What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

Since this was mentioned, I decided to concoct a list of "so-called" privileges experienced by Black people based on their treatment in society:

1)To be followed by a security guard when other people could be shop-lifting in a store.
2)To move into a neighborhood and start "white flight" due to the dropping of real estate values.
3)To pay for an expensive item and have the white clerk treat you like dirt because it is instantly thought that you don't have the money.
4)To graduate with top honors at school, yet thought of as being an "ignorant".
5)To be repeatedly asked at an office or an apartment building if you are part of the maintenance crew.
6)To be repeatedly asked at an expensive department store if you work there.
7)To be silent about your achievements. If you discuss them, the conversation is cut off.
8)To give 150 per-cent to your job, yet you see others less qualified than you promoted.
9)To honestly tell someone the truth, but because of the black stereotype of "crime" and "lying", that no one believes you.
10)To worry if hospitalized if you are receiving the best care possible.
11)To worry if on trial of receiving the best defense possible.
12)To not be able to move to any neighborhood of your choice.
13)To walk into an expensive restaurant and not be waited upon while watching others who arrived later than you get seated before you do.
14)To undergo bodily searches and interrogation at the airport or other important landmarks in the nation while others walk by, watch and shake their heads.
15)To be instantly thought of as a "thief", "a hooker", or a "drug dealer".
16)To be instantly thought of as unsucessful even though you're not.
17)To hear negative remarks and racial slurs and be told that it doesn't mean anything.
18)To hear others say they don't have guilt about the negative parts of your heritiage and cultural history.
19)To be accused of "screaming about race" and "crying for reparations" .
20)When discussing issues of cultural diversity, you get called "a nut with issues" or an "idiot".
21)To hear the groups that advocate on your behalf be equated with the KKK.
22)To be instantly thought of as shiftless and lazy.
23)To be associated with welfare even though the statistics say otherwise (more white people statistically are on welfare).
24)To not get a loan from the bank no matter whether you can pay it off or not.
25)To be told repeatedly members of your race did not work enough or pay their dues in their employment compared to other races.
26)To be instantly thought of as guilty despite of any facts afforded to the case.
27)To be talked down to and infantalized repeatedly because of white privilege.
28)To see the media constantly invalidate your race and repeat untrue, negative stereotypes because of the "fear factor".
29)To be automatically thought of as "hostile" and "aggressive" when angry.
30)To not have anyone be empathetic to your pain.
31)To constantly be told that your race didn't "contribute anything" to the history of your nation.
32)To be told outright that your race is hated without any good reason.
33)To have your race ridiculed and laughed at for no good reason.
34)To achieve the top score on a test, but the teacher thinks you've cheated.
35)You are teaching a class and the students disrepect you because of your race.
36)To be a victim of crime and not get the appropriate help from the authorities.
37)To be thought of as violent and bellicose.
38)To constantly be thought of as hating whites when that is not true.
39)To have others frightened of you for simply walking down the street or riding up an elevator.
40)To have other races cross the street clutching their purse or brief case in hand because of fear.
41)To walk by a car and instantly hear the doors lock and the see the windows close.
42)To be thought of as less achieving because of stereotypes.
43)To be thought of as less intelligent even though that is not the case.
44)To have others assume that they have more education than yourself automatically.
45)To constantly deal with others who can complain about your race, but won't understand your explainations regarding their inquiries.
46)To walk into a room filled with another race other than your own and have the room go silent to a pin drop.
47)When you speak, the conversation suddenly stops to listen to what you say.
48)People have a unwarranted right to be rude to you whereever you are.
49)To express an idea and be ridiculed.
50)To be instantly thought of as "singing", "dancing" and "having rhythm".
51)To express an unpopular opinon and face social isolation due to the displeasure of the dominant culture.
52)To be waited on poorly by a waiter or waitress at an expensive restaurant.
53)When angry, you have to hide your emotions in fear of upsetting other people.
54)To have to be cautious about everything instance you do because if you make a mistake you don't get a second chance.
55)To be told that a racial slur is okay because other people in your race "say it".
56)To be told that a racial slur is okay because of "different connotations" despite the fact that you know that the positive connotation is almost never used.
57)To sit in a classroom and be told that your people did not undergo genocide even though they did throughout history.
58)To be arrogantly told over and over again that "other people are better than you".
59)To see the issues important to your race constantly ignored in the media, in education and in government.
60)To see the things and holidays you value constantly derided and ridiculed by opinion makers, politicians and celebrities.
61)If you are a Black male, to be instantly thought of as a rapist even though you aren't.
62)By expressing a dissenting opinion, you are told that you are "disrupting the discussion" or "not contributing anything of worth".
63)To be instantly thought of as a victim when voicing concerns about your race.
64)To sit in a theatre or an auditorium and have an entire row to yourself.
65)To always worry about being arrested due to mistaken identity.

There's more "privileges" where they came from. I'll add a few more later.





[edit on 19-8-2006 by ceci2006]

And there are people in this world that aren't that courageous enough.

And there are some that are courageous and are doing exactly that.

