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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 09:00 PM
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Duzey,

Thank you for bringing up Dick Gregory. He said a lot of wise things in his long career as a social activist and a comedian. He should be placed upon our pantheon of people we look up to.

And yes, I get what you are saying. That is why I am trying to end this today. I know I probably have not been successful. But yes, I am trying very hard to be a better person in all of this.

Of course, there are things on this thread I regretted saying. But what I truly want is honesty. I think it's okay to say when you are angry or frustrated at the system. That isn't a mark of personal responsibility. I also think it is all right to question people on the habits of another race. That isn't racism. It is curiosity.

The problem is that people are sensitive about being called racist because of the stigma. On this board, I've been called racist so many times, that now it doesn't bother me except for one thing. The only thing that does bother me about it because I cannot truly be honest and demonstrate my love for everyone because of the stigma. Because people say it over and over, I cannot ask questions the way I want to. I cannot demonstrate my difference of opinion concerning issues. And everytime I say I love all people, that stigma of racism and "racial anger" is there.

What right is it of anyone to say that I have issues of "racial anger" and they don't? What right is it of others to speak of personal irresponsibility when they will not listen to the other side of the issue?

What right is it of others to bring up my personality when I am merely trying to express my view?

The problem is that this thread started out with two simple questions. It was different from the "race is taboo" thread because I had asked if someone who was a "representative" of their race would speak and answer questions others of us asked. Boy. Did I get raked over the coals for that one because it came to my attention that was "racist". I came from a culture that talked about what different races did all the time and no one called it racist. But now, people were "offended".

And as I read about criticism about Israel, people get called "anti-Semetic". But when they talk about Muslims, the same criticism does not happen. I wonder why.

Because there are "sacred cows" we need to tip over here as well? Are people sensitive about one group of people over another?

Or is it that there are one set of social rules that will be executed opposed to another?

Or is it that "Jim Crow" ettiquette" is still quietly followed even though forty-two years have passed since the ending of Jim Crow laws?

What I'm saying, Duzey, is thank you for understanding what is at stake. All of us should be permitted to speak our minds without the usual gang beat down.

And I will heed your words and try to make things better. I certainly hope that others will do the same. And that we learn to make things more polite between us. Not to mention the fact, that we can learn more about each other. So, I will just on my part have to try and do my best to stay polite.

I believe we can make this thread a success. I can only focus on my own committment to do so. It's up to everyone else to do the same.

I'm just sorry to lose a friend over this. This is only a topic. It shouldn't be anything more than that.




[edit on 2-9-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 10:24 PM
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I told you I'd regret it.


Ceci, which friend have you lost? It certainly isn't me.


I'm just going to respond to both BH and Ceci at the the same time here, because that way I don't have to seperate the post up and try to make it flow nicely. Plus, I'm all posted out after that long-winded ramble.

Please don't feel that my post is directed at any one person. I wanted to get everyone to just stop and think for a moment on the fact that how we say things very much affects what people hear you say. We're discussing an emotional issue and people's feelings are going to be involved. Nobody needs to justify their feelings, but we need to realize that everyone has them. If we want other people to hear what we are saying and give it reflection, we need to put it out there in a way that allows them to get the message.

I do agree that sometimes things have to get uncomfortable in order to get to the bottom of an issue or a problem. Believe me, it made me very uncomfortable to make that post. I don't want to upset anyone or hurt their feelings or come across as some preachy purple dinosaur named Barney that wants to hold hands and sing songs. So yes, I know that sometime uncomfortable is the way you have to go.


When something upsets you, bothers you or hurts your feelings you need to speak out or nothing will ever change. Keeping it inside is unhealthy.

Another personal Duzey motto: We teach people how to treat us.

I'm a curious person by nature, and I ask questions all the time too. There's nothing wrong with that. It's the best way to learn. I remember shocking a group of co-workers once by asking one who was Jewish if Jews thought that Jesus was just some made up guy or if he was a real person, just not the son of God. I grew up in a small city and I had never met a Jewish person before. Who better to ask? She didn't take offense and answered my question. Everyone else was stunned that I had asked her such a thing. Nobody thought I was anti-Semetic, they just couldn't believe I brought up the topic.

