "well, maybe you feel one way, but most white people feel the other way so I'll just go ahead and say "white people" and exclude you..." doesn't cut it.

Okay, fine, BH. The majority, a lot, plupart... whatever. I really feel bad that I may have offended you, but are you disagreeing with the actual point?



Good Whites and Bad Whites

This article mentioned nothing about good whites vs bad ones. What was your point?



And I don't blame you for their origin, but I do blame you for perpetuating them.

BH, that's ridiculous. I say "Go Ceci" for bringing the topic into this discussion, and I'm perpetuating it? Um...ok...I'm not even sure what to say in response to such an illogical train of thought.



I had never heard the terms, much less used them before this very day

Do you consider yourself so well-educated that you know every single thing in the whole world?



and I'm pretty enraged that you think bringing up something from the past this way is a great way to get to the meat of the matter.

What are you not getting? This is not relegated to the past. Did you read either of my links?

Save your rage for those who make the division and then exploit it. We're just talking about it. This is a discussion forum, right?



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Okay, fine, BH. The majority, a lot, plupart... whatever. I really feel bad that I may have offended you, but are you disagreeing with the actual point?


Don't worry about offending me.
I just feel disappointed. It's cool. I'm just discovering things all the time here.


And I don't disagree with your point. I know (now) that the concept exists. I'm not at all convinced that the majority of whites feel this way, however. I'm not buying that.

And I also know it exists for Good Whites and Bad Whites as well. Even if it's not well documented on the Internet, it exists. I'm not about to assume or state that most blacks feel this way, but it's a concern... now.

Look at how Ceci responds to the whites in this thread who agree with her. Exactly what I said about Good Whites and Bad Whites exists in this thread. Agree with Ceci and you're a Good White. Disagree with her and you're a racist Bad White. Of course, you (HH) can agree or disagree with her and you're considered Good, because you're black.




BH, that's ridiculous. I say "Go Ceci" for bringing the topic into this discussion, and I'm perpetuating it? Um...ok...I'm not even sure what to say in response to such an illogical train of thought.


You misunderstood. I'm not saying you perpetuate the "Good Black/Bad Black" mindset, you perpetuate the idea that whites feel that way. I don't care how many people feel that way, to separate them out by skin color and say that because a number-greater-than-zero of white people feel a certain way, it's ok to perpetuate the notion that "white people feel that way" is a racist concept.



Do you consider yourself so well-educated that you know every single thing in the whole world?


Of course not. I believe this has been answered. I just think I would have heard something about it in 50 years. I have talked to a lot of white people over that time.




Save your rage for those who make the division and then exploit it. We're just talking about it. This is a discussion forum, right?


Yes, but you're talking about it as though it's a "white thing". If we were discussing crime and I said, "Next time you talk to a black person, ask them if they've ever been imprisoned." Don't get mad. Ok, MOST black people, the majority, whatever...



I'm crazy about you HH. That's not going to change because we disagree about something.
This is important stuff.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm not at all convinced that the majority of whites feel this way, however. I'm not buying that.

Please, I beg of you, read my sources. I promise, you'll learn something.




And I also know it exists for Good Whites and Bad Whites as well. Even if it's not well documented on the Internet, it exists.

You would know better than I, but the way it works around here, you need a source to back up a point. This topic is no different. You admit that you don't have one. Need I continue?



... to separate them out by skin color and say that because a number-greater-than-zero of white people feel a certain way, it's ok to perpetuate the notion that "white people feel that way" is a racist concept.

Actually, being that one of the links I gave you was about a black person who bought into the false dichotomy, I initially misspoke.

Further, being that you didn't catch my mistake, you didn't look at my sources.

So, we're both wrong.




I'm crazy about you HH. That's not going to change because we disagree about something.
This is important stuff.

Thank you. I was hoping this wouldn't be a 'thing.' I think you're hot too, in a not- gay way.


I think this is an important conversation too. Think of all the people reading this, members who have posted, member who haven't, even non-members...

I should also thank Ceci again, for starting this thread.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Malcolm made white people fear us, while Martin made people pity us. I prefer fear.


Is this really how you view the two men and what they accomplished? I really did not see this coming and I hope you don't think you will get somewhere by making other people fear you HH. Fear is not a means by which you can truly gain respect and acknowledgment, no, not really. And Dr. King did not make people pity you, he made people understand you and made them see beyond people like Malcolm who for the most part only affirmed racist views. Again I'm somewhat disappointed that you feel this way...

[edit on 11-9-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Look at how Ceci responds to the whites in this thread who agree with her.