It's not my intention to interupt the priviledge debate but I wanted to address something else. And I wouldn't mind exploring myself deeper with this issue. Nor is it my intention to be abrasive or insensitive.

I have noticed (or believe I have noticed) and am plagued myself with the stigma of racism over alot of white folk. I think that these people are often misunderstood as being racist or more so than they may be. It can be very uncomfortable in the
company of black folk sometimes, being white. Sometimes this uncomfortableness (that word was hard to type) can be IMO misinterepted as arrogance, which is a large element of racism. Sometimes you can sense the anger, resentment and disappointment in your company and that combined with the already present uncomfortableness is alot to deal with. Most people just try to get away; adding to the
misunderstanding. I think it's a terrible cycle. In fact I experienced today. It sucks and I deal with it.

A point to white priviledge. I was just thinking, and remember I agree that these priviledges exist, as a white folk, how does one know for certain they are recieving such a priviledge. Is it always when whites deal with whites, no exceptions? The only solid way I can think of knowing for sure is asking and/or being told you are. Take the workplace for example. If I'm offered a job, should one of the questions I ask be if they had interviewed a black applicant, and if that applicant was better suited for the position was I offered it because of being white? These are truly sincere questions.

Can someone answer why is it that 'white' or caucasian dominated nations are typically considered first world countries? And yet those dominated by other ethnicities are not? Could these nations possess what could be thought of as a progressive culture? I honestly believe that they do. Though there are exceptions, but generally that's how it seems to be at this time.
And I do not see myself as a racist, I only see a difference in the way of culture. And yes I have my opinions about it as well...

Originally quoted by nextguyinlineIt's not my intention to interupt the priviledge debate but I wanted to address something else. And I wouldn't mind exploring myself deeper with this issue. Nor is it my intention to be abrasive or insensitive.

Don't worry about it, nextguyinline. The focus of the conversation is honesty. Sometimes we all (judging from the last few pages) can be abrasive, but it is because we are passionate about the subject matter.

I have noticed (or believe I have noticed) and am plagued myself with the stigma of racism over alot of white folk. I think that these people are often misunderstood as being racist or more so than they may be. It can be very uncomfortable in the company of black folk sometimes, being white. Sometimes this uncomfortableness (that word was hard to type) can be IMO misinterepted as arrogance, which is a large element of racism. Sometimes you can sense the anger, resentment and disappointment in your company and that combined with the already present uncomfortableness is alot to deal with. Most people just try to get away; adding to the
misunderstanding. I think it's a terrible cycle. In fact I experienced today. It sucks and I deal with it.

It is not just around Black folk. I think that you feel that way around anyone that is different than yourself. I truly believe that you have to make an effort to cut the tension by being yourself and exuding friendliness.

Above that, I understand your uneasiness. I have felt it among white folk on many occasions. Although I do not sense a hostility so much for myself being there; instead it is just quiet, arrogant indifference. Those situations are rather intimidating. But, I just have to wing it sometimes and just make myself known. Sometimes it works. Other times it doesn't. Just don't show fear.

Now, this isn't the case when I am among people I know. When I am the only black in a group of white people I know in the "real world", I still feel a bit uneasy (that is because I am not very vocal. And plus, I am shy.)but, we are able to to have fun and talk because they know me. And I am respected and welcomed. That is the difference.

It does suck. But to be honest, you have to just get out there and talk to people. There will be others that will talk to you. And then, that will eliminate some of the misgivings that others have.

I don't think that simply because you are just a "white person in a room" that other Black people are so hateful, resentful and angry. I think that sometimes you have to put your perceptions on the shelf and just go for it. That's what I do when I go into different neighborhoods and experience other cultures. I ask questions. I make conversations with people. And, focus on commonalities. My advice would be to not focus on the negative aspects of being the only person of your race in a room. Use as a way to build a bridge.

Unless...there was a focused attempt of hostility there against you. Then...that would be different. But to me, it sounds that no one asked you to leave.

A point to white priviledge. I was just thinking, and remember I agree that these priviledges exist, as a white folk, how does one know for certain they are recieving such a priviledge.

Imho, it has to do with treatment. Would you notice if you see someone of your own race walk into a restaurant and gets immediately seated while there has been people of color waiting a long time before they came? Or have you ever witnessed white people grab their belongings as if to squeeze them to death when Blacks walk by? Have you constantly witnessed in the media that more positive images belong to your own race than of other races? Have you ever wondered why gated communities house more whites than any other color? Why do you think that is so?

White privilege existed historically in a more blatant sense than in the present day. Today, it is subtle. In the past, rules and ettiquette (see the post about racial ettiqute and Jim Crow) dictated the difference in treatment between people of color and whites. Presently, the ettiquette still goes on. Whites are given more leeway when it comes to crime, jobs and social mobility. It is even dictated by the service you get.

Is it always when whites deal with whites, no exceptions?

