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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 12:36 AM
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Semper, it is true that sometimes all it takes is a whisper. But there are other times when you've whispered enough and still you get ridiculed and ignored. Believe me, a lot of whispering has been done by the more sensitive of us on this board all ready.

Do they actually listen to what we were trying to say?

There are some people who have. And I thank them. But there are many others who, like I've said before, don't give a darn how much whispering we do. And then, there are others who are convinced by those who don't give a darn and readily believe them to the point of mimicry.

Yep. The whispering can be still done. But I wonder if it is truly effective.

There are just other times you have to shout, by all means necessary.




[edit on 9-9-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally quoted by Majic

I don't think this is a very fair thing to say.

Perhaps we could be more constructive?


Yes, Majic. It was not a fair thing to say. But nevertheless it is true.

No.. despite it being subtle it was still RACIST.

Suppose, you had someone in a post insult your parents,

Have they? Thats awful.. care to provide a reference to it?

insult your committment to "deny bigotry",

I have indeed questioned your motives and your commitment.. and I still have every right to given you were even racist in you last post.


I do not like people who treat others badly of all races. Especially when they fingerwag and "play dumb".

Wow the hypocricey is astounding.

You asked me where I was when a man from china was posting about his homeland.. you also accused me of being racist because I did not participate. I actually left for a couple of months because of that other thread you posted which has several examples of you blatently violating the rules without even one warning so I decided to steer clear of ATS because I thought it was inconsistant. Nothing has changed. I have seen people banned for alot less yet you seem to have been given immunity.



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 01:01 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Suppose, you had someone in a post insult your parents,

Originally posted by riley
Have they? Thats awful.. care to provide a reference to it?

Here you go:



And I invite you to deny the lies told to you by your parents, just as I denied the lies told to me by mine about black people.

I left out who said it because I didn't feel that information was neccesary to show that it has been said.



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 01:11 AM
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HH,

Thank you very much for what you did. All I can say for riley's benefit is that:

1)I have u2u-ed the mods to check out my work and ask them what they have thought of it.

2)I have openly asked the mods to give me a warn and close the thread.

3)I have even asked those who said I was racist to complain to the mods about me.

4)I still ask the mods for those things to be done if I'm the blatant, virulent racist riley thinks I am.

However, all I can say to riley if she wants to highlight "Anti-White" racism, start a thread about it. She needs to help her brothers and sisters acknowledge the sins done against them instead of pussyfooting about it with me.

If she wants to talk about the persecution of whites in history, there are many examples. The Holocaust needs a lot of help because the sufferers who have stayed in the concentration camps are dying off. We all need to remember what has been done and never forget it. Stalin's efforts against his own people need to be spoken about as well. The older Soviets (Russians, now) remember what Stalin was like and it was horrific. Why not concentrate her efforts on the old Soviet Block of countries in which a lot of whites died? And if she really wants to get controversial, she can talk about how white pioneers in all the countries they colonized suffering at the hands of the "natives". I would love to hear her take on that. After all, she wants us all to know about the suffering of whites.

Yes. Why should we care about some of the posters here meeting a Chinese scholar on ATS when the suffering and racism against whites are more important?

Better yet, she could start a thread about the history of her own country and how the whites fared there against the indigenous cultures. That would be interesting as well.

I don't hold the puppet strings. riley has a mouth and a mind of her own. She can start a thread on her own instead of using mine. She can earn points and get a little respect from her "ilk" by denouncing another form of bigotry: "Anti-White" bigotry.

And if it is very educative, I would love to read and be informed on "Anti-White" bigotry since it is a big deal on this board compared to other forms of racism.

And then, my thread will be left alone to discuss other matters that need to be discussed.

However, wouldn't riley be more interested if not a little aggrieved over the death of Steve Irwin, a fellow Austrailian compatriot, than this petty business?

I'm very sorry that Steve Irwin died. I loved his show and adore animals. I especially love nature.


And the last time I looked, he was white, wasn't he?



[edit on 9-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie


And I invite you to deny the lies told to you by your parents, just as I denied the lies told to me by mine about black people.

I left out who said it because I didn't feel that information was neccesary to show that it has been said.

Thanks for clarifying.

