People like us

Originally posted by subz
I've never been called an anti-muslim because I denounce Hezbollah's attacks on Israeli civilians. But I have been called anti-semitic when I say Israel has no right to kill Palestinians or occupy their land.

I completely understand your frustration. It is not right to label anyone with names simply because of a difference in opinion. Unfortunately when Israel was formed, the British had control of Palestine. As unjust as it may seem, they had the 'legal' right (though I acknowledge that some settlements were formed illegaly) to do with that land whatever they wanted. They chose to give it to the Jews, who chose to return to Palestine,....their ancestral home. This, of course gives no one the right to kill anyone, but legaly speaking,... most Jews had a 'legal' right to that land as much as the Palestinians.

I just realized something. Posters are criticizing either Hezbollah (a group of people) or Israel (an entire country, which is clearly mostly populated by Jews). Maybe that is why some posters heat up over this issue. While some blame a particular group of Muslims (as opposed to all Muslims), others seem to blame an entire nation of people for what is happening. Does that make sense? I think we all know that not all Jews living in Israel dislike/don't sympathize with the Palestinians, just as not all Muslims dislike/don't sympathize with Israeli Jews. Maybe we should be more clear about who we criticize? In example,.. IDF, Olmert, Extremist Zionists, etc. etc. Just an idea.

I stand by my accusations against Israel and its war crimes. They are well documented. But as you acknowledge this is a thread directed at people who criticize Israel being fobbed off as simply anti-semitic. There are plenty of threads regarding crimes committed by Hezbollah and Hamas.

I don't doubt that Israel's Government is responsible for war crimes. I acknowledge that it is a member among many nations who have comitted terrible crimes against their perceived enemies. Again, I agree that there are plenty of threads about the evils of Hezbollah and Hamas.

This is the first thing I disagree with you on. The conflict goes back to 1947 and the formation of a Jewish state on land already belonging to Palestinian Arabs........ Up until the 1940's the small percentage of Jews who lived in Palestine cohabitated with the Arabs peacefully.

I have to admitt, there are more twists and turns in this damned conflict than there are in a bowl of spaghetti. Here is a good summary to illustrate my point:Wikipedia: History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
Frankly it looks like Britain could be blamed for igniting this stick of dynamite in 1880. Of course many Jewish settlers and many extremist Muslims could be blamed for allowing this to continue. I can't side with one and not the other. As I've said before, everyone is to blame, and everyone has blood on their hands.
This is an informative website as well:
In a Nutshell: Israeli Palestinian Conflict

Well since public opinion in the West strongly favours Israel I would stand by my claim to be in the minority

Until a poll is conducted, I obviously can't claim one way or the other with any certainty. From observations,... while the highly Christian populations around the world would side with Israel for religious reasons, the world is a big place, and aside from the U.S. I don't see any other nation claiming to stand behind Israel. So, while questioning Israel places you into the minority within the U.S., in the context of the whole world, your opinion of Israel is shared by a major part of the world in my opinion. That's not to be taken as absolute fact, I'm just basing it on what I hear and read.

That is my stance in a nut shell. I am against civilian casualties on both sides. Period.

I understand the differences here. Hitler was a threat to the Europe and the World. The same cannot be said for the Palestinian people. They are not even a threat to the Israeli state.....The violence aimed at Israel is a product of the Israeli illegal occupation of Palestine. Therefore claiming Israel's struggle against Palestinians is akin to the struggle against Hitler is arse-about logic.

I didn't mean to imply that Palestinians are a threat to the world, and certainly didn't mean to compare them to Hitler. I only used WW II. as an example for the casualties suffered by all sides due to war, that's all. There was a reason to go to war, we bombed enemy targets, and unintentionally bombed civilians in the process. It wasn't 'right', but war is ugly, and war causes death on all sides,...wanted or unwanted. The example was only to show that in every war (just or unjust) we will have civilian casualties. Technology today is much better than during WW II. but it is far from perfect. Most times it is impossible to avoid any civilian casualties. Whether or not the IDF is doing their best to do so can't be determined by any of us who aren't there to see it first-hand.

