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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 11:10 PM
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And I will second BH's WATS with one of my own, because some people truly have to use Malcolm's words of doing things "by all things necessary."

It is a powerful and telling statement about the human condition as well as what a people have to do to get their experiences, thoughts and dignities recognized in this world.

As of FlyersFan, the poor dear must have been blind. She was supposed to be gone, was she not? I give a nod to my friend whaaa who speaks of "one-dimensional thinkers". Obviously, she does not have the guts to truly talk about this vital issue and face up to the fact that Malcolm was important to a lot of Blacks back in the day as of now.

And BH, I surely hope that you have the guts to stay. Because I plan to be here. I just hope that there is a mediator sticking around.....


I'm pleasantly surprised that Malcolm doesn't "scare the crap out of you". He takes a much harder stance on the issues of race than me.

About Honesty

For all participants to talk about race, we must be committed to seeing the end result: for people to understand one another better and to treat each other with dignity and respect. It does not mean that the path towards this action goes smoothly. As you all can see, it does not. It's a very bumpy road. And also a hard one--especially when you have to lose people that you admire as friends because of a difference of opinion.

It is also not a very easy road because it is rife with abuse and tough talk. There is a lot of frustration around here. But there's also curiosity. And yes, curiosity is good. It is not pegging people to a specific realm of thought. It is not nailing people to the wall. It is coming together to hash out our differences to make a more positive contribution to having us speak with clarity about an issue that has bogged society down because of misconception and stereotype.

That is why it is necessary to have a no-holds barred discussion. This is not a tea party here. We're not having Earl Grey and crumpets discussing the latest hats at Ascot. We are all involved in a conversation that tests our morals, values and insights. We all have something to teach each other. And we have to take a step back with humility and learn from others as well.

My heart hurts for the more sensitive amongst us who have tried to tell others about this issue and have been ridiculed for our stance on peace and politeness.

That is why diplomacy does not work. Sometimes, we just have to shoot from the hip and let the chips fall where they may.

I'm sure that we can still be polite to each other in the midst of this. But sometimes, politeness isn't even effective in discussing these points.

That is why honesty is always the key. Because if we keep these thoughts and ideas to ourselves, we only prevent others from having the opportunity to hear our side of the story. More here than most threads, I am forceful for a reason. Because there are things to be said that otherwise won't.

And if some do not like it, I cannot help them. That is their personal feelings. This isn't Miss America. We are not trying to win a prize for the most kind, good and lovely of ATS. Popularity was never the key here.

I know for myself that this will not make me popular. For all I know, I am probably the most hated person on this board. But do I feel good for bringing this up? Heck yes. Will it help others? Heck yes. And will I still fight for my own dignity and the dignity of others who are still scorned by prejudice? Heck yes.

My ideals still have not changed because of this talk. I continue to believe in hope. Hope does a lot in a world filled with crisis.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 11:33 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic


You have voted HarlemHottie for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.


Ooo-wee! That is so exciting. My first! I told my mom and, shock of shocks, she asked me for the link to this thread, so she's reading this right now. Thank you, I've been feeling down and this little confidence boost was just what I needed. Your opinion means a lot to me, despite our semantic misunderstandings.


...now where's that little dancing banana?




I sat here and read it aloud as my husband listened and we both really enjoyed it!

Hi there, Mr. BH! Nice to make your acquaintance.




The mindset of American whites at that time was something very dark and ignorant. I can't believe people were like that. And I do know that some number greater than zero still exist and that makes me sick to my stomach to think about.

Thank you for saying that and distancing yourself from that train of thought. A lot of (black)people I know, who don't have much contact with whites aside from teachers, social workers, and medical personnel, think that just underneath their half-way decent exterior, lies lurking racist thoughts. The other group of whites they come into contact with, police, are very clear about their intentions. When I share some of my own "anecdotes about white people", it's like story-telling time and they're like, For real? I'm not even kidding. Of course, that's changing now, with the under 18's. They're really mixing up socially, which can only help the situation.

This is just speculation, but I think that's the reason some contemporary blacks have such extreme views when it comes to race relations, views that make them look like they're over-reacting... we (current adults) were raised by people who survived in a world peopled with those sickeningly racist whites. Everyday was, quite literally, a life or death struggle to them. If you were allowed in the store, the clerk would treat you bad, but don't sigh or roll your eyes because, within 5 minutes flat, your ass could be strung up on the nearest tree. Or, you could 'get away with it', only to put your kids to bed that night, and wake up with a molotov cocktail in your bed.

