What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

Wow, It's Almost Like We're In Slug-Fest!

Oh wait, we are.

Yes, this is Slug-Fest and here we try not to be too touchy about things, and I am certainly not free of sin myself, but I think we really are going somewhat afield of the topic -- while perhaps illustrating some of what underlies the problem, ironically enough.

Every war begins with a pointed finger, and at this point the fingers are flying.

In one sense, it's good to get this off our collective chests, but in another sense, if we stray too far from addressing the questions of race relations and racism and instead allow this to become a flamefest, we all lose.

So -- if we can -- let's try to avoid getting too involved with what we think of each other as people, and see if we can get a clearer idea of ways racism can be confronted.

Learning By Example

There are many differing opinions on the issue, obviously, but I think some very good points have been made in this thread.

If someone were to come along and read it from start to finish, I think it would be educational -- and that's not bad for a subject which usually perishes in flames.

It's okay that we have different points of view on this issue, and it's okay that we disagree on it. That doesn't mean any of us is evil, just different.

Perhaps recognizing that may itself be an important step toward finding a solution to the problem of racism.





[edit on 8/28/2006 by Majic]

Instead just give me the warn and close this thread. It would make a lot of people happy.

I have seen more animosity and insults, along with name calling, in this thread than any other currently on the board. I am puzzled at the moderator's lack of attention to comments such as "And Miss Scarlett, yes, it is a victory. I'm right. People will believe you even if you let horse feces fly out of your mouth. And what you truly said was that. Enjoy stomping in what you've said."

This has continued from the first couple of pages, where the disrespect caused GradyPhilpott to move this thread out of Social Issues to Slug-Fest, and it keeps getting worse instead of subsiding.

Most other members would have been formally disciplined and/or the thread shut down if they had acted in such a manner. Yet, for some reason, it is condoned in this thread and with this member.

As I said, I am truly puzzled. The quality of ATS suffers when this is allowed to continue unchecked.

Well, when you complain about Black people, their politicians and their lifestyle that's what you get.

I'm so sorry that your sensitivities are so disturbed by all this "name-calling" on the thread. Maybe you should have never come on this thread if you felt so distressed about this. Maybe you should return to your thread about Ray Nagin and participate there.

[edit on 28-8-2006 by ceci2006]

Majic, it isn't about disagreeing over different points of view. Everyone would welcome a ribald discussion.

It has to do with the points I raised in the previous post. Of course, I realize that having posted that would only make it worse if discipline were to take place now.

But maybe for future reference...?

Edit: look at the post above this one to see what I mean.:shk:

[edit on 28-8-2006 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by Duzey
On the other hand, I can see where Americans who are black are coming from on this one. If you are from a group of people that have been used, dehumanized and discriminated against for centuries, it's going to take you a lot longer than 40 years to recover. People who suffered from these things are still alive. The attitudes that made it possible are still alive. It is going to take time for black people to be full partners in the American dream. Just like it is going to take time for women to break through the glass ceiling in any numbers. The same goes for First Nations people whose communities are ravaged by alcholism and drug addiction.

Please don't miss this post by Duzey on the bottom of the previous page. If I had another Way Above...

Thank you Majic for your level head. Sometimes I get caught up in the drama. What am I saying? I LOVE the drama. But you're right. This thread has a lot to offer.

jsobecky, I'm a little puzzled, too, but this is Slug Fest and sometimes ya gotta take full advantage of that. And just trust the mods. After all, it's not hurting me any.

Let's just chill and if anyone wants to talk about racism instead of each other, this is the place to do it!

Okie-Dokey?

[edit on 28-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by ceci2006
That is why I am going on hiatus from this thread. I am going to stop talking about it for now ....

So much for this promise ...

I notice that the remarks about going back to 'slave headquarters' and peaking out from the window were removed. How about the remarks about lynching? hmmmm?

Discussion of a subject is wonderful MAJIC. But when Ceci is involved she ALWAYS degrades the conversation down to name calling. She is GUILTY of STALKING and misrepresenting quotes from other threads. When she is bested by the FACTS that manage to slip through her insults she stomps off while shouting insults at the posters who don't share her skewed vision of the world.

Why she hasn't been given multiple warnings is a possible consipracy in itself. Telling 'Ms Scarlett' that she spews 'horses feces' and should stomp in it is NOT at discussion of any level - not even in 'slug fest'. It's just garbage

She should be banned for her massive STALKING and misrepresentations.
For some strange reason that hasn't been done so the best we can do is IGNORE and/or not feed the troll.

Slugfest doesn't give a 'get out of jail free' card for stalking, lies, namecalling and misrepresentations.