The Palestinians are resisting an illegal occupation and the Israelis are illegally occupying and slowly ethnically cleansing Palestine of its original inhabitants.

That is a debatable subject with many sides to consider. Not all Jews would like to see Muslims die, and not all Muslims would like to see Jews die. Some occupy the land legally, and some occupy it illegally. Is every Israeli responsible for what the IDF or it's government does? Not unless you want to blame all Americans for what present and past U.S. administrations have done across the world. There are extremists on both sides who keep this conflict going. The rest of the Israeli and Palestinan people just wish to live in peace with each other.

You've shown yourself to be very knowledgable and Worldly. Can I ask you to view the video I have linked to in my signature? It is very informative and will give you some insight into why Israel is faced with the violence it currently does.

Thank you for the compliment, though I'm not sure I deserve it. I can't view the video at this time (terribly slow connection), but I will once I get home. I will send you a 'U2U' to give you my thoughts on it tomorrow.

Originally posted by wang
Please dont bring WW2 into this.....it seems to work its way into every topic.

I'm sorry for being one of those people who bring it up, but it only needed to serve as an example, nothing more. I could have easily used any other war of the 20th century, but this one (I feel) is most familiar to people.

Yes alot of civilians on both sides were killed during WW2, mainly from fire bombing cities. Yes the americans killed plenty of japanese in it airstrikes over japan, and the british and americasn bombed the hell out of berlin befor the end of WW2, killing again alot of innocent civilians. These were terrible actions of violence and indiscrimination, but one thing you have to remember is the technology of the day!
So to compare it to the Israeli bombing of beairut is something that cant be done, Precision guided missles, cameras on the plane to accurately se your target, and satelite intelligence to help you with your targets. A WW2 bomber pilot would be laughing his arse off at the Israeli airforce, still with all this technology they are making the same mistakes they did in WW2.

Believe me, I haven't forgotten about that little detail. I believe that if during WW II. we had the technology of today, I still think thousands of civilians would have died. We wouldn't have as many deaths, numbering in the millions,.... but I bet thousands would still have died at our hands. Human error erases much of that technological advantage and precision. Until you have robots who control themselves taking out desired targets, civilian casualties should be expected, though highly unwanted. Even THEN we would have to count on the fact that sometimes machines malfunction! After all, they are built (in some way) by human hands and minds. Just my opinion of course.

I know this is off topic, but this seems like a good example of a thread where it would be good to have an amusing distraction to decompress a little bit and catch a breath. I have set up just the thread for this:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Things have been getting really tense lateley, and I thought it would be nice to just have some laughs for a while.

Mods, if posting like this is not cool I apologize in advance and understand you removing it. I just thought it would be a pleasant time-out so everyone could come back to the table with emotions on a level keel.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
I just hope that Lebanon gets this over with and fulfill this one resolution ,so we can stop the sheep from bleeting this one lone number , so we can try to move on with life and help Israel and its sheep herd remember what happened before Israel had the car accident and lost its memory. They are gonna have a LOT of catching up to do.

ThePieMan, we are supposed to be toning down the rhetoric on PTS. What purpose does it serve by referring to me as "sheep", merely because I voice my opinion?

Originally posted by hogtie
I know this is off topic, but this seems like a good example of a thread where it would be good to have an amusing distraction to decompress a little bit and catch a breath. I have set up just the thread for this:

I appreciate the levity and I dont find you posting a distraction to blow off steam and cool down in my thread unwelcome. But I think you choose the wrong forum to post your light-hearted joke in. The paranormal thread (and all of ATS for that matter) is for serious discussion and knowingly posting false information is a major no-no. Even if it is intended as a joke.

You should think about posting the same thread in BTS

Thanks. I wasn't sure where it should go. But, while it is humorous, it should also be considered that I may be in contact with a spirit.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The fact is, Hezbollah should not even be in Lebanon as a military entity, according to UN Resolution 1559. They refuse to obey the directive of this world body, so how can their subsequent actions be condoned?