Imagine the stress of knowing that any day could be your day, and of course, you pass that along to your kids. It's like having a Vietnam vet for a parent. [I love 'em, but the majority are so scarred psychologically that being raised by one was probably very difficult.] So now, here we are, the kids, like Ceci and me, some of us incredibly pissed that "white people" (as it was generalized, because it was true at the time) screwed our parents over/up, whatever the case may be. But, we learned in school that some white people came together with our parents generation and tried to fix all that. So, we were relieved.

Then, you grow up, and look around in the real world and see that, while the more overt examples of racial terrorism have mostly been eradicated, it's still there. So now, we have a few problems, the first of which is, apparently, we've been lied to, en masse. That's enough to piss anybody off. Look, again, to Vietnam, and those disillusioned youth. Second, wth are we supposed to do??? The world seems to think we solved that problem, so how are we supposed to get the attention needed to make something happen? How do we make the story break? We try to use tragedies to highlight the continuous nature of the problem, and, instead of talking about it, people make fun of Jesse Jackson. Then, they "sweep it under the rug." I'm sorry to use that contentious phrase again, but that's why she said it.

Take Hurricane Katrina. While I'm fully aware that white homeowners in the area suffered as much property damage, if not more, than local blacks, the human suffering inflicted on survivors after the storm was mostly directed at blacks. I'm sure you heard about the group of survivors who, trying to escape the water, attempted to cross a bridge into the next town. They were shot at by local law enforcement. The only reason we heard the story was because there were a few British citizens in the group and they told the BBC when they got home.

I wrote like, an essay, in response to a little comment and I apologize. All of this just occurred to me, so I figured, what better venue?

I'll try not to do it again.




The source I read said he wanted to be a lawyer, but his teacher told him not to even pursue it...Most black children at that time were probably told not to have high hopes.

That's in the movie, just to get you excited to see it, but, yeah, you're right. My mom, in her 50's, born and raised in NYC, was told repeatedly in school, you ask too many questions. Is that any way to educate and inspire our future? I think not.



And yeah, who couldn't use a little Denzel?

Right? I was, like, 12, but I still would have introduced him to some adult woman I knew. Somebody should benefit.





posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
And I will second HH's WATS,

Thank you kindly.
Nice to see you.



because some people truly have to use Malcolm's words of doing things "by all things necessary."

I agree. Martin is, of course, Martin, and I respect and admire his maturity, but there comes a time when a man has to stop pussy-footing around the issue and get down to business. I don't think we didn't needed a saint at the time, we needed a leader to organize our defense.



It is a powerful and telling statement about the human condition as well as what a people have to do to get their experiences, thoughts and dignities recognized in this world.

...for us and the Palestinians, anyway.



posted on Sep, 10 2006 @ 11:49 PM
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I haven't reviewed the entire thread but always appreciate Ceci's thoughts. I am sorry you've felt beat up on in this one as I have only ever witnessed your kindness and thoughtul intelligence.

Regarding the thread itself, the problem with terms like "racism" or "terrorism" or any other ism, is that they are simple gutteral utterances which we are told will serve us by defining a many headed hydra. It is unfortunately an invitation to miscommunication IMO to rely too much on these terms.

For example, we seem to agree that racism is a bad thing, something to be avoided if not shunned. If racism is the act of treating an individual or group differently, and more importantly WORSE from "the norm" solely because of their race we should be able to agree that racism is, on its face, unfair to those so treated. This is because we conclude that the presumtion that a certain race of humans is deserving of a lesser quality of respect/treatment solely due to their race (whether skin color is different or not) judges people based not on merit but on, perhaps, the less substantive qualities of physical expression.

But what if we expand our consideration of the meaning of racism to include personal bias developed through a unique history living with or around those of the group negatively perceived? This makes racism a judgment based not solely upon the peculiar qualities of skin tone or hair type but also one founded in personal experience, which is perhaps the most significant source of personal knowledge we have to rely upon.