Not always. Of course, whites sometimes treat whites with better service opposed to other races. However, other races who are complicit with the dominant culture will treat whites better as well because of the fear of the white customer going after their job or complaining about their service. Other races who are complicit with white privilege will also treat whites as "better customers" because they buy into the negative stereotypes regarding their own or different races other than the dominant culture.

There are more white models displaying fashion because of the "beauty aesthetic" related to blonde hair and blue eyes. White bosses use their superiority over their employees who are a different race when it comes to job performance because the stereotypes are there. Imagine having a boss with the mentality that Blacks are lazy, uneducated, don't like to work and "ask for social handouts". How can a Black employee work and be promoted under a boss who thinks like that?

Or, look at the JonBenet Ramsey case highlighted in the news. Why do you think the media is focused upon her? Why do you think they call her a "little beauty queen"? Would they afford that same type of thinking for a Black child who was murdered in the same way?

The only solid way I can think of knowing for sure is asking and/or being told you are. Take the workplace for example. If I'm offered a job, should one of the questions I ask be if they had interviewed a black applicant, and if that applicant was better suited for the
position was I offered it because of being white? These are truly sincere questions.

I know it is sincere because these are all issues we are trying to work through despite the amount of emotionality attached to them.

But, I think you are right with your hypothetical question. If you were offered the job because you were white and thought of as a "harder worker", "having a solid background more conducive to the workplace" and "having merits and qualifications" despite the fact, the boss was using his "white privilege" in choosing you as an employee. You were using your "white privilege" as an applicant to be more suitable for the job because of your race--especially if the other Black applicant was truly more qualified on his/her resume than yours.










[edit on 19-8-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Take the workplace for example. If I'm offered a job, should one of the questions I ask be if they had interviewed a black applicant, and if that applicant was better suited for the position was I offered it because of being white? These are truly sincere questions.

I would definitely say no, you should not ask that question of your interviewer.

You would be viewed as a potential troublemaker.
No employer would ever admit to doing it.
No ethical employer would discuss another job candidate with a prospective employee.
It would open up the company for a potential lawsuit.

Your intent might be to portray yourself as a particular type of employee. But I'm afraid it would have the opposite effect.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I decided to concoct a list of "so-called" privileges experienced by Black people based on their treatment in society...

Well, I got about half way down your list and knowing that I have experienced about half of the ones I read, I can't give much credence to it as a 'black-only' thing. These are things people experience. You insist on separation by race. But if you need to think that only blacks experience them, you go right on.

It's really sad to get a glimpse of the mindset that some black people have about the "privileged white people". It reminds me of the 'grass is always greener' scenario. I only wish you could have the experience of being white for a while. It would be real interesting to see what you learned about 'this side of the fence'.

From 1991:

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the proportion of black professionals and managers has doubled since 1960; also, black poverty - as measured by the joint Center for Political and Economic Studies - has declined by nearly one-half.

Racial prejudice will probably always exist in some form. But more and more blacks today realize that discrimination is no excuse for failure.

"Whitey's not holding blacks down," says John H. Johnson, founder of Johnson Publishing Co. "It is the fear of failure that gets in the way."
...
Marcus Aurelius said, "A man's life is what his thoughts make of it."

Source

What you focus on is where your life will lead you. No matter what color your skin is. You can have whatever you want in this life. Regardless of roadblocks.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Well, I got about half way down your list and knowing that I have experienced about half of the ones I read, I can't give much credence to it as a 'black-only' thing. These are things people experience. You insist on separation by race. But if you need to think that only blacks experience them, you go right on.

Me too. Some of them are just incredible, like this one:

64)To sit in a theatre or an auditorium and have an entire row to yourself.

Geez, I'd love to be discriminated against like that! Matter of fact, I'd be satisfied with having the seat in front of and in back of me empty!

I bolded the changes I made so they'd be appropriate to me, but here are the ones out of the first 25 that I have experienced (I could also add more, btw):

1)To be followed by a security guard when other people could be shop-lifting in a store.
3)To pay for an expensive item and have the [black] clerk treat you like dirt because it is instantly thought that you don't [deserve to] have the money.
4)To graduate with top honors at school, yet thought of as being an "ignorant".
7)To be silent about your achievements. If you discuss them, the conversation is cut off.
8)To give 150 per-cent to your job, yet you see others less qualified than you promoted.
10)To worry if hospitalized if you are receiving the best care possible.
(I went 5 days without a gown change or a bath - AFTER the non-white doctor did his butcher job on me)…
12)To not be able to move to any neighborhood of your choice.
13)To walk into an expensive restaurant and not be waited upon while watching others who arrived later than you get seated before you do.
14)To undergo bodily searches and interrogation at the airport or other important landmarks in the nation while others walk by, watch and shake their heads.
16)To be instantly thought of as unsuccessful even though you're not.
21)To hear the groups that advocate on your behalf be equated with the KKK.
24)To not get a loan from the bank no matter whether you can pay it off or not.

The difference is that you, Ceci, attribute this treatment to race. I just know that these things happen, people are sometimes mean, stupid, and jerks and I realize that I cannot control other people's behavior, neither am I entitled to. I am not owed perfect treatment. And yes, some are because of race. Your race AND my race.