I wasn't sure as there have been many people quoted as saying things they didn't even say. I thought this may've been the case.

Ceci,
There are many instances where you have been blatently racist and personally abusive to various members. I have not reported you as I have seen mods participating in threads so they would've already been aware of violations. I will not start a thread about 'anti-white racism' as it's still racism so it is therefore not a seperate issue. I find it disgusting that you have the gall to leacture people about it and practice it at the same time. Maybe you could try at least getting through at least ONE page without comparing people to slaveowners just because they disagaree with you.

[edit on 9-9-2006 by riley]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 02:07 AM
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Is that all you can say? Instead of pity, I have just one other thing to say.

All I ask is to focus on the real problem at hand: the suffering of whites and the racism against them. Leave me out of your tirade. Please.

Instead, use your energy to write about the suffering and racism against whites everywhere. Maybe that might help some of us understand the depth of this problem.

Might I suggest Charles Murray, Pat Buchanan and Tony Snow to help you? Some whites have developed their lack of guilt feelings, developed a hypersensitivity to "diversity" while complaining about "Anti-White" racism because of these three authors. Also because of them, some whites have developed a sense of superiority and licked that "white guilt" clean away because it was so sickening.

With that little push, I do have something to say about your words addressed to me:

Shame on you. I'm supporting your fight to acknowledge the suffering of white people. Why aren't you pleased? Is it now racist to support your fight to acknowledge White suffering? But there's a little secret: I don't necessarily agree with the three authors mentioned above. But they are quite useful to others.

Furthermore, I haven't compared you or Steve Irwin or Semper to a slave owner. So you are wrong. You should express gratitude that even some Americans appreciate the work and the candor of Steve Irwin. He did all he could to protect nature and animals. Do you not like nature and animals?

Be happy that I pointed you in the right direction with three white authors that will help you on your quest to feeling your superiority and right to dominate others in terms regarding crying about race. They're controversial, but they all talk about white issues.

I did talk about pioneers. And yes, pioneers are pioneers. They aren't slave owners. I was just asking your opinion on how they suffered against the "natives." Heck. You ought to know, since you are so attuned to white suffering. Those poor whites fought their way into new territory and forged a society. Forget the fact that they burned their own people at the stake and unleashed biological warfare against the indigenous population. Small potatoes. You should be proud of your people.


Slave owners are slave owners. In fact, there was one poster who admitted in this thread that his ancestors were slave owners. But yes, poor BH. I'm sorry for that, of course. But I'm not sorry for pointing out her utter meanness. And like Miss Scarlett, BH is a very high-spirited and strong woman full of personal drama who withstood many changes of fortune. And it was used as a form of personality and power. I've said all along that BH and myself have power issues to work out. When I said it the first time, I related this to a type of power issue. It's not my fault she does not want to work out her end of the "power issue".

But unfortunately, Miss Scarlett was a slave owner who slapped and whipped a few slaves. Heck. Other people seem to forget that part to worship Scarlett O' Hara as well as other GWTW characters like Rhett Butler. Why not anyone here? People can bury anything they want to make it seem right. Isn't that the fact? Just ask Mitt Romney.

And please stop lecturing me. Instead, do what you can to combat Anti-White racism, since you are concerned with it. Heck. Whenever any of us talked about the racism against Blacks or other people of color, you cried foul. So, it's best to call racism and racist acts what they are in your conception: Anti-White racism.

Racism against anyone else does not exist in your world. You've said it long enough. Now earn your just deserts. Put your money where your mouth is and talk about the suffering of white people. And then, please never say that I was being insensitive to your rather impolite and bellicose demands. I support you on your quest to uncover white suffering!





[edit on 9-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 02:33 AM
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And by the way, riley, with that new definition of racism, that gives you a lot of octane to start a thread highlighting your conception of it.

It's just a shame when I agree with you spreading the word about your concept of "racism", you balk at it instead of having the guts enough to talk about it.

I'm sorry you don't have the bravery. But I hope that one day you do have the courage to start your own thread and discuss your "concept" of racism. Some people on this board will agree with you totally. There are some white posters around here that feel disenfranchised by the system. I read a lot of posts from the likes of them how they are being ignored.