Thus, eradication of this personlized type of racism will be much more difficult than eradication of racism which is based solely upon ignorance and anecdote. If my boss at work is racist but I have no personal experience with the group he maligns I am much more likely to be persuaded by logic and love than if I have had a series of personal bad experiences with a certain racial group - especially of that racial group directed hate towards me solely because I was perceived to be "the other" due to my racial separateness from them.

While I do not believe there are any simple answers to this very well put and important issue I do believe that inroads can be made through dialogue and the continued development of inter-racial relationships. It is only through positive personal experiences that the "experienced" (if you will) racist is likely to ever be persuaded that all them such and suches aren't good for nothin' so and so's.

In my opinion racism, like all hatreds, is sourced in fear. For example, if a black person has been harmed in the past by a white person's hatred (fear) and that is the predominate experience that black person has had with any white people there is a good chance that he will incorporate a piece of that fear/hatred into his own personality.

Really, it's a defense mechanism. He's been burned once and the next time he'll be prepared for whichever bully decides to take a shot at him. This will be especially true if other blacks in his community reinforce the stereotype of the white man perhaps by referring to him generically as "cracker" or "the man". If it's a community-wide experience it will take an extremely strong and self assured black man not to become at least a little racist under those circumstances. And the same is true if roles are reversed.

The problem is that this is a vicious circle much akin to domestic violence. Once a couple devolves into a pattern of domestic violence it is extremely difficult to get out of that cycle. It is a pattern of behavior not without some rewards. For the willing racist he might get good feedback from the community (boss, e.g.) for his racist jokes or stories. This reinforces his relationship at work, etc., without a directly negative impact on any personal relationships because he has no white friends. It's a "win-win" for him and the bait is tempting to take for the weak minded.

At least, that's my 2 cents on the topic. Fundamentally, whenever we dehumanise a group of people because they're black, white, muslim, jew, etc., it allows us to isolate them and steal their property, jail them, rape them, murder them. And so we must fight against the apparent tendency to make any specific group of people "the other" in order to avoid our own loss of humanity. It' a very personal and individual thing and people have to recognise it and be ever vigilant to avoid the trap of racism or any ism.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 02:27 AM
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Seattlelaw: Thank you for your important words in putting this discussion into perspective. I agree with you very much on the fact that we must build our inter-racial relationships with others to lessen the "fear" of the other. It is my reason that I do not fear being called "racist", or having "anger against whites" or the fact that I have "inherent racism".

I don't fear these accusations because of the positive and life-affirming relationships I have had throughout my life. My parents were lucky to develop relationships in their married life before and after the Civil Rights era. I consider myself lucky that I had two humble, thoughtful people teach me the values of respect and kindess for everyone. As I mentioned before, it didn't mean that they were blind to the suffering of others as well as their own people.

Very early in my life, they taught me to respect everyone because of the friends they've had. And some of those friends are treated as family. Along with my real relatives, there are people within my parents' network of friends that I consider to be like "grandparents", "parents", "aunts" and uncles". And some are like "sisters" and "brothers" to me. What was especially important is that they came from all political, ethnic, racial and cultural backgrounds. Before I could walk, my parents' friends invited us to Chinese weddings, bar mitzvahs and other cultural events to meet and greet people as well as learn about other forms of culture.

Their patience and respect for others taught my sister and myself to care deeply for humanity especially when it came to servicing the community. This is the last time I'll bring it up, but that is why it is such an insult to me over what was said about my mother and father. They both share strong convictions and feelings, but they never would do what another poster insinuated.

And yet, there is a dark side that always haunts not only myself, my family and others of my race. We think about how far our people have come and how much further we have to go to gain full acceptance and equality in society. It fills us with frustration at times. It also fills us with purpose.

But these feelings of frustration doesn't make us martyrs. It doesn't make us devils. It makes us human. It makes us recognize that others like ourselves are disenfranchised by the system. It makes us more empathetic to those who suffer across the world. And the most wonderful and gracious things my parents would do throughout their long career of helping others as well as continuing many different friendships is encouraging my sister and myself to recognize current events and talk about them. We were asked how we felt about other people. We discussed our feelings not only as members of a country but as members of a race how other people felt according to different issues.

I think it means that we have to have a multi-leveled approach to dealing with society, its problems as well as the people in it. I also perceive that sometimes when there are things that get us down, we still have to believe that there are others who are going to still fight with a sense of justice and purpose.