Did I say that racism exists yet? Because if I forgot to mention it, I want to be clear on that now.

Originally posted by ceci2006

I have noticed (or believe I have noticed) and am plagued myself with the stigma of racism over alot of white folk. I think that these people are often misunderstood as being racist or more so than they may be. It can be very uncomfortable in the company of black folk sometimes, being white. Sometimes this uncomfortableness (that word was hard to type) can be IMO misinterepted as arrogance, which is a large element of racism. Sometimes you can sense the anger, resentment and disappointment in your company and that combined with the already present uncomfortableness is alot to deal with. Most people just try to get away; adding to the
misunderstanding. I think it's a terrible cycle. In fact I experienced today. It sucks and I deal with it.

It is not just around Black folk. I think that you feel that way around anyone that is different than yourself. I truly believe that you have to make an effort to cut the tension by being yourself and exuding friendliness.

It is definately just around Black folk. Mexicans haven't had the history of Blacks in this country, nor any others. So I don't think the stigma is there. Native Americans? I live in Nebraska and let me put it this way, I've never seen a Native American family sitting in a restaurant. EVER.

And I'm always myself Good advice. Have you experienced any situations where your black friends or community members have spoken to this effect to other black folk?

Above that, I understand your uneasiness. I have felt it among white folk on many occasions. Although I do not sense a hostility so much for myself being there; instead it is just quiet, arrogant indifference. Those situations are rather intimidating. But, I just have to wing it sometimes and just make myself known. Sometimes it works. Other times it doesn't. Just don't show fear.

Thank you for the qualification.

Now, this isn't the case when I am among people I know. When I am the only black in a group of white people I know in the "real world", I still feel a bit uneasy (that is because I am not very vocal. And plus, I am shy.)but, we are able to to have fun and talk because they know me. And I am respected and welcomed. That is the difference.

Sure. Same thing with me. But even sometimes in their company certain situations cause an uneasyness. Being men, we tend to shy away from emotional stress, so I can see how my friends and I may not be able communicate as effectively as as women might be able to. I don't have and never had any black women friends. Don't know why, just is, so I don't know if we could communicate better during those situations.

It does suck. But to be honest, you have to just get out there and talk to people. There will be others that will talk to you. And then, that will eliminate some of the misgivings that others have.

I want to be clear that I'm not a recluse Good advice again, but I spent the last
15 years in customer service and I am moderately social, so interaction with people is not lacking over here.

I don't think that simply because you are just a "white person in a room" that other Black people are so hateful, resentful and angry. I think that sometimes you have to put your perceptions on the shelf and just go for it. That's what I do when I go into different neighborhoods and experience other cultures. I ask questions. I make conversations with people. And, focus on commonalities. My advice would be to not focus on the negative aspects of being the only person of your race in a room. Use as a way to build a bridge.

It's not just being in the room, it's trying to communicate. I'll explain my experience yesterday. I was in a photographers studio picking up some photos for the magazine. There was approximately 3 or 4 whites at the counter and/or sitting. There was approximately 6 blacks sitting. I asked the first white girl next to me who was sitting if they were waiting to be helped. I then asked the black girl sitting next to her. Now before I asked, all 6 or so the black folk, who may have been friends, were having a pretty good time, talking, laughing and what have you. As soon as I addressed the girl, everyone's attitude changed to what I interepted as 'whitey, what are you doing talking to me?' ALL of them. No smiles, just pursed lips, raised eyebrows and glances at each other. I don't know, take it as it is.

Unless...there was a focused attempt of hostility there against you. Then...that would be different. But to me, it sounds that no one asked you to leave.

No, I wasn't asked to leave. Nor was I given the impression staying was ok too.

:edit to say I am 'not' a recluse.






[edit on 19-8-2006 by nextguyinline]

Cultural inertia. Most of us pass though life avoiding issues which do not directly effect us or that seem insurmountable. The majority has little time to spare commiserating with those who may have legitimate complaints but for which the solutions are neither readily apparent nor likely to be of very low cost to fix. Cost benefit analysis. Those who have arrived or who hold the upper hand see very little benefit for them, even if the cost is low and stands to payback with dividends. That’s future talk and we prefer now talk. Make me feel good today.

I have condemned the Sprint tv ad depicting a lanky black guy who had climbed to the top of a file cabinet and assumed a very unlikely position for most of us muscle bound types. It was straight out of 1992's “White Men Can’t Jump” movie. I found the portrayal by the black actor to be racially demeaning.

I have condemned the Oreo cookie eaters. The grandmother and child licking a cookie in public, something well-mannered people would not do. But, as they were black, so do they have good manners? Again, racially demeaning in the circumstances.

I have condemned the GEICO ad where the white woman has an accident and calls for help. Sitting beside her is a black comedian who is probably well known to the audience but not to me because I only watch History Channel and CSpan2. The black man was making exaggerated repetitious comments based on the white lady’s lead. Again, racially demeaning.