Ohh please visit the double standards with israeli and U.N. thread in my sig. How can you expect Lebanon to comply with one U.N. resolution with Israel refuses to follow MANY U.N resolutions?

So according to you if Israel is not to obery the U.N, then how can you condone their actions?

The U.S. (among other western nations) lists Hezbollah as a terrorist organization whether you agree with it or not. And I couldn't agree more.

Hezbollah has carried terrorist acts outside of Israel to other parts of the world. I hate having to educate people on things they can simply google for themselves. So I'll leave that up to anyone who actually is curious about the facts.
en.wikipedia.org...

Infact many Islamic-based terrorist organizations have made impacts outside of the middle-east. To say that we are responsible for their actions is not only absurd and ridiculous, but also on the verge of treason.

Thankfully we have a strong administration in the whitehouse and we also have a strong ally in the middle-east who refuses to stand down to terrorism. They are providing Lebanon a favor by removing the terrorist parasite from their country, while securing their own future.

Originally posted by laiguana
The U.S. (among other western nations) lists Hezbollah as a terrorist organization whether you agree with it or not. And I couldn't agree more.

Wrong, the only two nations that consider Hezbollah a terroist organization is America, and Israel.

Hezbollah has carried terrorist acts outside of Israel to other parts of the world. I hate having to educate people on things they can simply google for themselves. So I'll leave that up to anyone who actually is curious about the facts.
en.wikipedia.org...

When has Hezbollah targeted other nations, other than Israel? I cant find one instant of it on wiki. Although it does state this.

After the September 11, 2001 attacks, Hezbollah condemned Al Qaeda for targeting the civilian World Trade Center, though it remained silent on the attack on the Pentagon, presumably considering it a legitimate military target.

en.wikipedia.org...
They condemmed attacking a civilian target.

Infact many Islamic-based terrorist organizations have made impacts outside of the middle-east. To say that we are responsible for their actions is not only absurd and ridiculous, but also on the verge of treason.

Yes many islamis based terroist organizations have made a impact outside the middle east, but not Hezbollah. Since this thread is concering Hezbollah, you are misguiding people to state this.

Also to say that American forigen policy is responsible for the actions of islamic terroist groups is not ridiculous, abusrd and more patriotic than you could imagine.

Thankfully we have a strong administration in the whitehouse and we also have a strong ally in the middle-east who refuses to stand down to terrorism. They are providing Lebanon a favor by removing the terrorist parasite from their country, while securing their own future.

Israel is providing Lebanon with a favour? I would like you to say that to a Lebanese citizen, and see their response.

Originally posted by wang

Wrong, the only two nations that consider Hezbollah a terroist organization is America, and Israel.

Looks like you didn't quite read through the article or the references too well. But just for starters, if you try scrolling down a bit you will see in big bold print:

"Designation as a 'terrorist' organization"

..which includes six entities in total, although not all fully embrace the idea of Hezbollah being a terrorist organization at full.

However the U.S., Canada, Israel and the Netherlands -designate- Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
While Australia (link) and United Kingdom (link) have made official references of Hezbollah being an organization involved in terrorist activity.


As a side note: I also find it amusing that those accussing Israel and the US of being the 'bad guys' are also the individuals who are willing to believe Hezbollah's claims over U.S. intelligence reports. At that point it is more than obvious that this is stemming from a personal distrust and hatred of the U.S. government.

Hi 2manyquestions,

I'm calmer today and I didn't gloss over your post (as I mistakenly did the last time we interacted) so I've read through your (long, but nicely structured) post and here are my responses for the following:

Originally posted by 2manyquestions

I completely understand your frustration. It is not right to label anyone with names simply because of a difference in opinion. Unfortunately when Israel was formed, the British had control of Palestine. [...]

[...]Maybe we should be more clear about who we criticize? In example,.. IDF, Olmert, Extremist Zionists, etc. etc. Just an idea.