So, I thank you for acknowledging the "bumpy ride" this thread has caused me. I appreciate you for it. However, I was raised to take my licks and keep on getting up the next day to join in the fight. And because of my principles, I am still able to wake up every morning,look in the mirror and still have a conscience. Having a conscience, possessing practicality and continuing discussion makes all of these actions worthwhile in the long run.

I especially find hope in discovering that others have the bravery to continue to discuss these issues. It's human to disagree and to fight. It's also human to express honesty and opinions.

But the most important thing is that you have to feel in order to evolve, learn and understand despite the circumstances. By evolving your sense of feeling and understanding, you begin to change your perceptions. I believe, that helps conquer the fear of the other. I also concur that it also encourages a form of comfortability around others different than yourself.

We are all at different levels here. And that should be respected. Some people are taking baby steps right now to understand the differences of others. And others are more open with their form of engaging this topic.

But the key here is expression. We must knock down the repression in ourselves to move ahead.




[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 02:51 AM
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HH,

I had to answer your post separately because you brought up so much in your answer to one of my previous posts on this page.

This is what I have to say:

I think that there was room in the Civil Rights Era for both those who practiced civil disobedience and those who were militant.

By saying those who were "militant", I mean they had an equally politicized and extroverted stance in fighting for the dignity of our people. Militancy is not wrong. It is necessary when the channels of politeness and diplomacy fail.

Rosa and Martin were both people who practiced a peaceful stance of defiance in their stands against the system. They were both frustrated by things occurring against our people. They expressed their courage in such a way to make a point about changing the way things were. They are important because they did take acts of courageousness in times of great struggle and danger. And both paid dearly for it despite being lauded in the end. Miss Rosa was arrested. Rev. King was arrested and assasinated. Because of their efforts, a lot of Black people learned that in order to change the system they must quietly resist the efforts to restrict their freedoms and civic duties in society. Through their works, they encouraged society to think of Blacks more humanely if not an active part of American society. They, like Gandhi, took a tough road as sensitive people who fought the system by quiet resistance. Peace, I believe, is a powerful force that is very hard to carry out. It takes very committed people who are willing to resist any attacks of hatred to keep on doing what they had to do.

Malcolm is a person who is dynamic, charismatic and rather outspoken. He was needed because the times called for a person of his caliber and strength to hit the point home that our people needed dignity. He also in his stances called for people to fight back in the face of such derision when the efforts of "peace" and "diplomacy" did not work. The reason why I consider him very important is that his life was a personal evolution. Because he was able to grow in his sense of purpose and effort, his strength invigorated others to carry on the fight when it became hopeless. He taught us to talk back and to fight for ourselves when no one would listen to us. He also taught us that the struggle just can't be just signed away with Civil Rights legislation. The struggle for acceptance goes on. His words are just as relevant as Rev. King and Miss Rosa's were. And in our struggle for acceptance, they teach us that we can't lie down and let them roll right over us. We have to get back up and continue the struggle once again for further progress.

Yes, his hajj changed him profoundly. I believe that it made him see his mission in life in a more multi-dimensional way. And who knows what he might have been if he was not taken out?

Of all three of them, Miss Rosa lived the longest. She set up institutes and continued her work in educating youth and being involved in politics. It is one of the reasons why I respect Rep. John Conyers from Michigan. He was a dear friend of hers. And he continues to work on the behalf of all of those in need. Miss Rosa in her own right, however, was a strong, elegant, Black woman. She walked in beauty and grace. She spoke quietly. But she moved mountains. And she never gave up. As I mentioned in previous threads, the reason why I honor her so much is the fact that she was a Black woman who changed the world by doing one thing with her tremendous courage.

She demonstrates that if one person could do one thing to change the lives of others in society, we all have that power in us somehow to do the same.

I think there is room for all three of them to help encourage us to fight for equality and respect. They each had their ways of doing it. But in the end, when dignity and respect cannot be earned through acts of diplomacy, one has to have the ability to rise up and gain one's voice through stronger means.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 05:49 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
She was supposed to be gone, was she not?

Wrong (again). I 'ditto'd the post that said we'd only talk about the subject, not each other. You misread. Again.


I give a nod to my friend whaaa who speaks of "one-dimensional thinkers".

Insulting (again)? No surprise there.