I don't agree with everything ceci says, in fact, I have problems with her communication style (her's is not the only communication style I disagree with though). She knows this, and I think I've made that clear in this thread. Nevertheless, she is my friend and that won't change because of this thread. There's so much more to her than this one topic.

I think how she treats and responds to me is directly connected to how I treat and respond to her.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Is this really how you view the two men and what they accomplished? I really did not see this coming and I hope you don't think you will get somewhere by making other people fear you HH. Fear is not a means by which you can truly gain respect and acknowledgment, no, not really.

Did you read anything else I said? I was comparing two different methods of becoming fully free. I was talking about a very specific period in American history. So, yes, I think that fear would have accomplished the goal faster. The goal, in case you don't recall, was to stop certain white people from literally killing us in the streets. With a username like WestPoint, I thought you, of all people, would understand.


I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but, I take it you're around my age or younger. When you say that Dr. King "made them see beyond people like Malcolm who for the most part only affirmed racist views," it's clear that you have no idea what was going on then.

The following is how I understand it. I may be wrong, and someone will have to correct me. If I am, I will gladly amend my statement. Prior to Malcolm X, the Nation of Islam was an obscure religious sect, virtually unheard-of on the national scene. Prior to Malcolm X, the Civil Rights Movement was led, for the most part, by Christian ministers who advocated a peaceful, patient approach. So, before Malcolm X, there was no Malcolm-type figure for Dr. King to contrast himself against.

I'll explain why I said the things I said. In my mind, since I wasn't actually there, I see Dr. King as a wonderful man, damn near a saint. OTOH, I would trust Malcolm X to protect me. Do you see the difference?



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Please, I beg of you, read my sources. I promise, you'll learn something.



I will. I haven't, but I will. And I'm sure I'll learn something.




Actually, being that one of the links I gave you was about a black person who bought into the false dichotomy, I initially misspoke.


Aw, crap! And I missed the opportunity to catch that? :bnghd:



Thank you. I was hoping this wouldn't be a 'thing.' I think you're hot too, in a not- gay way.



Hmmm... "Benevolent Hottie"... I like it!


Gotta go! Jon Stewart!



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
Maybe someone who has seen it several times can comment.

Did you read my post on the last page?

Yes, I did. Are you the only member that has seen it several times, HH?



It appears that his hajj was key to his decision. But, this being a conspiracy site, one must always consider the fact that he may not have been sincere, and had a deeper motive.


This is the first time I've ever heard anyone question his sincerity. What might that 'deeper motive' have been?

I'm just thinking outside the box. As I stated, this is a conspiracy site.


If you would like to do some more research on one of our American heroes, this quote is from wiki. There's a direct link on the last page of this thread.

I can hardly find the time to research my own American heroes.


from FF
What made him change?... Even though Malcolm X was still racist when he died, he had made inroads to shaking off the racism that plagued him.


Didn't I answer this? Is my post not showing or something?

I think you gave your idea of what the answer might be. There may be other answers just as worthy of consideration.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone question his sincerity. What might that 'deeper motive' have been?

Originally posted by jsobecky
I'm just thinking outside the box. As I stated, this is a conspiracy site.

You still didn't answer my question.


Originally posted by jsobecky
I can hardly find the time to research my own American heroes.

When I said "one of our American heroes" that's exactly what I meant: OUR, as in our shared American heritage.

OTOH, what were you implying?


Originally posted by FlyersFan
What made him change?...


I think you gave your idea of what the answer might be.

Uh, no, I presented the statement in his own words. What more do you want?



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
You still didn't answer my question.

Politics. Power. Maybe he met some radicals who convinced him that he could win more minds with honey-talk,and still reach his goals.



When I said "one of our American heroes" that's exactly what I meant: OUR, as in our shared American heritage.

OTOH, what were you implying?

I think it's pretty clear. You don't speak for everyone. He was not everybody's idea of an American hero.

Clear enough?


from jsobecky
I think you gave your idea of what the answer might be.

from HH
Uh, no, I presented the statement in his own words. What more do you want?

From you? Nothing, because you're convinced that what you read he meant is the gospel truth and no further thought is necessary. That's your prerogative.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
OTOH, what were you implying?

Originally posted by jsobecky
I think it's pretty clear. You don't speak for everyone. He was not everybody's idea of an American hero.

Clear enough?

No. If you're trying to say something, come right out and say it. Jeez...


from HH
Uh, no, I presented the statement in his own words. What more do you want?

Originally posted by jsobecky
From you? Nothing, because you're convinced that what you read he meant is the gospel truth and no further thought is necessary.

You're assuming quite a bit. You keep asking a question, I keep answering it, in the man's own words. If you wish to divorce yourself from the most elementary of biographical research techniques, reading the primary source, you're on your own.



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