What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Malcolm made white people fear us, while Martin made people pity us. I prefer fear.

Fear or Pity... Are those the only choices? Isn't there a third option? What makes white people respect you?

Just thinking out loud...

HH: I respect your feelings on the issue of civil disobedience. It is fair to say that it was ineffectual. That is the way a lot of Black people feel. I take the middle of the road perception on this matter because I believe that both types of dissidence can work. I also believe that militancy has its place because in this world might does make right. And sometimes, you have to get someone to have the "crap scared out of them" in order to make them see what you mean.

Besides, the name of the Ray Bradbury short story is "The Other Foot". It is found in his short story compilations and it is a very interesting read. He has written other stories about Blacks trying to go to Mars and questioning the attitudes of Whites who want to prevent them from going there. I think, even though his work has been critically analyzed in many ways, these stories portray how Mr. Bradbury viewed the Civil Rights era and race-relations at the time.

Majic: I am thankful that you play the "good angel" sitting on my shoulder. I know it must be contrary to your beliefs, but you have paid so much special attention to my words and inferences that I believe that you are giving me special treatment in terms of especially pointing out my posts.

However, I know that your principles allow you to apply equality to everyone no matter what race, creed, class or sexual orientation. And I would surely hope that the "special treatment" of reading and commenting on how I post and make my opinions would be transferred to others on this thread. I would especially hope that you take time to point out the bigoted comments of others as well. That would truly indicate that you don't give "special treatment" to just one member of one race, but to all people of all races.

After all, you are trying to "deny bigotry" are you not? And I would think that it would be fair for you to keep that eagle eye on everyone else as well. Don't just pay attention to me. Extend your reach to others in this quest for equality. I'm sure they have made the same mistakes that need to be pointed out as well including your own.

Other than that, how do we address our feelings regarding the posts of others who have slighted us in some way? And how are we to discuss our opinions regarding the attitudes of others if we think in our opinion they strike us good or bad?

Again, I thank you for your "special treatment" in pointing out my errors. I will strive to be more constructive in future posts. Just don't forget your complicity in trying to dole out your criticisms of who is more "bigoted" and "who isn't."



[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Fear or Pity... Are those the only choices? Isn't there a third option?

Respect wasn't on the table, if you know what I mean.

He spoke in his autobiography something very important:

One of the major troubles that I was having in building the organization that I wanted--an all-black organization whose ultimate objective was to help create a society in which there could exist honest white-black brotherhood--was that my earlier public image, my old so-called "Black Muslim" image, kept blocking me. I was trying to gradually reshape that image. I was trying to turn a corner, into a new regard by the public, especially Negroes; I was no less angry than I had been, but at the same time the true brotherhood I had seen in the Holy World had influenced me to recognize that anger can blind human vision.

from The Autobiography of Malcolm X (1965)

Diana Wells, ed. We Have a Dream: African-American Visions of Freedom. New York: Carroll & Graf Publishers/Richard Gallen, 1993: 187.


Deny the hype that the GOP is trying to foster.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Remember HH, asking for respect by preaching and praying wasn't going to happen.

Instead, it was being used now by a lot of "people who judged on the content of character" to fuel their own issues regarding "reverse racism" and "quotas". They've appropriated MLK's quotes and abused them for simply that. The only way to receive it was to be "assimilating" and "accomodating".

But not one white dignitary will touch Malcolm's words. Even his most astute ruminations. I wonder why.


[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Fear or Pity... Are those the only choices? Isn't there a third option?

Respect wasn't on the table, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, I do know what you mean.
It's on the table now, though, right?

I can't speak for HH, but honestly no.

You still have to fight for respect. And sometimes, people get tired of repeating themselves in order to get it.

People don't earn my respect by repeating themselves over and over. That's not earning respect in my view. Some qualities that earn my respect are what people say, how respectful they are, how open-minded they are, how well they know themselves, whether they can admit when they're wrong, and how well they handle themselves when things get tough, among other virtues.

Repeating things does not earn my respect in any form. If that were the case, I would have a tremendous respect for George W Bush.

My question to HH is: Do you feel that a genuine respect for black people by white people is an option in 2006? Have we gone beyond the need to either fear or pity the black person? Is it possible to settle into the 'right'-ness of mutual respect?

I have respected many black people in my life, but some of the realizations I've had in this thread lead me to believe that I may be quite distanced from the thoughts and feelings of many other white people. Although I know for a fact that there are many who think like me as regards other races.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

You might be. But in 2006, the fight for respect has not changed. It is still has to do with Black people or others of color often trying to repeat themselves in order to be heard. Sadly enough, one time to voice their opinion is not enough--especially when white people just "don't get it" and "play dumb" in order to avoid what is being said.

And sometimes, it takes shock value to get their points across.

After all, people may not like Kanye West. But they remember the fact that he said "Mr. Bush does not like Black people". Now his words in a internationally televised setting made the Bush Administration during Hurricane Katrina sing a different tune, didn't they?

[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
You might be.

I might be what?

--especially when white people just "don't get it" and "play dumb" in order to avoid what is being said.

Is that what white people do?