Obviously, she does not have the guts to truly talk about this vital issue ..


obviously you are wrong, AGAIN. Since I AM THE ONE who brought him up in the first place and asked the question to everyone - what made him change.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 05:54 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
what caused him to become "a street thug with a heart full of hate and racism" in the first place?

That's a very good question. Both questions need to be answered. Why did he become a street thug with a heart full of hate and racism and why did he change his view. As I said ... there is a key to better race relations in there.

Your information was very interesting and thought provoking. Thanks for the interesting information.

edited for spelling error.



[edit on 9/11/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 06:13 AM
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But still she comes back. Sigh...I guess one of us should stop with persuading the other to leave.

But it takes more than that to understand Malcolm X. And sorry, there's more to Malcolm than his transitioning from his early beginnings from Nebraska to a civil rights leader.

When you start denouncing "The Man", I'll truly think you've arrived.



[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 07:08 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
When you start denouncing "The Man", I'll truly think you've arrived.


Careful Ceci ... your racism is showing again.


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I don't think we didn't needed a saint at the time, we needed a leader to organize our defense.


HH

Defense is one thing .. but blanket racism is another. When Malcolm X stated that all white people were devils he had become a rabid racist. When he called for the streets to run with the blood of white people ... that was terrorism. He had become that which he hated. He became a racist and a terrorist.

What made him change? This thread is supposedly about discussing race relations and solving racism. Well .. here is a perfect example of someone who went from being a racist who called for the mass indiscriminate deaths of those not of his race, to a man who said that Allah viewed all men as His children.

Even though Malcolm X was still racist when he died, he had made inroads to shaking off the racism that plagued him. He had become that which he hated and he was moving away from that. WHY? He was solving his own racism. What was he doing?

I'm still convinced there is a key there somewhere.

Edited for spelling

[edit on 9/11/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 12:19 PM
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From the description of Malcom X's childhood described here it shouldn't surprise anyone that he had a personal bias against the white man. Any black raised in the first half of the twentieth century in the US was likely to have such a bias due to the acknowledged negative treatment and disrespect prevelant from slave days forward. Saying that he held "racist" views towards white people is an attempt IMO to demean his message as well as him personally. He held "racist" views therefore his views shouldn't be taken into consideration. It's a very "GOP" approach to the dialogue to attempt to mire it down in semantics rather than address the meat of the subject honestly.

Attacking Ceci by accusing her of being racist is a similar attempt to frustrate her and demean her message. It is callous and childish and does not serve as an attempt to understand her message or contribute meaningfully to the topic being discussed.

It reminds me of those who argued against affirmative action as a remedy to decades of unfair treatment which mired blacks in poverty and ensured they would not threaten whites by moving into their neighborhoods or dating their women, etc. The argument being that affirmative action constituted racism because it unfairly gave a boost to one racial group at the expense of another. As though whites didn't already have 99% of the advantages in this society by birthright.

It is true that racism exists for many whites and many blacks as a mental construct affecting their interactions with and personal views of others. To the extent Malcom was racist it was as an experienced racist. His views were those gathered as a child while he watched his family torn apart by bigoted whites in defacto control of his family's future. He was well schooled in racism. What else would you expect? It is not easy to be Christ-like in the face of ignorance, hatred and violence. I suppose that's why there's only one Christ. But he was adept at language and he used it as a sword to encourage blacks to shake off their history of lying down in the face of unfair and unjust treatment by the majority whites.

Did he advocate violence? Yes, he did. Does that disturb you? We are a violent people and he was also well schooled in violence. He learned well. But as far as I know, while advocating vioence early in his life, he never resorted to it.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
What made him change?
...
I'm still convinced there is a key there somewhere.


I think there's a key here, somewhere, too. And I really appreciate you bringing up this important question.

However, unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever really know what the particular cathartic moment was for Malcolm X (if even there was one). And even more importantly, I'm almost positive that, if another person were to experience the exact same moment that marked his change of heart, it wouldn't have the same effect in their lives.

I remember times in my life that were pivotal in changing my mind about something important. And when I look at the moment objectively in retrospect, I am sure that another person, exposed to the moment, wouldn't have gotten the same meaning that I did. Sometimes "the moment" was seemingly insignificant. But because of my context of life and my personal experience, it was hugely meaningful to me.