I agree that people are afraid of being called a racist and that stifles discussion.

Regarding the issue of nobody being allowed to say anything bad about Jewish people, my opinion is that it might have something to do with the relationship between Judaism and Christianity and the whole biblical Abraham, Sarah, Hagar story.

This is all just my opinion, however, and I know that there are others whose differ. I just wanted to get mine out there.


...

Upon further reflection, I'm seeing the absurd humour of me sitting here trying to give an effective communications course in a thread about racism, in SlugFest no less. :shk: It makes me wonder if no-holds barred is the way this forum is supposed to be, am I going to be in trouble with the boss?


Maybe you should all just pay the crazy lady with the happy green sea serpent avatar no mind.



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
Maybe you should all just pay the crazy lady with the happy green sea serpent avatar no mind.


Wait, you're a girl? Holy... here I am all this time thinking... and you think you know someone.
Well just my thoughts.



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 11:09 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
I do agree that sometimes things have to get uncomfortable in order to get to the bottom of an issue or a problem.

When something upsets you, bothers you or hurts your feelings you need to speak out or nothing will ever change. Keeping it inside is unhealthy.

Issues are one thing, Duzey, and sometimes debate can get quite heated over them. Israel/Lebanon and illegal immigration are two other examples.

But, people need to keep it focused on the issues. There has been way too many personal attacks going on here. I've never seen so much BS thrown around in ATS. And I do mean personal. Uncalled for, mean-spirited. There is no need or place for that. Esp. when people try to deny it, justify it, or gloss it over and then return to sling more of it. All that does is detract from the topic.

Majic has been struggling with creating a new set of rules for Slug-Fest; there's a thread dedicated to his comments and thoughts on it. He hasn't found the perfect recipe yet, but he's still trying.

I agree that keeping things inside is unhealthy. But if someone needs to resort to scatalogical attacks, then they aren't referring to the issues anymore. They are just being potty-mouthed, to try to shock and hurt someone else.

This thread is what, 28 pages now? But probably half of them are personal attacks and responses to those attacks. I don't think that was the intent of Slug-Fest.



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 11:37 PM
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People think I'm a guy all the time, WestPoint. I guess it's because I don't have a girly name or avatar.


Jsobecky, I think you are preaching to someone who is singing in a choir very similar to your own. I find the personal attacks and whatnot keep us from actually talking about the topic. I don't think lashing out is ever the right answer.

This isn't a criticism of SlugFest rules, just me being my usual obnoxious self giving my opinion on the issue. I just happen to have the opinion that if people don't learn how to play nice with each other and expect people to have to justify their feelings, then the issues surrounding racism are never going to be properly addressed. People will be too busy arguing amongst themselves.

After all, it is SlugFest, and I can say pretty much anything I want, right?




[edit on 2-9-2006 by Duzey]



posted on Sep, 2 2006 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
After all, it is SlugFest, and I can say pretty much anything I want, right?


Are you using that as a justification for the personal attacks? If not, I'm unclear as to why you would say that.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 12:06 AM
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No, I'm not trying to justify any personal attacks. Are you saying that I have made some?
If I have, please let me know as that is not the kind of person I am. I think they are counter-productive and I always try to avoid making them.

I said that because of the irony of me expressing my opinion that fighting is getting in the way of addressing the issues and I came off sounding like some kind of nutball who wants us all to treat each other with respect while posting in SlugFest. I wanted to make it clear that I was not criticizing the way it was being run.

I didn't want to make Majic mad at me. It's happened before and it isn't pretty.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
No, I'm not trying to justify any personal attacks. Are you saying that I have made some?

No, you haven't made any, Duzey. You're very polite.



I said that because of the irony of me expressing my opinion that fighting is getting in the way of addressing the issues and I came off sounding like some kind of nutball who wants us all to treat each other with respect while posting in SlugFest. I wanted to make it clear that I was not criticizing the way it was being run.

Now I see. My bad.


I didn't want to make Majic mad at me. It's happened before and it isn't pretty.

I can imagine. He is capable of talking someone to death. (j/k, Majic)



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
When something upsets you, bothers you or hurts your feelings you need to speak out or nothing will ever change. Keeping it inside is unhealthy.