Kanye West. ... Now his words in a internationally televised setting made the Bush Administration during Hurricane Katrina sing a different tune, didn't they?

They did? I don't remember the Bush administration changing their tune because of what West said...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Do you feel that a genuine respect for black people by white people is an option in 2006?

I think so, but the process is really going to be one person at a time.

Have we gone beyond the need to either fear or pity the black person? Is it possible to settle into the 'right'-ness of mutual respect?

Fear or pity were options of the Civil Rights Era. Now, I think it vacillates between fear and hatred. Despite evidence that our gov't had a large hand in filling the ghettos with drugs, no one pities us anymore because it looks like we did this to ourselves.

I have respected many black people in my life, but some of the realizations I've had in this thread lead me to believe that I may be quite distanced from the thoughts and feelings of many other white people.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Your outlook is really commendable.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
My question to HH is: Do you feel that a genuine respect for black people by white people is an option in 2006? Have we gone beyond the need to either fear or pity the black person? Is it possible to settle into the 'right'-ness of mutual respect?

I'm clearly not HH, but I believe we have, and I sincerely hope so. Given that people tend to hate what they fear, and despise what they pity, I do not believe fear or pity are effective in improving relationships between races.

I prefer respect on an individual level - after all, I should no more respect someone based on what color they are than hate them on that basis - and what Semper said a while back... acceptance of differences. (I think it was Semper... apologies if I got the name wrong).

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
... I would have a tremendous respect for George W Bush.

BH, you might have a different approach to apply respect to Black people.

Unfortunately for you, some white people do "play dumb" to avoid the question because it is out of their cultural context. You can talk about how many times a cop stopped you to a white person until you are blue in the face. Some will not understand the fact that "racial profiling" is a problem that continues to happen and that some African-Americans end up losing their lives because of it.

Some white people just "don't get it". You can speak about how you perceive Malcolm's words. There will be those that will simply not think outside the box and not see things differently about him because he will always be to them "an anti-White racist". I suggest you re-read the exchange between HH and jsobecky about seeing Spike Lee's film. If that isn't enough of a clue for you, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

You can "hear" someone's words. You can "repeat" someone's words. But do you truly understand those words? Will you make an effort to do so?

Now, there are white people who do understand and make attempts to analyze what is being told to them. You and others on this board have demostrated that. I laud those actions. I congratulate those actions. I encourage those of us to continue to strive to learn about others even when it might hurt sometimes to do so.

But respect is a two way street. You can say how much you respect some Blacks. But have you done enough for those Blacks to respect you?

And yes, Mr. West's words did spur Mr. Bush on to make several speeches and photo-op attempts to demostrate that he "didn't hate Blacks". One was an interview he had with his parents the Former President George Herbert Walker Bush and Mrs. Barbara Bush. They especially had to pussyfoot around her answer regarding those who resided in Houston's Astrodome near Reliant Stadium. He especially made it a point to discuss Katrina even as late as now to "try and release the impression" that he hated Blacks.

I suppose his so-called "advisor", Dr. Rice, had something to say for that. But isn't it funny she stayed very silent about the entire Katrina mess?




[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
BH, you might have a different approach to apply respect to Black people.

I may be mis-interpreting this, and if so I apologize and request clarification on what is meant here, but isn't having a different approach to applying respect to [insert race here] people exactly what is wrong here? The fact that for too damn long in this country, various races are not accorded respect by the same rules?

BH stated a partial set of her reasons for respecting someone:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
People don't earn my respect by repeating themselves over and over. That's not earning respect in my view. Some qualities that earn my respect are what people say, how respectful they are, how open-minded they are, how well they know themselves, whether they can admit when they're wrong, and how well they handle themselves when things get tough, among other virtues.

Now, someone may agree or not that this is an appropriate set of standards for applying respect, but they are clearly not related to race. So it seems to me that to say someone should have a different approach to applying respect to people of a particular race is counter productive to what we are all working towards here.

Again, if I have mis-interpreted your intent here, please accept my apologies and please perhaps expand a bit on what the statement was intended to mean.

Originally posted by ceci2006
BH, you might have a different approach to apply respect to Black people.

I think I do. My approach is to respect people if they deserve it, regardless of their color. I do not "apply respect" to a race. That's an individual thing.

Unfortunately for you, some white people do "play dumb" to avoid the question because it is out of their cultural context.

I don't consider it unfortunate for me. Most people don't judge me based on what other white people do. You're the first I've run into in a long time who does that.

Some white people just "don't get it". ... I suggest you re-read the exchange between HH and jsobecky about seeing Spike Lee's film. If that isn't enough of a clue for you, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Again, I don't make a judgment about how white people think based on what one white person does.

You can say how much you respect some Blacks. But have you done enough for those Blacks to respect you?

You'd have to ask them.

Originally posted by ceci2006
some white people do "play dumb" to avoid the question because it is out of their cultural context.