You'll get a lot of mileage from them. I encourage you to do it. What's so racist about that? Racism against whites is a problem. However, I'm not the one to talk about it. You are. And you have personal experiences to prove it. You'd be wonderful on a stage by yourself with all eyes on you.

I'll just be reading to learn from you and see if you can post some scholarly articles on this terrible action against white people.

Go for it, girl. I think since 9/11 is coming up, you'll have a very captive audience because of the hatred of terrorism. Get your brass ovaries. And give racism a sock in the eye.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we can talk about culture again. However, no one has ever answered whether they would give up their culture, heritage and language for the benefit of Black people in society?

I've always wanted to know whether anyone would do it. But the skeptic and cynic in me says no one would. And still no one will answer it.



[edit on 9-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 05:00 AM
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Oh heck, I'll answer you.


No, I would not give up my culture to become black. My culture is part of who I am and if that changes, then I change. I like me.

But I also don't expect Black people, or Asian people (who get a really rough ride on this board as well, at least the Chinese do - constantly being accused of being CCP shills if their first post, and every one after, does not detail how much they hate their government) or First Nations people to give up their culture either. It's part of who they are.

I think this whole melting pot, assimilation of the cultures into one big homogenous blob should be optional. There are so many amazing cultures out there, we should be able to clebrate the beauty in all of them.

I celebrated last weekend at AfrikaDey 2006, and honestly, I didn't encounter any racism against the 'so white she can't even get a tan' girl. I did meet some really hot guys and danced my butt off though.



Edited to add: Hmmm, I don't think I really answered your question, but I tried.......I don't think anyone should have to give up their culture. I guess anyone includes me.







[edit on 9-9-2006 by Duzey]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
I would love to read and be informed on "Anti-White" bigotry ...


No you wouldn't. I posted just some of the anti-white bigotry done by Jesse Jackson and you went into a tail spin. A racist, hate spitting, insult spewing TAIL SPIN. Spitting into white people's salads and being full of glee as they chewed through it ... that ring a bell?? Anti-white racism by Jesse Jackson .. and you couldn't handle it let alone 'love to read and be informed' of it.


And then there were they references by him and Al Sharpton to NYC as 'hyme town' (excuse spelling .. I have no idea how to spell it) and the statements that white people moving in were 'white interlopers' ... etc etc

None of that was welcome.

Edited due to West Points comments.


[edit on 9/9/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 09:58 AM
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I actually said the words that Ceci considers an insult to her parents.
It wasn't, but that's all she's got to make me look bad. And that seems pretty important to her right now...

Context is pretty important here. Here's what I actually said.


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And I invite you to deny the lies told to you by your parents, just as I denied the lies told to me by mine about black people.
...
I just know that I picked up racism from my parents and I remember the moment I realized that they were wrong about black people. I assumed that you picked up at least part of how you feel about white people from your parents. I apologize if this assumption is incorrect.


And even though it wasn't meant as an insult at all (after all I acknowledge that my parents played a part in teaching me about race), I saw that Ceci was upset about it and I apologized and Ceci accepted my apology ...supposedly.


Originally posted by ceci2006
And yes, I did accept the apology about my parents.


Yet she continues to act as if it's the worst sin against anyone to suggest that their parents may have lied to them about something. Join the human race. If you were told about Santa Claus, you were lied to by your parents. I think we all were in one form or another. It doesn't mean they're evil or bad parents. It's just an observation.

And Ceci,
I have never said that you scare the crap out of me! I'm not scared of you!

I have never said that black people scare the crap out of me. I'm not scared of black people!

I have never said that I choose not to believe you!

All of that was not said to you. And here's what I actually said to HH:


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But my point is - You, HH, have told me that many black people feel the same way that Ceci does. This is not hopeful for race relations. It puts fear and doubt into my mind. See, I thought we had come further than that. Now, knowing that many black people feel about white people the way Ceci does about me... That scares the crap out of me and does absolutely nothing for the advancement of race relations. To know that they might refer to white people as "Miss Scarlett" and think that's not a racist thing to do? Yeah, that's a scary thing indeed.
...
But I'm hoping to go on and actually not believe you when you say that many blacks feel the same way that Ceci does.