This is so true. And I want to clarify that the stuff I explained on the bottom of page 27, I was totally unaware of. I mean, I didn't even know I was hurting, or I would have said so. I even told my husband that I wasn't hurt, heck no! I was angry. And it wasn't until I read your post, Duzey, that I realized that my anger was covering pain. I knew I felt like lashing out, but I thought it was because I was angry.

I don't get hurt. I'm tough. I'm one tough broad!
But every once in a while, something gets through and because I'm not used to being hurt by words, I don't recognize it. And I was (not-quite-so) blissfully unaware that I was operating from a place of being hurt, not angry. That was just the armor talking.

So, thank you very much for assisting me in that breakthrough.


I don't want to make this a therapy session, either
but this 'emotional' stuff happens to have some import when discussing something as sensitive as race relations. It's a subject sensitive to many of us.

Equality (not specifically racism, but broader equality and respect) IS a subject close to my heart. It HAS been important in my life. I really, honestly care about harmony and equality for all people. I care a lot. That's why I've been involved from the beginning.



Maybe you should all just pay the crazy lady with the happy green sea serpent avatar no mind.


I'll listen to the lady, if it's all the same.
She seems to have some very important things to say.


Thank you!


Originally posted by jsobecky
Issues are one thing, Duzey, and sometimes debate can get quite heated over them. Israel/Lebanon and illegal immigration are two other examples.

But, people need to keep it focused on the issues.


A wise man *cough-Majic-cough* once said, "If you're discussing the issue, you're on topic. If you're discussing another member, you're not." It's really quite a simple concept, but it's one of the most difficult to follow.



But if someone needs to resort to scatalogical attacks, then they aren't referring to the issues anymore. They are just being potty-mouthed, to try to shock and hurt someone else.


I think I'll be more vocal when I see this happening. Nothing says you have to be a mod to steer the discussion back to the topic(s) instead of people. I will strive to speak only of issues (even if it IS off-topic here in Slug Fest) instead of other members.

I apologize for my part in leading this thread so off-track.

The subject at hand

So, I'm going to address the original concept of this thread once again 28 pages later, and say that one of the most important things we can do to address racism and race relations is to do our very best to talk about it instead of talking about each other.


And while I do think talking about racism is important, I think doing something about it is far more valuable. We can sit here and talk about it all our lives while it continues to thrive outside our homes. But I'd like to have a bumper sticker that reads:

Racism: Don't talk about it. DO something about it!


So if I may redirect the discussion slightly (as I'm about all talked out on the subject) Is there something that we can actually, practically DO in our neighborhoods, communities and cities? Or is it a matter of addressing it when it comes up in our faces?

Because that's all I really do. When I run across racism, I point it out, address it, do what I can to fight against it. When I see that someone needs help, I help. I donate to specialty causes that involve other races. I give of my heart and wallet. Should I be doing more? And if so, what?



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 09:08 AM
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from BH
So if I may redirect the discussion slightly (as I'm about all talked out on the subject) Is there something that we can actually, practically DO in our neighborhoods, communities and cities? Or is it a matter of addressing it when it comes up in our faces?

Invite a minority and their family from your neighborhood or work to stop over some evening for burgers and a beer. And when you're all together, don't talk racism, unless they bring it up. Just be friends. It's contagious.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 04:52 PM
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BH, All I can say is that, yes it is personal. It started being personal when you told me that I was "controlling". It started being personal when you began to accuse me because of my comments emitted "racial anger" and "inherent racism". It started being personal when you insulted by parents for teaching me to hate whites.

It started becoming personal when you said what I spoke was "delusional". And of course, it started becoming personal when you began to say that you "combatted racism before I was born".

All I can say is that you have a right to be hurt because you hurt me first a long time ago. Except, being who I was, I tried to make things better. But no, you went right on and began to insult me more and more. I think you don't really think about what you say.

I tried to tell you. But you said you weren't sorry and refused to apologize. You still won't.

Unfortunately for jsobecky, there are others' who have the "potty mouth" around here.

I am sorry I had to go for the jugular to get you to understand. I never do that unless I get backed into a corner. And when I do, I fight like a dog to get out.

I hope that you bring up as well, to make people "never forget".