On point the point of Israel's formation/existence, my opinion defers slightly than yours. I believe what has been done, is done. It makes little sense to me to get all riled up over a page of history nobody actually knows completely about and use that as a justification for whatever (the destruction of Israel or the oppression of the natives that were there. I do believe though, that a regime change in Israel is needed (for the benefit of the World, and the World is not the US). A new government that is more equitable and democratic, less apartheid and more representative. That seems like where it all went wrong.

When a group is marginalized, obviously there's gonna be resentment. And oppressing a group of people will not necessarily make them finally bend over and take it. Most people will fight back.

So on that note, I 100% fully agree to the idea you presented in the second para, we should be clear who we are criticizing, because a blanket attack would make those who had nothing to do with the original arguement get defensive (as I have experienced myself every now and then on these boards).

Being clear from the onset would definitely improve the quality of the arguements, as there wouldn't be anymore mis-interpretations. Then there would be less tangential arguements and bickering. If people made their position and their points clear from the get go, while others take their time to digest the arguement being presented, it would eliminate 2-3 pages of bickering after an OP that we can see in MANY, MANY threads lately, regardless of which "side" they're on.

I don't doubt that Israel's Government is responsible for war crimes.

This is where we differ a bit. But not by much. Looking at the news reports, I can't but help wonder if the Israeli Government and IDF are purposely targetting civillians or they are just inept. Or is it that they just don't care? Looking at how the IDF treats Palestinian Arabs in their "ghettoes", my perception is that perhaps the claims that they are pretty much bigotted or at least an alarmingly large percentage of them are.

It works both ways, too. I don't think Hezbollah cares either. Otherwise they'd focus their rocket attacks on the IDF massing on the border, not on cities and towns of no strategic importance.

I have to admitt, there are more twists and turns in this damned conflict than there are in a bowl of spaghetti.

No arguement from me there. It's so convoluted that it's hard to tell where it actually began. That's why in the opening arguement, I favoured looking forward, instead of digging up history that may or may not be accurate. Open a new page, so to speak.

Until a poll is conducted, I obviously can't claim one way or the other with any certainty.

From observations,... while the highly Christian populations around the world would side with Israel for religious reasons, the world is a big place, and aside from the U.S.

In my opinion, the religious angle is just a means to get public support. For those actually in power, I think it boils down to simple economics -- campaign funding from the Israeli Lobby. That's probably why you don't see many Christians from other parts of the world fervently backing Israel; they were not fed propaganda by the policymakers of their country who are also not fed ca$h by a powerful, foreign lobby.

As fort the rest of your post, I more or less agree with you in general, so I'm not gonna add anything else there.

Oh yeah, 2MQ, good post by the way

Originally posted by wang
Ohh please visit the double standards with israeli and U.N. thread in my sig. How can you expect Lebanon to comply with one U.N. resolution with Israel refuses to follow MANY U.N resolutions?

So according to you if Israel is not to obery the U.N, then how can you condone their actions?

I don't condone a nation that elects to join the UN and then refuses to obey it's directives. Israel included.

That is different than support or condemnation for the current conflict.

But as I stated earlier, using bad behavior as an excuse for more bad behavior is not to be condoned either.

Originally posted by jsobecky

But as I stated earlier, using bad behavior as an excuse for more bad behavior is not to be condoned either.

I realize I've just picked one of your statements by itself to quote, but this statement is precisely why both sides in this conflict are being condemmed.

Considering Hezzbolah and "the Palestinians" and the nation of Israel, I find it easy to condemn all of them. The only group I have any sympathy for are the Palestinians. They have gotten a pretty raw deal from both the Arabs and the Jews, but they have hurt and perhaps mortally wounded their own cause by their adoption of terrorist actions. On the other hand, if they had not adopted such actions, they might not even be around today. As it is, the parallels between what happened to the American Indians and what is happening to the Palestinians is striking.

[edit on 10-8-2006 by Astronomer70]

Originally posted by jsobecky
So according to you if Israel is not to obery the U.N, then how can you condone their actions?