Funny, this can be held against me as the worst sin in nature, but the fact that Ceci has spewn racist, hate-filled insults toward everyone else, including me, and they don't seem to count is just really amazing to me. Maybe that's because I don't twist them around, repeat them out of context, constantly cry and complain about them and bring them up in every post. The loudest wheel gets the grease...

As far as I'm concerned, Ceci, you have no room to complain about the alleged 'insults' I have supposedly doled out. Your insults are 10 times more venomous and personal than anything I have said. That's the only reason I can figure that you refuse to quote me directly. They're so much more impactful when you add your special twist, take my words out of context and misquote me. :shk:

Look, if you feel you've been insulted, take it to the mods. But stop bringing it up time and time again in the thread... even after you've accepted an apology! If this thread means anything to you (as you claim) stop complaining and get on with the subject matter.



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 10:39 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
I've said all along that BH and myself have power issues to work out. When I said it the first time, I related this to a type of power issue. It's not my fault she does not want to work out her end of the "power issue".


Ceci, the only "power issue" I have with you is in your constant struggle to misrepresent me. I do not have any feelings of power over you, nor do I feel that you threaten my power in any way. Whatever you're referring to is all in your perception. I have no desire to have power over you. Perhaps you feel powerful or powerless when talking to me, but I assure you, it's one-sided.

You could not possibly be any threat to me as regards my power.


The only 'personal' problems I have with you are your penchant for insulting people (and I'm over that now - it doesn't mean anything anymore since I realized what was going on) and that you twist my words and misquote me here and misrepresent me to others who are reading this thread. That's why I feel compelled to respond and defend myself. For others who might be reading. I don't really care what you think, but I do care that others at least have the facts with which to make their judgments about this situation.

That's it. It's no biggie. No power struggle, no "power issue". No big, dramatic, underlying slave/master complex. That's all yours. Good luck with that.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Now we can talk about culture again. However, no one has ever answered whether they would give up their culture, heritage and language for the benefit of Black people in society?


I'll certainly answer if I haven't already. No I wouldn't. I'm with Duzey on this. I can't possibly see a benefit for anyone to give up their culture for another race or culture. I don't see how it would benefit black people for me to give up my culture (whatever that is).


Different cultures, languages, heritages, races are very beautiful and interesting. Why would there be a need? Acceptance is what needs to happen.

I'm not sure that's the kind of answer you're looking for either. Maybe I don't really understand the question...



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 10:49 AM
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Holy Jesus this thing flared back up again for no apparent reason, at least to me that is. All I can say is that this is not productive, helpful or respectful, anyone wishing to bring this back to insults and personal jabs is not interested in the topic but merely interested in venting their personal hatred and anger at others. And in doing so they hope to entice so that the original action can be retroactively justified. :shk: Know yourself first before accusing others of anything.


Note: I will no longer participate in this thread unless it gets back on track, and I very much intend to keep my word.


[edit on 9-9-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Note: I will no longer participate in this thread unless it gets back on track, and I very much intend to keep my word.


Out of the mouths of babes...
Bless your sweet heart.

This is one bandwagon I will gladly jump upon! I, too, will only participate in this thread as regards the original subject matter. I'm done defending myself and my words. Let them stand for themselves. If anyone reading this doubts me and my character because I've been misquoted or misrepresented, I strongly suggest you look up my actual words.



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I, too, will only participate in this thread as regards the original subject matter.

Ditto.


If anyone reading this doubts me and my character because I've been misquoted or misrepresented, I strongly suggest you look up my actual words.


Again. Ditto. And no BH... I don't have doubts about your character or integrity. None at all. Lies, misquotes and misreprentations will not change that. I think after this amount of time and this amount of reading your posts I know you better than what some have misrepresented you to be.


Frankly, you are one of the most moderate voices on this site and you are very fair. You know we are not on the same page in politics, but that's fine. You are always respectful when discussing any subject. I aprpeciate that.

ON TOPIC -

It is very possible to hold onto heritage while at the same time being progressive and responsible members of society. However, to hold on too tightly to the past can weight a person down and hold them back as well. Healthy balance is required. Open eyes. Open mind. Just becausue something was done a certain way for a long time doesn't mean that is how it should be done.