That's why I say, never underestimate kindness for weakness. Not the first time when I asked you to point out what I said was "racist" (that was an act of courtesy) and not now when you said I was spreading "lies and manufactured comments". You've got to see that sometimes cultural experience does not have us understand everything from the other side. I don't. But I do have the foresight to see when you repeat something more than twenty times and the other race does not understand, sometimes you have you use another way to get them to.

I'm sorry that the "lyncher," "Miss Scarlett" and of course "horse feces" retorts was the way to get you to understand the depth of the issue. And truly I don't care if you bring it up again and again. Because even though in conscience, I felt terrible for saying those things, I assertively spoke my mind. And I don't feel bad for being assertive.

Continue to do it, and I will always be there to explain it and fight for why I said it. Because I'm a tough lady as well.

But each of these things are true. You don't understand how much of a power relationship is involved. You do try to put people on trial. And you openly admitted that you don't like it when there is a power relationship that is over yourself. And yes, because of your image on this board, people will believe everything you say. It's true. I got the brunt of it when I said those very words. But no one would ever investigate whether I might have some truth to what I was saying.

But they were readily believing what you said about me. I wonder why.

That is fair. But, I've never done such a thing. I was being assertive in stating what I do like and don't like before you come out and tell me how I feel on a certain topic when it isn't true.

That is why I'm hurt. And again, I am sorry to have lost you as a friend (on your end). But let's work it out. I am very diplomatic.

I've tried over and over to make things right with you. But you only see things your way. And you continue your drama and get others to feel pity for you, even when you are dead wrong.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And dear Duzey, you're still my friend because I admire your kindness, honesty and caring. You're perfect the way you are. I thank you for being there when we need you the most. You've earned my friendship a long time ago, as a matter of fact. I have a tremendous and profound respect for what you say and do on this board.





[edit on 3-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 05:16 PM
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I also have a profound and tremendous respect for Majic as well. He is always there for advice when you need him. And he does speak with a lot of wisdom about all topics. The thing that I like about him most is his honesty, intelligence and his humor. And his ability to help others is simply wonderful. I cannot repay him for all that he's done to help me on this board.

I believe him when he says that he speaks for equality for all people. But even with that, he acknowledges that there is disagreement on how it is to be achieved. Even though he has strong opinions and says them, he apologizes. He also is very polite for all the posts I have read.

Most of all, he has a conscience for what he does and says.

It's okay to have strong opinions and state them. But the problem here is which ones are to be accepted and what isn't.

And that, is something that a lot of people don't understand.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just find it amazing that those who led the personal attacks want to start talking about the issue now.





[edit on 3-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 05:35 PM
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from ceci2006
Unfortunately for jsobecky, there are others' who have the "potty mouth" around here.

Don't single me out. I just brought it up. It's unfortunate for every member here. And I don't see anybody else referring to horse feces or STD's.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 05:39 PM
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Well, I'm glad you've got an eagle eye. But unfortunately, you haven't learned not to butt in to other people's conversations.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Well, I'm glad you've got an eagle eye. But unfortunately, you haven't learned not to butt in to other people's conversations.

Then don't drop my name in your posts.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 06:03 PM
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As you say, you can't tell me what I can or what I can't post. You're not the facilitator here.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 06:04 PM
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Listen to you. Whining again.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 06:06 PM
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And listen to you. Derailing the topic.


Do us all a favor. Stop trying to portray your victimhood for all to see. Not to mention your fake sentiment for bettering race-relations.


[edit on 3-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
But no one would ever investigate whether I might have some truth to what I was saying.

But they were readily believing what you said about me. I wonder why.


Okay. Let's investigate, then. I will do the investigative work here to see what's going on.
And I can tell you now, the reason people believe what I say is that I use actual quotes of your posts to show your exact words and DO NOT make up things that you said... And I have a reputation of telling the absolute truth. Because I do.


Originally posted by ceci2006
It started being personal when you told me that I was "controlling".


Yes, I did say that. Here's exactly what I said:


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You are a strong, intelligent and yes, controlling woman. Just like me.