In none of the above would the ads have employed all white actors because the ads were taking advantage of a caricature well known in the white world and still capable of conveying humor - to whites.

PS to Mr JB: When I say something is racially offensive, take my word for it.



[edit on 8/19/2006 by donwhite]

A point to white priviledge. I was just thinking, and remember I agree that these priviledges exist, as a white folk, how does one know for certain they are recieving such a priviledge.

Imho, it has to do with treatment. Would you notice if you see someone of your own race walk into a restaurant and gets immediately seated while there has been people of color waiting a long time before they came?

No, not specifically, but I've seen people get seated and served before me, after I have been waiting along time. Sometimes friends and family get those priviledges.
Sometime people just make mistakes.

Or have you ever witnessed white people grab their belongings as if to squeeze them to death when Blacks walk by?

Sometimes. But only when the black folk walking are homeless or quite obviously ghetto. I've witnessed black folk do the same thing. I've witnessed white folk do it when other white folk walk by who quite obviously are homeless or look ghetto.

Have you constantly witnessed in the media that more positive images belong to your own race than of other races?

I just don't believe that it happens to the degree it may have once did.

Have you ever wondered why gated communities house more whites than any other color? Why do you think that is so?

No, it's simple. More whites can afford the homes in those gated communities. Believe me, the people in those homes live behind their gates not to protect them from the big bad black people. It's the big bad teen and pre-teens who are out experiencing the world without much understanding of respect. Have you ever met a family from one of those homes. They are all registered here on ATS. Most are just unreasonably paranoid.

I'll try and get to the rest later.

The black man was making exaggerated repetitious comments based on the white lady’s lead. Again, racially demeaning

Trust me, there is nothing demeaning about that commercial. That's Little Richard

:edit: just wanted to finish with... whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[edit on 19-8-2006 by nextguyinline]

Originally posted by donwhite
Those who have arrived or who hold the upper hand see very little benefit for them, even if the cost is low and stands to payback with dividends. That’s future talk and we prefer now talk. Make me feel good today.

I agree with you. Most people are primarily interested in benefiting themselves first. Take care of number one. Rarely do regualr people make a huge lifetime commitment to the greater good. They do exist (Mother Thersa- types) but they are rare. As long as my life is taking my attention to keep it going well, I'm not too inclined to look around for someone else's life I can fix. I have plenty to work on in my own.

I have condemned the Sprint tv ad depicting a lanky black guy who had climbed to the top of a file cabinet and assumed a very unlikely position for most of us muscle bound types.

So, you think white people aren't portrayed as being in odd or uncomfortable, funny, awkward positions on TV? Have you heard of Earnest?

How's this for awkward?
Bugle Boy Jeans Ad

I have condemned the Oreo cookie eaters. The grandmother and child licking a cookie in public, something well-mannered people would not do.

Again, you don't think white people are portrayed as having bad manners in public? People have been licking the center of the Oreos for as long as I can remember... "How do you eat an Oreo?" used to be their slogan. I submit that you are upset by the ad simply because the actors are black.

A White woman Licking the Center of an Oreo Cookie

There's a difference between making a statement, purposely using black people to portray a certain idea (racism), and having the actor in an ad be black by simple happenstance. The grandma and child could have been any color but then people would complain that there weren't any blacks in Oreo commercials. You're looking too hard for racism. It really does exist, but don't manufacture it where there is none. There's plenty of legitimate racism around. We don't need to call every commercial with a black person in it racism.

Have you looked at the TV shows starring all black people? And you're upset because they look silly or stupid in a little ad?

I have condemned the GEICO ad where the white woman has an accident and calls for help.

The fact that you only watch C-SPAN and the History channel pretty much explains why you don't see the plethora of commercials and shows that make fun of ALL people. I submit that you are super sensitive to black people in commercials. You apparently look for ways to condemn the advertising world when they do choose to use black actors.

In none of the above would the ads have employed all white actors because the ads were taking advantage of a caricature well known in the white world and still capable of conveying humor - to whites.

That's just not true.

PS to Mr JB: When I say something is racially offensive, take my word for it.

Offense is a subjective thing. Nothing is inherently offensive. It depends on the observer if they find something offensive or not.

Here's a commercial where the smart black man tells all the dumb white people about grapefruit juice.

Another Interesting Commercial

The black man is the star, he's in control, he's clearly confident and all the people around him (white, black and Asian) are baffled by him. I'd be interested to hear what you think is wrong with this one.

Yeah, white people never look like fools in ads.

Another normal black man, crazy white man.

Meet Bob:


I could go on all day, but I won't. We see what we want to see. I see advertisers trying to have more variety of actors in their ads because it is in demand. You see them making fun of the black people.

[edit on 19-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by donwhite
I have condemned the Sprint tv ad depicting a lanky black guy who had climbed to the top of a file cabinet and assumed a very unlikely position for most of us muscle bound types. It was straight out of 1992's “White Men Can’t Jump” movie. I found the portrayal by the black actor to be racially demeaning.

But I'll bet you think that the title to that movie is perfectly acceptable, right?