Segregation was a part of southern culture. To hold onto that culture would have been bad for society and for the souls involved. It had to go. Slavery was a part of culture in parts of this country 150+ years ago. It had to go.

Some cultures and heritages can be held onto. Some have to go.

edited for spelling.

[edit on 9/9/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
One of the most arrogant things I've read so far is the fact jsobecky said that some Blacks celebrate Kwanzaa instead of Christmas?


My good friend from the army is white. Her husband is black. They have 3 children. Up until 3 years ago they were all Christian and all celebrated Christmas. Now they instead celebrate Kwanzaa. They still claim to be Christian however they gave up the holiday of their religion, the birth of the Son of God and savior of the world, to celebrate something that was contrived in the 1960s and has very little to do with Africa.

It's sad but true.

Edited for spelling (I'm a lousy speller).

[edit on 9/9/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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WP23 and BH,

I respect your decision to opt out of this thread until it returns to normal. Many other people have already done the same, I fear. And I have no doubt of your resolve to keep your promise.

But, it's sad, because that is exactly what the goal was. Now the thread has lost two intelligent, well-intentioned members, and the vitriol against other members will continue.

I guess the only good thing about this is that there are many other threads where you should be able to post without these attacks.

I hope you come back to this thread soon.



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
ON TOPIC -

It is very possible to hold onto heritage while at the same time being progressive and responsible members of society. However, to hold on too tightly to the past can weight a person down and hold them back as well. Healthy balance is required. Open eyes. Open mind. Just becausue something was done a certain way for a long time doesn't mean that is how it should be done.

Segregation was a part of southern culture. To hold onto that culture would have been bad for society and for the souls involved. It had to go. Slavery was a part of culture in parts of this country 150+ years ago. It had to go.

Some cultures and heritages can be held onto. Some have to go.

Excellent points, FF.
I have always thought that the good parts of any culture will always find a way to survive and be welcomed into society, and the bad parts will be weeded out like chaff from the wheat. That's as it should be; even the most productive fruit tree requires occasional pruning.



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
But, it's sad, because that is exactly what the goal was. Now the thread has lost two intelligent, well-intentioned members, and the vitriol against other members will continue.


I'm sorry. Let me clarify my position. I will continue to participate in the thread. But ONLY on topic. That's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. My bad. I'm not going anywhere.



Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I, too, will only participate in this thread as regards the original subject matter.


I want to answer FF's excellent points, but I've got some other household stuff to do right now. (Dag-nab it!) I'll be back. Count on it.


[edit on 9-9-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 12:18 PM
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I too opted out on this thread after participating for a short while...not to the extent of some of the others here, but still I was here and willing to participate...then the name calling, and baseless accusations began...it went from a thread discussing an important issue to basically a flamefest. With my temper, I decided to leave before I wrote something unforgivable.

If and when it goes back to being about the issue, and not personalities, I might come back...this is much too important a topic to let die because some people can't keep personalities out of it.


[edit on 9-9-2006 by seagull]



posted on Sep, 9 2006 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
It is very possible to hold onto heritage while at the same time being progressive and responsible members of society.


I agree. I don't think it serves anyone to give up a part of who we are as people, our culture (if it's important), our heritage, customs, etc. Many people are very connected to their culture and relate to it in a very base way. I think it's important that they (we) feel free to keep in their lives what they deem important.


Originally posted by FlyersFan
However, to hold on too tightly to the past can weight a person down and hold them back as well. Healthy balance is required. Open eyes. Open mind. Just becausue something was done a certain way for a long time doesn't mean that is how it should be done.


I couldn't agree more. It's all about balance. There's room for everything, as long as we're not infringing on the rights of others. No one has to feel threatened because the town celibrates Cinco De Mayo. There's nothing else going on the 5th of May anyway!
Why not take the opportunity to celebrate with people of a different culture, learn something about them and have some good Mexican beer?

It should be each person's choice which customs and holidays they like to celebrate. I don't celebrate Christmas and I don't find it sad at all. I don't feel like I've given up a part of my heritage or whatever. I chose to give it up for my own personal reasons. Each person's choice should be theirs alone. There should be no pressure to celebrate anything. What fun is that?



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