So, if it's an insult, I guess I insulted myself, too. I certainly don't think it's an insult. I think it's an observation. I am fairly self-aware and I see this quality in myself. I don't think it's a bad thing except when used in a destructive manner. So it wasn't meant as an insult. If you insist that it is, there's really nothing I can do about it.


Originally posted by ceci2006
It started being personal when you began to accuse me because of my comments of "racial anger" and "inherent racism".


A search for the terms "racial anger" and "inherent racism" in a post by me for the past year do not show any results. Your accusation is not true.


Originally posted by ceci2006
It started being personal when you insulted by parents for teaching me to hate whites.
...
But you said you weren't sorry and refused to apologize.


Here's what I actually said. Not surprisingly, I didn't say your parents taught you to hate whites.


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And I invite you to deny the lies told to you by your parents, just as I denied the lies told to me by mine about black people.
...
I just know that I picked up racism from my parents and I remember the moment I realized that they were wrong about black people. I assumed that you picked up at least part of how you feel about white people from your parents. I apologize if this assumption is incorrect.


And I did apologize.


Originally posted by ceci2006
It started becoming personal when you said what I spoke was "delusional".


A search for the term "delusional" in a post by me for the past year does not show any results for posts in discussion with you. Your accusation is not true.


Originally posted by ceci2006
And of course, it started becoming personal when you began to say that you "combatted racism before I was born".


I did say that. After you called me apathetic several times, I defended my interest and empathy in the subject of racism:


Originally posted by ceci2006
But, of course, it is apathetic when you say you can't do anything to make it right.
...
I think that you are still taking an apathetic stance toward this issue.



Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I was fighting the racism fight before you were born. I have acknowledged many times that racism happens, I have been immersed in black culture, I have had hundreds of discussions about it, confronted people in public about it, 'preached' about it and cried about the suffering of others.
...
How dare you tell me I'm apathetic?



Again, if that's an insult to you, I'm baffled. It was a statement of fact, not an opinion or insult.


Originally posted by ceci2006
I am sorry I had to go for the jugular to get you to understand. I never do that unless I get backed into a corner.


You 'had to do it' then? Okay.


Originally posted by ceci2006
I'm sorry that the "lyncher," "Miss Scarlett" and of course "horse feces" was the way.

But each of these things are true.


If that's what you need to do to get your point across, then I guess that's what you need to do.

Ceci, I'm not claiming to be an angel here. Along with my reputation as an honest person on this board is my reputation for being harsh, frank, in-your-face and challenging. I don't claim to have been all sweetness-and-light to you. I haven't been. I don't claim to have made no mistakes. But clearly you have your own idea of what I've said and most of your accusations about what I've said to you are not based in reality. Maybe that's why you felt so upset and felt like you were in a corner. I don't know. I'd like to make a suggestion that next time you think I said something, look it up and see what I actually said.

That might solve a lot.

[edit on 3-9-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 06:13 PM
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And unfortunately, you have your own idea of what you've said as well. You don't always post quotes you know. I remember asking what I said was racist, and you said "you didn't have to". In case you say that was delusional, it was in the "racism is taboo" thread. And know, it isn't delusional what I said. I suggest you reread what I've said and stop trying to interpret it as something else.

Unfortunately you "do use the truth" and you twist it to suit your beliefs.

Well, don't fault yourself for being like Brutus. I'm sure he didn't mean it when he plunged the knife in Caesar's back. After all, you told me long ago, that I wouldn't be sure which side you'd defend.

And yes, while we're talking about "combatting racism before I was born", why not direct people to the entire post and exchange. It was insulting. It was also insulting when you said you chose "not to believe me". And you felt saddened that a lot of Blacks thought like me.

And yes, I did accept the apology about my parents. But I still consider it an insult and an offense. Please. "Denying the lies that my parents told me."?


In your mindset regards to Black people, do you find anything remotely offensive about that statement? Any thing? I ask this before I go below the belt. I'm giving you a chance.

So much for being immersed in Black culture. Do you ever wonder why Black people don't tell you everything? Ever wonder why you haven't had a conversation this deep before?

So, yes, you peddle horse feces and people believe it.

I personally don't care if you have an "in your face style". I like it when people shoot from the hip.

But you've got to stop your drama. It's not delusional. It's real.




[edit on 3-9-2006 by ceci2006]



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