I have condemned the Oreo cookie eaters. The grandmother and child licking a cookie in public, something well-mannered people would not do. But, as they were black, so do they have good manners? Again, racially demeaning in the circumstances.

Pffft. There are plenty of ads which depict white men (always the white guy) eating and making a fool of himself. Like the guy at the cookout that burns his tongue on the grill. Or the many beer commercials which portray them as pot-bellied slobs.

Are those commercials OK in your eyes, donwhite?

And only a certain type of person would find an granny enjoying an Oreo moment with her granddaughter offensive.

I have condemned the GEICO ad where the white woman has an accident and calls for help. Sitting beside her is a black comedian who is probably well known to the audience but not to me because I only watch History Channel and CSpan2. The black man was making exaggerated repetitious comments based on the white lady’s lead. Again, racially demeaning.

It's a spoof that GEICO is using these days, pairing up a nobody with a celebrity to speak for them. Little Richard was used, but so was Charo in another ad.

PS to Mr JB: When I say something is racially offensive, take my word for it.

Most things that people would find inocent are offensive to you, donwhite, because I think you look for offense, and classify everything as racism. As I mentioned before, you have stated that every white person born after a certain date is racist, and that Republicans are all racists. Your mind and attitude are closed, and no progress can be made as long as you harbor those misconceptions.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when you meet a) a black person, and later b) a white person. Total strangers, but I'll bet your demeanor and attitude change perceptibly in the two situations.

posted by Benevolent Heretic
I agree with you. Most people are primarily interested in benefitting themselves first. They exist Mother Theresa types) but are rare. I have plenty to work on in my own. [Edited by Don W]

I followed the links you gave but several of them were “denied” to me. One, on junkfoods, worked and I have learned a new resource today. Thanks. The others by the way, were loaded with spam!

I read your counter-points regarding my earlier opinions on each ad, and can add nothing more. Your feel your way, I feel my way . .

You're looking too hard for racism. It really does exist, but don't manufacture it where there is none. Have you looked at the TV shows starring all black people? And you're upset because they look silly or stupid in a little ad? The fact that you only watch C-SPAN and the History channel pretty much explains why you don't see the plethora of commercials and shows that make fun of ALL people. I submit that you are super sensitive to black people That's just not true. [Edited by Don W]

I submit you are right.

BH, I have read your comments and I still think that you are not getting the picture. If you don't believe me, believe HH when she says that these things are reality. But, nevertheless, let me answer your comments:

Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

Well, I got about half way down your list and knowing that I have experienced about half of the ones I read, I can't give much credence to it as a 'black-only' thing. These are things people experience. You insist on separation by race. But if you need to think that only blacks experience them, you go right on.

I have never said that. But you did.

It's really sad to get a glimpse of the mindset that some black people have about the "privileged white people". It reminds me of the 'grass is always greener' scenario. I only wish you could have the experience of being white for a while. It would be real interesting to see what you learned about 'this side of the fence'.

It's really sad that you don't understand these things happen daily to a lot of Black folk. It reminds me of "racial denial" because of white syndrome. I really wish that you would have the experience of being black for a while. It would be real interesting to see what you actually learned about 'this side of the fence' instead of giving lip service to denial.

What you focus on is where your life will lead you. No matter what color your skin is. You can have whatever you want in this life. Regardless of roadblocks.

Yes, I suppose you can have everything you want in this world. I truly believe it. But when other forces out of my control block what I want, I just can't discuss it and find redress for it because no one wants to feel guilty.

That is what you are telling me.

1)To be followed by a security guard when other people could be shop-lifting in a store.

I'd be interested to hear that story. Did he stop you and interrogate you why you were there? I'd be hard pressed to believe you if it were a white officer.

3)To pay for an expensive item and have the [black] clerk treat you like dirt because it is instantly thought that you don't [deserve to] have the money.

I doubt that. Yesterday, I bought a truly expensive item from a brand name store. The tone of the white clerk changed to sharpness when I whipped out my money and paid for it. And he still asked for ID. Have any ID checks lately by a white clerk--for paying cash?

4)To graduate with top honors at school, yet thought of as being an "ignorant".

I seriously doubt this one too. But anything's possible. A lot of people made comments regarding the intelligence of Black people. They are all over this board.

7)To be silent about your achievements. If you discuss them, the conversation is cut off.

Really? With other white people who are just as intelligent as you are? This is full of doubt, but I 'd have to hear the story.

8)To give 150 per-cent to your job, yet you see others less qualified than you promoted.

This is actually possible. But on my job, I've witnessed a blonde, young thing with nothing upstairs flounce her way up to the boss, sleep with him and get promoted. So what does that teach me? When you have bottle-blonde hair and a silicone rack, you can sleep with anyone and go up the job ladder. I wonder why that is.

I further ask, why is it that some white women marry their bosses? I don't think intellecutal "merits" count here--unless it is in the bedroom.