[edit on 8/28/2006 by FlyersFan]

Nothing like calling people names just long enough so they can see them and then editing the thread 3 or 4 times.

Hmmm...so here we have a thread about racism, but the contents (judging by comments) of the thread are just as divided as the subject.

Racism is a matter of one or more cultures that are at odds over values. It could be skin color, methods of worship, or other complex issues.

Now in this case, we have a clash of words and thought. I've seen things from casual insults to being called a troll. I find it ironic that the entire premise of this thread was to ask how we can come together and stop racism.

This thread seems to prove clashing over values can't be stopped. People get angry very quickly and can't seem to be more "thick skinned" even when it's only words on a screen. Take that to a dimension where there was slavery, segregation, and even lynchings and you can certainly see why racism (as an issue) has continued.

[edit on 28-8-2006 by ZeddicusZulZorander]

This thread stopped being about racism on page 1. The point of behavior being condoned here that would not be condoned from any other member is the problem. Discussion cannot thrive, when people are constantly attacked. They are forced into defending themselves instead of discussing the issue.

To categorize the problem as "casual insults" is to minimize and ignore it. Especially when we've all seen members disciplined for far less.

And this thread is just the most current example of that behavior.

But this is my last comment on that topic. I'll move on and accept the tier structure being enforced.

Hi Zedd. (Wow, you and Majic... Big Guns)

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
This thread seems to prove clashing over values can't be stopped.

I do believe that clashing over values CAN be stopped. It's a matter of saying, "I feel this way and it's true to me, but another person (because of their life experiences) feels just as strongly another way."

We don't have to respect or believe or agree with everyone's thoughts, but if we respect the other person and treat them with respect, then we can come to an understanding. We can truly agree to disagree.

I do that all the time here on ATS. Nobody has to be 'wrong'.

We all have our experiences in our lives that make us who we are and give us the context through which we see life. Each person's is different. But when we let emotions take over and start lashing out because of a difference of opinion, then things can get ugly real quick.

I'm thick-skinned, but there are certain things that go right through that skin. And they hurt. I hate to admit that but it's true.

But my hope is that we can all calm down here and move through this and get on with the subject of the thread. If there's any more to say.

[edit on 28-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by niteboy82
I would love to discuss this with you, because I think it could be an incredibly enlightening thread. I am not racist. I have a feeling though that if I get involved here, I will be called one. How are you helping foster a quality discussion if you're going to do this?

I'm more than willing to have a discussion with you. As I said, I think this would be great. Race relations will not be solved with instant reactionary posts. Calling people cowards is not solving race relations, either.

[edit on 8/28/06 by niteboy82]

Then you should of used that space you used to type that; to contribute your opinion to the discussion topic.

This thread started out well and was going good. Let's not kill it. One thing for sure is that has made everybody who has read it, think. And that's all we can hope for in expressing our opinions. IMO none of us are absolutely right in our perceptions and formulations, so lets just type things out and read them as they come.

If we don't reply to off topic comments they die on their own, leaving the good stuff behind. Quit feeding the nonsense. We are not here to change minds. Just give them some tools for growth.

I suppose a pretty good rule of thumb would be if you have to start your post addressing a poster, it's probaby a good time to post in a u2u.

I think if folk would just learn to relax, and try to be more comfortable in their own skins, then a large leap could be made in race relations. I've been in situations where whites are sickenly nice to non-whites, and in return, the non-whites are sickenly nice to the whites. The whites being so, because they're trying so hard to not appear discriminatory, whether they are or not. And the non-whites 'cuz they know what the whites are doing, and trying not to appear as they know. Funny and sad at the same time.

I had to take a break from this thread because... well, I guess this forum is living up to its name.

It seems like, for the last few pages, we've been focussing on Ceci, but I don't think she's the main issue here. Of course, a lot of her comments expressed frustration, anger, whatever. So what? I've seen the same behavior in other threads. It's up to us to keep on-topic.

However, racism, obviously, is a very emotional issue, and our personal feelings can't help but cloud whatever contributions we wish to make here. It seems like there are several 'camps,' a word I'm using to describe clusters of belief, not collusion.

One group thinks that racism is dead and that, by talking about it here, or anywhere, we're just stirring up old drama. This group may also believe that it's in the best interests of people of color to do so, since that is the method by which they obtain "special treatment," or "hand-outs."

Another group thinks that racism still exists, but that its not as bad as it once was. According to this belief, people of color should be happy with the advancements made thus far, but shouldnt really push the issue. Little by little, they think, progress is being made.

The last group thinks that racism affects every facet of our lives and wonders where the other two groups have been for the last forty years. They cite academic papers, news reports, and other "proof." This group may also believe that there is a conspiracy to "keep blacks down."