I don't condone a nation that elects to join the UN and then refuses to obey it's directives. Israel included.

That is different than support or condemnation for the current conflict.

But as I stated earlier, using bad behavior as an excuse for more bad behavior is not to be condoned either.


I do agree with you, except the notion that support or condemnation of the currrent conflict is different. We should condem Lebanon for not fully complying with resolution 1559, which would of prevented this current conflict. If so then we should also condem Israel for each and every resolution they have defied. Israel, Lebanon and Palestine should be treated as equals and each have the right to have a soverign state, which Israel and Lebanon (even if its in rumbles) does. Palestine doesnt have this right, because of Israeli occupation, if Israeli left the occupied lands of west bank and gazza and returned to its legal borders then suicide bombings would die down, im sure there will be a few idiots left who will continue fighting, but the majority of palestinians would turn agaisnt people who did attack Israel, if the occupied lands were given back to Palestine.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Hi 2manyquestions,

I'm calmer today and I didn't gloss over your post

No problem. I know how talkative I can get when it comes to posting here. Maybe I need to learn how to say what I want to say in a lesser amount of words.

I believe what has been done, is done.

That is spot-on what I believe as well. Forgive and forget (or rather admitt and remember that both sides are guilty in hurting the other) is my motto. Unfortunately it won't work if just one side Forgives and forgets. Wiping the slate clean is more difficult to do for some than it is for others.

I do believe though, that a regime change in Israel is needed (for the benefit of the World, and the World is not the US).

I'm not sure about the U.S. part of your post, but I'd have to agree that regime change in Israel may be in order. A better, similar regime in Lebanon to compliment the change in Israel would be even better. Unfortunately we'll always have the resistance groups who assassinate the leaders they don't approve of. Not everyone is interested in Peace, because it isn't profitable to them. That's an entirely new discussion/head-scratcher right there,.... determining how to convince everyone to want peace.

When a group is marginalized, obviously there's gonna be resentment. And oppressing a group of people will not necessarily make them finally bend over and take it. Most people will fight back.

Absolutely. No one should stand for oppression. My countrymen had to put up with it for hundreds of years, only recently gaining their independence. Fortunately they were able to do that without bloodshed. Whether Palestinians could do the same remains to be seen. It isn't easy or motivating to tell a people that maybe someday, 100 years from now they'll have their own country and live in peace with their neighbors. Who knows,... maybe the violence is extending those years even more, and maybe it is helping them achieve their goals faster. All I know is that thus far it doesn't seem like it is helping them. Of course everyone's perception of the situation will be different.

Being clear from the onset would definitely improve the quality of the arguements, as there wouldn't be anymore mis-interpretations.

Agreed. It is frustrating to read through 20 pages of the same 'arguments'. Sometimes I have the time to read through them, but sometimes I end up glossing over posts I really would have loved to read instead of the 30 minutes I spent on "Israel/Hezbollah sucks" or "Liberals/Conservatives suck" posts. Every now and then I'm guilty of it too, and everyone should have the right to post their thoughts, but it would help tremendously if people (including myself) first 'calmly' read through all the posts, and responded accordingly. I'll try to better myself.

Looking at the news reports, I can't but help wonder if the Israeli Government and IDF are purposely targetting civillians or they are just inept

After reading the recent threads that present examples of the Media misrepresenting facts on this conflict, I'm not sure whom to trust anymore. I have to cope with the fact that everything I've heard thus far may be a lie. Maybe the actions of the IDF are as bad as I've heard, and maybe they're nowhere near as bad as the media would have me believe. I'll just have to accept the fact that I have no clue what's 'really' going on. Maybe I need to take a trip to Lebanon and Israel myself. That's sad, considering we're already paying people to do that for us, and trust that our money buys us the truth. I guess that was naive of us.

It works both ways, too. I don't think Hezbollah cares either. Otherwise they'd focus their rocket attacks on the IDF massing on the border, not on cities and towns of no strategic importance.