10)To worry if hospitalized if you are receiving the best care possible.
(I went 5 days without a gown change or a bath - AFTER the non-white doctor did his butcher job on me)…

I was in the hosptital for pnemonia for three weeks. The white nurse that treated me repeatedly "forgot" to change my anti-biotics. She also forgot to bathe me and change my gown. Her mistake would have killed me if my parents didn't protest to the head nurse and the doctor (also white). At first, "they didn't see anything wrong".

But thank goodness, I had insurance.

12)To not be able to move to any neighborhood of your choice.

For you, my dear, this is a money issue. Not a color issue. I doubt the white soccer moms would want to drive you out because you represent a threat to the neighborhood due to crime and "loud music".

But, if any of the neighbors or their kids ever called you the n-word to your face, I'd love to hear it.

13)To walk into an expensive restaurant and not be waited upon while watching others who arrived later than you get seated before you do.

Again, this is a color issue....unless you act uncouth in public. Did you have an hootenanny in front of the maitre'd?

14)To undergo bodily searches and interrogation at the airport or other important landmarks in the nation while others walk by, watch and shake their heads.

This may be so. But I've experienced this more than most. And I had to remove everything from my carry-on to top it off. I've witnessed other people of color do the same repeatedly. But, I guess there's a cell of "white" terrorists" in this world--especially if they worship Osama bin Laden.

16)To be instantly thought of as unsuccessful even though you're not.

Hell. It's a factor of life--even on these boards. The first thing out of some posters' mouths are about how unsuccessful some black people are. Ask your cohort, jsobecky.

21)To hear the groups that advocate on your behalf be equated with the KKK.

Really? Which ones? I could at least say that for a fact regarding the Urban League, UNCF and the NAACP. Not unless you feel you are being advocated by the KKK....

24)To not get a loan from the bank no matter whether you can pay it off or not.

This has happened to Black people. Why don't you see many black businesses around? Why do you think they are owned by people of other races?

The difference is that you, Ceci, attribute this treatment to race. I just know that these things happen, people are sometimes mean, stupid, and jerks and I realize that I cannot control other people's behavior, neither am I entitled to. I am not owed perfect treatment. And yes, some are because of race. Your race AND my race.

For this I agree. What I listed describes treatment by race. And no matter how "ridiculous" it is, it happens. Sometimes it does happen to other people outside my race. I'm not denying that. But how to measure it is by repetition and virulence. I'm sorry for what happened to you in the hospital. But even that does not begin to scratch the surface of the worry that myself and other Black people feel when we get a cold or something worse. There is a belief in my family that once you enter a hospital, you don't come out. And that is not just a saying. I've had family members die because of the lack of care they received.

But, I am glad that you acknowledged that these things happened because of race. That is why it is better to listen and ask questions instead of trying to disprove it. HH and myself are trying to tell you of our experiences and why we think this is so. We are both being candid so you can understand us. We are not saying this because we are hostile or angry toward White people. But people immediately think this is so. I wonder why.

For the most part, I'm not an angry person. I'm pretty much easy going. But I get irritated by the lack of respect that others have about my experiences concerning the disparity of treatment. And if I do express irritation at the system because of these things, it is because of constant, continuous poor treatment. I feel insulted by the fact you said my parents taught me to be resentful and hateful of white people. My parents have helped others of all races their entire lives. They have never turned down anyone who needed help because they are kind, humble and generous people. They have taught that same generous and depth of feeling to my sister and myself. If I didn't feel that I couldn't help people of all races, I wouldn't have set up this thread.

For the most part, my parents do not have this "so called anger" because some of their oldest friends are white. I've grown up around white people. I've dealt with them my entire life. But yes, I cannot truly know what white people are like because I am not white.

But at the same time, my mother and father are not blind to what happens to black folk in society. They survived segregation and the civil rights era. They underwent some of the harshest treatment in the South and still have an affinity to help anyone they can. They spend their retirement helping the community. That is a testament to their character.

I just think there is truly a problem in understanding the things that Blacks go through. And it is especially sad that you just won't take the experiences as they are instead of spinning them towards "everyone experiences the same things". I listed about sixty "so called privileges" because they exist and they happen. It's a sad thing that they do. But they occur.


P.S. nextguyinline, I will answer your questions later.




[edit on 20-8-2006 by ceci2006]

posted by Ceci2006

I just think there is truly a problem in understanding the things that Blacks go through. I listed about sixty "so called privileges" because they exist and they happen. It's a sad thing that they do. But they do occur. [Edited by Don W]

Are African Americans perfect? By all means, no. but they do have some traits of character I found very interesting. For 17 yeas I worked in a lawyer’s office. I must have interviewed 1,500 to 2,000 clients and potential clients. I was the person-in-between the customer and the provider. The worst of all possible jobs. Like a foreman in a factory. You get it from both ends until you finally realize y0u are earning more than you are being paid. Then you move on.

The blacks I interviewed never evaluated a person by their physical appearance, what he or she wore, where he or she lived, or by how much money he or she had. Whites, OTOH, seemed to have no other standards to measure a person’s worth. The first words, "he/she is good looking!" And it got worse from there. Never did I hear, “trustworthy,” or “reliable” or “generous.” I find that both curious and revealing.