For the purposes of this thread, the first group should leave. The thread, as stated in the original post, begins with the premise that racism still exists. If you are of the belief that, out of all the problems we have in this world, racism is no longer an issue, you should begin your own thread. Maybe something to the effect of, 'What are our REAL problems?,' or 'Distractions: The Little Blue Pill of the NWO."

If that were to happen, perhaps the other two 'camps' could have a conversation, still rife with disagreement, but at least they could address what they see as an issue worth discussion.

First of all, I thank the mods, Majic and Mr. Zedd for calming the situation down. For this they have earned my respect and eternal gratitude no matter how they feel about me.

And all I can say about what took place today is that talking about race is an ugly business. And that is why people have to be thick-skinned in the first place. And yes, they do have to have balls.

But as I explained earlier in the thread that this topic is not about me, my behavior or my opinions. It is about helping race-relations get better. Furthermore, it is about trying to solve racism.

And instead of stifling the issues of race, I would encourage others with different views to follow HH's request to start their own threads and engage more of our members in various discussions on this issue. It would be interesting to read and see how people think about their own ways of discussing race.

As for myself, I am proud of this thread. I fought to stop the labeling of posters and their ideas. And I continuously requested honesty from the posters. I post these issues not to "spread Anti-White" racism or to "complain about white people". I post these threads because I want to see society (trapped in an aura of mistrust of each other after 9/11) get better.

It's not about preaching. It's not about being "holier than thou". And it's not about "gunning for revenge". The only request I have is to stop the cognitive dissonance and understand one another.

I'm not a stalker. And yes, I'm a tough debator and a fighter. But I'm also a good and generous, warm-hearted human being. I'm not tired of race. And I certainly would want even the least of us to gain dignity and respect that they deserve.

And I will bring up race in any topic I please. I don't have an agenda. I don't hate myself. I am subservient to no one. And I certainly do not need counseling over my views. And yes, I am proud of my people. And no, I do not have any issues regarding lack of self-esteem.

Heck yes, I'm very plain spoken. I will say what I do like or don't in a heart-beat.

And despite being accused, stigmaticized and put through a behaviorial analysis by some of our more "astute members", I still love you all. I still respect you all. And I thank you for debating me.

But never mistake for one second kindness for weakness. War is easy to commit. Peace and understanding is far harder to uphold and work on.

Today was a very hurtful and horrible day. And I pity those who want to stop talking about racism and race relations. Race and racism is here. There is nothing anyone can do about it except to learn tolerance and understanding concerning the issues at stake.

I especially am gratified by donwhite, nextguyinline, 2manyquestions, niteboy, HarlemHottie and Duzey for their participation. They represent the even-tempered, kind, sharp, intelligent posters you could want in a thread. I've read their other posts. And I've gained tremendous respect for their comments, observances and candor. They are a thread-starter's dream. I thank them for their respect, kindness and sensitivity when dealing with this issue. They are the true conversants of this issue because they each contributed their ideas without vicissitude or labeling. They plainly spoke and asked questions. You all are my heroes because you all see this issue as it is. And you don't treat it with disrespect.

All of us have a lot to learn from all of you. Please continue to contribute and share your wisdom with us.






[edit on 29-8-2006 by ceci2006]

For the people who have read Margaret Mitchell's book or seen the film "Gone With The Wind"(1938) would see past the easy attributed metaphor of "Miss Scarlett" on this thread of racism. They would have to actually dissect who Scarlett O'Hara was as a character.

One often forgets that Scarlett O'Hara was a strong-willed and determined woman. She was also a prima donna who connived and fought to get out of any situation dealt to her. She was determined to get Tara, her home, back.

At the same time, this strong-willed woman took part in a society which subjugated and enslaved other people. She is part and parcel of a power relationship. She was a "Slave Mistress". And she had slaves. And yes, she used the whip. This is a regretful, but integral part of her character.

But, in that characterization, we have to see the entire picture of what Scarlett O' Hara was.

She was also married three times (in the book) and twice (in the movie), I believe. And she had to fight the many stigmas against her in the Confederate South--especially when she (as Vivien Leigh) made a point of wearing red instead of mourning dress. She went against convention. And she did what she wanted to.

She could be petulant and endearing, but at the same time cross and unrepentant. And she didn't apologize at all for what she did or went through. And she sure as heck didn't feel any guilt.

As much as she represented the "typical Southern belle", her persona was one of always striving to get what she wanted out of life. She had a temper and she had faults. But in the end, she continued to gradually work toward her goals.

But simply because some would attribute "Miss Scarlett" to only race, tells me how little people think of the wider persona that Miss Scarlett was in the collective memories of popular culture.

I could have only referred to describing BH's character as a strong-willed, determined person after all. Because in the end, it is an issue of power here.