Pardon the possible preachy overtones and the use of 'collective speech' in the following paragraph.


That's why I think it's important for each of us to keep an open mind and be willing to let these "special moments" in our lives have the possibility of changing our way of thinking. It's important to constantly challenge one's rigid beliefs, if only for a moment. It's important to allow for the possibility that we might be better served to consider another way of thought, even if we decide that we had it right the first time.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
When Malcolm X stated that all white people were devils he had become a rabid racist. When he called for the streets to run with the blood of white people ... that was terrorism. He had become that which he hated. He became a racist and a terrorist.

What made him change? This thread is supposedly about discussing race relations and solving racism. Well .. here is a perfect example of someone who went from being a racist who called for the mass indiscriminate deaths of those not of his race, to a man who said that Allah viewed all men as His children.

Even though Malcolm X was still racist when he died, he had made inroads to shaking off the racism that plagued him. He had become that which he hated and he was moving away from that. WHY? He was solving his own racism. What was he doing?

Interesting questions, FF. I have watched the film "Malcolm Ten", but admittedly only with half an eye. Maybe someone who has seen it several times can comment. There may be a clue there, such as the birth of a child or something.

It appears that his hajj was key to his decision. But, this being a conspiracy site, one must always consider the fact that he may not have been sincere, and had a deeper motive.

This is overdue for you. We only get ten per month, tho. j/k




You have voted FlyersFan for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 02:06 PM
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Again, I thank you seattlelaw for your defense of my comment. And yes, I agree with BH that Malcolm's words did produce a cathartic moment. For me, it was very cathartic to say "by all means necessary". Because it meant that I was not going to take the derision against me anymore in my fight to express myself on this thread.

And no, Malcolm did not resort to violence. That is very important to note. But he voiced a lot of the frustrations and growing pains a lot of Black people were feeling in American society.

The question to be asked still is "who's anger" against the system is legitimized? And why does one think that what Malcolm said is entirely negative? Who wants to be a pushover? I doubt any of us here would like to lie down and take it from others without fighting back. That is very simple to understand.

On the other hand about the "Man", it's quite true. I don't believe it is racist to say so. FlyersFan is an example of a person who is taking baby steps in her understanding about the issues of at stake. It is very admirable. However, I still feel that she truly does not understand the implications of Malcolm's words nor his life story. That is why I expressed my skepticism.

She's still caught up on whether it was "racist" or not. It seems that the main message of the thread has not yet resonated with her.

But to discover that people can change, is an important first step. Perhaps she can take it a little further by stopping her animus against African Americans, by continuing to ask questions instead of condemning different Black dignitaries, Black culture and lifeways, and views. In that way, she might be moved to not be so "tired about race" (as dg defended of her actions). It shows by the attention she paid toward Malcolm is that there are other aspects of the Black culture she is willing to look at instead of paying court to those Blacks and other people of color who are "politically expedient" and "viable" in her mind-set.

For that, I give her a hearty huzzah.

Perhaps that baby step will compel her to perceive Blacks more on an equal stance with her continued understanding of Malcolm X.

I still have hope for people like FlyersFan. After all, I remember the story of a Klansman who changed his ways via a personal relationship with a Black woman with whom he became friends with. He discovered that despite their differences, they still cared about their children, of education and had many of the same hopes and dreams. He died recently. But, because of her friendship to him, he began to see past the hate, repented his actions and began to work on bettering race relations.

Just because she is "hung up on who is racist" now, does not mean she will be that way in the future. Race relations does not always hinge upon white people, their thoughts, intellectualisms and their desires in society. It allows for all of us to participate even in the face of when things take a downturn.

There is always the possibility that there is something that truly strikes a chord. That's why despite the accusations I have received, I still maintain my principles.

Perhaps, she will cleanse the darkness in her soul to see all Black people as people--not just the ones who have "assimilated". That day will probably be a long way off, but maybe....just maybe.




[edit on 11-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Maybe someone who has seen it several times can comment.

Did you read my post on the last page?



It appears that his hajj was key to his decision. But, this being a conspiracy site, one must always consider the fact that he may not have been sincere, and had a deeper motive.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone question his sincerity. What might that 'deeper motive' have been?

In case that was just baseless speculation, since you admitted that you only watched the film "with half an eye," and you obviously didn't read my post, I'll quote some of his words, post-hajj.