You are so right. I forgot where exactly, but somewhere in this thread, there's a conversation between two posters (one American, and one Aussie, I think) that goes kind of like,

Aussie:American blacks have it as bad as our own native people.
American:Yeah, how did you guys work that out?
Aussie: We recognized their continued suffering and gave them lots of land.
American:Oh, but it's easier there, because you guys had so much to give away.
Aussie: We look to America as an example of what would have happened if we hadn't made peace with our national past.

In this exchange, a 'foreigner,' someone not directly involved in US race relations, pointed out a fact, and his nation's combined solutions to a similar problem. The American comes up with a reason why his country couldn't employ those methods. Excuses, excuses... We all know that, in the early part of US history, the one thing we had in abundance was land. And commiserating with another human being is free. So why couldn't we use those methods?

Because the prerequisite is RESPECT. You have to respect someone to recognize their suffering and, apparently, the 'American conscience' is not ready to do that, which is not to say that individuals aren't. I'm talking about the national tone of this debate, which is the one that effects legislation.

I had been strongly aware of how the Black Nationalist political , economic and social philsophies had the ability to instill within black men the racial dignity, the incentive, and the confidence that the black race needs today to get up off its knees, and to get on its feet, and get rid of its scars, and to take a stand for itself. (qtd. in Wells, 187)

I knew, better than most Negroes, how many white people truly wanted to see American racial problems solved. I knew that many whites were as frustrated as Negroes. I'll bet I got fifty letters some days from white people. The white people in meeting audiences would throng around me, asking me, after I had addressed them somewhere, "What can a sincere white person do?"

When I say that here now, it makes me think about that little co-ed I told you about, the one who flew from her New England college down to New York and came up to me in the Nation of Islam's restaurant in Harlem, and I told her that there was "nothing" she could do. I regret that I told her that. I wish that now I knew her name, or where I could telephone her or write to her, and tell her what I tell white people now when they present themselves as being sincere, and ask me, one way or another, the same thing she asked.

The first thing I tell them is that at least where my own particular Black Nationalist organization, the Organization of Afro-American Unity, is concerned, they can't join us. I have these very deep feelings that white peopel who want to join black organizations are really just taking the escapist way to salve their consciences. By visibly hovering near us, they are "proving" that they are "with us". But the hard truth is this isn't helping to solve America's racist problem. The Negroes aren't the racists. Where the really sincere white people have got to do their "proving" of themselves is not among black victims, but out on the battle lines of where America's racism really is--and that's in their own home communities; America's racism is among their own fellow whites. That's where the sincere whites who really mean to accomplish something have got to work. (qtd. in Wells, 188-189)

[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]

BH, you really don't know whether those Black people truly respect you, do you? Maybe they too scare the crap out of you as well.

And no, you have made some very highly racialized comments here. So, don't leave yourself out of the loop.

And it is not "judging" by stating the obvious. Some white people do not get it. You've said many times how "clueless" you are and how you don't "understand".

OMS: No, I am not offended by what you are saying. People do have to respect each other from all sides. But what comes down to it is the logistics and the methodology of how to do it.

You can say you respect someone until you are blue in the face. But you have to practice it. Now that is questionable to some here whether I do such a thing or not. But I try to give people who respect me the same amount of respect. But no one, even myself, is free of biases.

Like I said before, for those I don't, there is usually a reason why. And I think it is honest to speak about why if it has to do with race. You can't sweep race under the rug by saying that you don't judge on color. Even those who "don't judge on color" act contrary to their words on some occasions. You cannot be totally immune to judging someone on the basis of race.

And sometimes it is the "treatment of those of other races" that help determine the amount of respect that you pay them. Now this is a very hard thing to say, but would someone respect all Blacks if some of those Blacks treated your brethren badly? Or would you respect some Blacks?

I mean, even in the discussion of Black dignitaries here, there is a difference of respect afforded to them based on deed, politics and color. It is inescapable. No one can be totally free of it. You can judge on content of character. That is fine. But in some circumstances race is easily accounted for.

Think about the issue of "bad" Blacks and "good" Blacks". A bad Black is someone who speaks out at the system and slaps the "Man" in the face with his or her comments.

A good Black is someone who idly sits by and accomodates. They fully speak about joining American culture without even questioning their treatment in it. And they fully accept the machinations of White society, even though some people in that society treat them with derision. They even speak out against their Brethren to satisfy the mind-set of some whites.

There has to be a change of definitions by the dominant culture about who is afforded respect around here.

Then, we could talk turkey.




[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
BH, you really don't know whether those Black people truly respect you, do you?

Why would it be any different than anyone else? Yes, I know they respect me. The fact that they're black makes no difference in the way they respect people.

Maybe they too scare the crap out of you as well.

I have never said anyone scared the crap out of me. You are posting false and misleading information. The fact that you repeat this lie in nearly every post you make is earning you no respect. Repeating it over and over only makes you look daft.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And yes, I agree with BH that Malcolm's words did produce a cathartic moment.

Another piece of false and misleading information! I never said Malcolm's words produced a cathartic moment. I said nothing even close to that.

You know how to use the quote function. If you can't keep my words straight for long enough to respond to them, please use the quote function and respond to them directly.

How do you truly know? You can say they respect you. But do they truly?

And about the quote function: speak for yourself.