But also when you think of the larger issues of this thread, power is very much part and parcel of the discussion. If one looked closely, power issues are very much front and center of dealing with race relations. If all of you had looked at my post regarding the ettiquette of Jim Crow, this would be conveyed in the most stark and simplest terms for all to understand.


[edit on 29-8-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
For the people who have read Margaret Mitchell's book or seen the film "Gone With The Wind"(1938) would see past the easy attributed metaphor on this thread of racism.
:
But, in that characterization, we have to see the entire picture of what Scarlett O' Hara was.
:
But simply because some would attribute "Miss Scarlett" to only race, tells me how little people think of the wider persona that Miss Scarlett was in the collective memories of popular culture.

I could have only referred to describing BH's character as a strong-willed, determined person after all. Because in the end, it is an issue of power here.

Except that using the image of horse feces coming out of her mouth was inappropriate and crude.

So, we should accept this alternate portrayal of Miss Scarlett that you are trying to convey. The "entire picture".

Are you willing to grant the same consideration to the term "Tar Baby"?

I think that your services are best served on other threads for a while. I'm thinking about your sensitive and disturbed nature about this thread. You need to settle your nerves and talk amongst like-minded people as yourself. After all, with your "own ilk" on another thread you can be rest assured of being among "serious thinkers" and the most erudite discussion.

Don't worry. This is best. Do not concern yourself with this thread anymore with its "crude" and "crass" language.

Believe me, we can go on and do much more without your "astute" contributions--especially when it beats a dead horse.

Go on now. Doesn't Ray Nagin deserve all your attention on this first anniversary of Hurricane Katrina?




[edit on 29-8-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I think that your services are best served on other threads for a while. I'm thinking about your sensitive and disturbed nature about this thread. You need to settle your nerves and talk amongst like-minded people as yourself. After all, with your "own ilk" on another thread you can be rest assured of being among "serious thinkers" and the most erudite discussion.

Once again, with the insults, ceci. What is with the "your own ilk" comment"? Your tone is condescending and bitter. I thought you were going to take a hiatus from this thread. Did you somehow get "rejuvenated"?

And do not presume to tell me where and when I can post.

You have not addressed my previous question. The image of horse feces coming out of a mouth is acceptable, but reference to "Tar Baby" is not?

As for the Ray Nagin thread, why does that bother you so much? Did the fact that you brought it up not reap the results you desired?

[edit on 29-8-2006 by jsobecky]

Yes, I did get renewed. This is my thread and I'm here to stay. But I don't feel like dealing with your questions right now. There are enough like-minded people of your persuasion that will answer you and pat you on the back for what you said to me. That should be enough to sate you before you show your true colors once more.

No matter how condescending I sound to you, it does not equate to even half of the things you have said to and about me. I don't forget that easily. But I'm not carrying a grudge. Consider it indifference. Clearly you want to stay. That is of your free will.


However, I am entertaining other comments and questions from more courageous and forthright people who truly want to discuss this and aren't quite so disturbed by the frankness conversed here. It is time to move on and launch into this much needed discussion.

And my questions are as follows:

1)What can be used as "effective" communication in terms of understanding racial issues so that everything is clear (thanks to Blarney63 for bringing this up)?

2)What would make a difference in understanding the different sides of the race-relations debate? Since there is a clash of values, what can end it so that we can get to the middle ground?




[edit on 29-8-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Yes, I did get renewed. This is my thread and I'm here to stay. But I don't feel like dealing with your questions right now.

I have never seen you tackle a tough question before, so this doesn't surprise me.

There are enough like-minded people of your persuasion that will answer you and pat you on the back for what you said to me. That should be enough to sate you before you show your true colors once more.

What are my "true colors", ceci? Will you dodge that question also?

You're not interested in talking about racism. All you want to do is divide. First, you made a list of those who you see as "even-tempered, kind, sharp, intelligent posters". Then you categorize others as people of "my persuasion", my "ilk". What's the point of that?

A word of advice to those "even-tempered, kind, sharp, intelligent posters". I know that all of you are well-intentioned members. But you will remain an "even-tempered, kind, sharp, intelligent poster" only so long as you agree with the PC line. If you stray, you'll be categorized as part of "their ilk", whatever that means.

No matter how condescending I sound to you, it does not equate to even half of the things you have said to and about me. I don't forget that easily. But I'm not carrying a grudge. Consider it indifference. Clearly you want to stay. That is of your free will.

What have I said to or about you? I challenge you.

And yes, I will stay of my own free will. Not because you decided to "recognize the speaker" or "give someone the floor" or any other thing. Because, regardless of how you see yourself, you are not some type of facilitator.