"In the past, yes, I have made sweeping indictments of all white people. I will never be guilty of that again — as I know now that some white people are truly sincere, that some truly are capable of being brotherly toward a black man. The true Islam has shown me that a blanket indictment of all white people is as wrong as when whites make blanket indictments against blacks..."
"While in Mecca, for the first time in my life, I could call a man with blond hair and blue eyes my brother."


If you would like to do some more research on one of our American heroes, this quote is from wiki. There's a direct link on the last page of this thread.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by seattlelaw
Attacking Ceci by accusing her of being racist is a similar attempt to frustrate her and demean her message. It is callous and childish and does not serve as an attempt to understand her message or contribute meaningfully to the topic being discussed.

It reminds me of those who argued against affirmative action as a remedy to decades of unfair treatment which mired blacks in poverty and ensured they would not threaten whites by moving into their neighborhoods or dating their women, etc. The argument being that affirmative action constituted racism because it unfairly gave a boost to one racial group at the expense of another. As though whites didn't already have 99% of the advantages in this society by birthright.

I've been thinking this. You put it beautifully.



And you were also right about Malcolm.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
When he called for the streets to run with the blood of white people ... that was terrorism.

Do you have the source for such an inflammatory statement?



What made him change?... Even though Malcolm X was still racist when he died, he had made inroads to shaking off the racism that plagued him.

Didn't I answer this? Is my post not showing or something?



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
I think that there was room in the Civil Rights Era for both those who practiced civil disobedience and those who were militant.

Personally, I think the peaceful approach was inefficient. That's really my main problem with it. All the talking and marching and praying and singing... I think all of that, the culture of our peaceful resistance, dragged the whole thing out, at least 10 years. If you really think about it, that's why our generation is still dealing with the problem. As is obvious by some of the replies, Malcolm made white people fear us, while Martin made people pity us. I prefer fear. Might makes right. That's how it works in this country.



Militancy is not wrong. It is necessary when the channels of politeness and diplomacy fail.

There ya go!

And the way I see it, we got out of slavery and 'polited' our way right into Jim Crow.



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 03:00 PM
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Walking The Walk

Sometimes a little perspective can be educational.

politics.abovetopsecret.com...


Originally posted by ceci2006
This is a discussion. Harlem Hottie and myself should not have to feel guilty for voicing our concerns. And we should not have to be put on trial for doing so.

Then the racism from both sides should cease and desist, am I correct? Or is the accountability for racism too lopsided in trying to highlight it?

The other thing, Majic, is that your "finger-wagging" session about racism helps perpetuate the "Us vs. Them" mentality. Your words do not help. They really don't. People should not have to feel persecuted in conversing honestly about race. Posters cannot do that with the threat of being called "racist" hanging over their heads. If they did, the poster would have to censor everything that they say. It is just like having their posts pointed out as containing "aggressive tendencies" or "possessing an axe to grind".

You don't like to be called racist at every turn, do you not?

It's like burning a witch at the stake.

The difference between you and me is the fact that I don't go around calling people racist at the drop of a hat. But I see that this is a peculiar habit of the dominant culture. To be truthful, I find that you and a whole lot of others are quicker than an African-American in "crying and screaming racism". In fact, you "cry racism at every turn" quite frequently. It's fascinating. Why is that so?

You posted this earlier in this thread in response to comments I made about your behavior, and I apologized for making personal comments about you, because I agree that it was wrong for me to do so.

Since then, I've been quietly following this thread, trying not to get in the way, wanting you and the other members discussing this issue to feel free to be candid and not having to worry about me restricting your freedom too much.

But throughout all this, I'm seeing you do exactly the kinds of things you condemned -- when the shoe was on the other foot.

I invite you to look at your own posts over the last several pages, and imagine that it was me posting what you've said -- about you. If you want, I can post examples, but I would hope that's not necessary.

Look at what you've been saying about other members, then change the names, and put yourself in the position in which you have put others. Would it be right for me or any other member to behave the way you are behaving?

I don't think you are meeting the standards you expect others to meet.

Are you willing to practice what you preach?



posted on Sep, 11 2006 @ 03:03 PM
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I think that the most expedient way in learning about Malcolm is to read The Autobiography of Malcolm X.

That would cut the pussyfooting about his mission and life way down.



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