Condensed Into two words, Ceci, it is “selfishness” versus “selflessness.”



[edit on 8/20/2006 by donwhite]

You will never stop people being racist but at least we can stop the authorities being racist. Stop treating people based on the colour of their skin and stop being racist against whites because all that does is fuel anger against minorities and makes things worse.

Originally posted by ceci2006
If you don't believe me, believe HH when she says that these things are reality.

I have NEVER denied that. Show me where I did.

It's really sad that you don't understand these things happen daily to a lot of Black folk.

Again, I never said they didn't. Show me.

I just can't discuss it and find redress for it because no one wants to feel guilty.

That is what you are telling me.

You can discuss it all you want, but I am not going to feel guilty because I haven't done anything. I treat black people (and people of all races) with respect. I treat them no differently than I treat white people. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. You have not convinced me that I am guilty, nor have you convinced me that I should feel guilty for something I have not done.

I doubt that.
...
I seriously doubt this one too.
...
Really? ... This is full of doubt, but I 'd have to hear the story.

I don't have any interest in proving these to you or telling you the story. I don't care if you believe me. I don't lie.

I'm 48 years old. I have lived on the streets, I have been raped, I have stood by my mother as she died, I have lost a baby, I have been beaten. I have experienced things I hope you will never know about or experience yourself and I don't need your belief or validation about my experiences.

I have NOT ONCE doubted your experiences or indicated in any way that I thought you were lying.

Again, this is a color issue....unless you act uncouth in public. Did you have an hootenanny in front of the maitre'd?

This just shows how your mind works. You think all white people are treated a certain way and I've been trying to tell you for 13 pages that you're mistaken and you refuse to believe me. My 'whiteness' does not guarantee respect.

16)To be instantly thought of as unsuccessful even though you're not.

Hell. It's a factor of life--even on these boards.

Exactly. It's a fact of life, not race. That was my point.

I've had family members die because of the lack of care they received.

I'm sorry. My very best girlfriend of 25 years died last year because of improper and unattentive treatment. My young niece died 2 years ago, 4 days after giving birth to her baby because she got a staph infection in the hospital. They were both white.

That is why it is better to listen and ask questions instead of trying to disprove it.

If you don't want people to talk back, maybe you should write a book instead of enter into a discussion where there may be interaction, response and feedback, especially if you don't want an argument or dissent.

I'm not trying to disprove or deny your experience, I'm just saying that many times (not always) it's not a uniquely black experience. I'm trying to prove that these things happen more widely and not just for reasons of race. And I'm trying to say that racism happens. Classism happens. It's a part of life. You can get hung up on it and be a victim of it (as can I) or you can move through it.

I feel insulted by the fact you said my parents taught me to be resentful and hateful of white people.
...
They survived segregation and the civil rights era. They underwent some of the harshest treatment in the South

I didn't say your parents were evil or anything. I just know that I picked up racism from my parents and I remember the moment I realized that they were wrong about black people. I assumed that you picked up at least part of how you feel about white people from your parents. I apologize if this assumption is incorrect.

My mother was a very generous and loving person also, she was just ignorant about race and therefore held some beliefs and attitudes that I disagree with. Just because a person is racist doesn't mean they're evil. They're usually just ignorant or afraid.

And it is especially sad that you just won't take the experiences as they are instead of spinning them towards "everyone experiences the same things".

I'm not denying the experiences! I know they happen. I've seen them happen. I have experienced some of the very things you listed, not because of who I was but because I was with a black person. (I didn't list those as my personal experiences). I'm trying to put things in perspective. That doesn't mean I'm denying your experiences.

Just because I don't fall down in guilt doesn't mean I don't believe you. I do. I have eyes. I'm a sensitive, loving, caring person. Why would I have been fighting racism for 30 years if I didn't believe and SEE these things happen???

I'm not responding the way you would like. I'm not taking on responsibility for your experience. I'm not guilty for how you are treated in your life. But that doesn't mean I think you're lying!

I am responsible for how I treat people and that's it! And I treat people equally, without regard to race, class, gender or sexual orientation. I'm not responsible for how all white people act any more than I am responsible for how all brown-eyed people act, any more than you are responsible for how all black people act. You want me to take on guilt for 'whitey' and I refuse.

That's why this argument continues.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by donwhite
The blacks I interviewed never evaluated a person by their physical appearance, what he or she wore, where he or she lived, or by how much money he or she had. Whites, OTOH, seemed to have no other standards to measure a person’s worth. The first words, "he/she is good looking!" And it got worse from there. Never did I hear, “trustworthy,” or “reliable” or “generous.” I find that both curious and revealing.

Condensed Into two words, Ceci, it is “selfishness” versus “selflessness.”

[sarcasm]
Wow! All black people must be selfless then and all white people must be selfish...

Black people ARE better than white people!

What does that mean then when every drug pusher, pimp and gang member I've ever met has been black and every preacher, doctor and firefighter I've met are white???
[/sarcasm]