Yep. It certainly works both ways. When you are aware of the fact that your weapons aren't as accurate as you'd like them to be,.... yet decide to shoot them across the boarder anyway, in my opinion you are basically admitting that you don't care who in particular dies, as long as you inflict some damage.

It's so convoluted that it's hard to tell where it actually began. That's why in the opening arguement, I favoured looking forward, instead of digging up history that may or may not be accurate. Open a new page, so to speak.

You're right, looking forward is important. We are aware of what happened in the past, so what do we do now to keep it from happening in the future? I usually bring up history only to illustrate that no one is as innocent as they might appear today. Acknowledge mistakes and move on to something better.

In my opinion, the religious angle is just a means to get public support. For those actually in power, I think it boils down to simple economics -- campaign funding from the Israeli Lobby.

Territorial ambitions and getting rich/powerful is the driving force behind this conflict. Everyone wants to be the most rich and powerful in order to be able to resist oppression IMO. No one wants to be the weaker man/woman at the mercy of another. Survival of the fittest. The Jews don't want to end up being governed by the Muslims, and the Muslims don't want to be governed by the Jews. WHY? It seems to me like they are afraid of one another, and don't trust that either one will treat the other fairly if the other wins. So, in effect, all those twists and turns lead to one basic point IMO; Fear. They are both afraid of one another.

Oh yeah, 2MQ, good post by the way

Thank you. I really enjoyed your post as well.

from Astronomer70
The only group I have any sympathy for are the Palestinians. They have gotten a pretty raw deal from both the Arabs and the Jews, but they have hurt and perhaps mortally wounded their own cause by their adoption of terrorist actions.

Originally posted by wang
We should condem Lebanon for not fully complying with resolution 1559, which would of prevented this current conflict. If so then we should also condem Israel for each and every resolution they have defied.

Yes, Israel should also follow the resolutions. And they should not be allowed to use 1559 as an excuse to ignore further resolutions. A stake has to be placed in the ground, or else the UN should be dissolved of this part of it's charter, since nobody follows it anyway.

Palestine doesnt have this right, because of Israeli occupation, if Israeli left the occupied lands of west bank and gazza and returned to its legal borders then suicide bombings would die down, im sure there will be a few idiots left who will continue fighting, but the majority of palestinians would turn agaisnt people who did attack Israel, if the occupied lands were given back to Palestine.

I agree with you and Astronomer70 about Palestine's plight. But, imo, they were in such a state of disorder that they allowed themselves, understandably, to be led down the garden path by a despot who never wanted peace - Arafat.

The same can be said for the general populace of Lebanon. They could not possibly evict Hezbollah - they didn't have the wherewithall. The only thing I can say about that is that they should have appealed to the world community for help. It's easy for me to say that, though - I didn't live in that atmosphere.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The same can be said for the general populace of Lebanon. They could not possibly evict Hezbollah - they didn't have the wherewithall. The only thing I can say about that is that they should have appealed to the world community for help. It's easy for me to say that, though - I didn't live in that atmosphere.

I agree with what've you said in this post jsobecky. Just wanted to add that the Lebanese also received vast amounts of social services from Hezbollah including free universal health care, primary and secondary education and a police force. These services would be unavailable without Hezbollah which is just another reason why Lebanese people would be reluctant to oust Hezbollah even if they had the means to.

I'm sorry subz but I don't agree with you. Nor do lots of Lebanese. I have two very close friends who are Lebanese and have extended families living in Lebanon. Both remember the pre-revolution Lebanon that was an affluent tourist mecca (no pun) for Europe and the ME. Much of the investment and the majority of the tourist revenue that fueled their economy, built their schools and hospitals and was the basis of their former prosperity came from these foreign sources that have now all but disappeared. The 'social programs' Hezbollah provides are a far cry from what Lebanon acheived on its own. The vast majority of this foreign investment and revenue is reluctant to return to Lebanon because of Hezbollah. Both of these families hate the fact that Hezbollah has hijacked their country. I've traveled to Russia. Moscow could be a huge tourist attraction... if it weren't for the fact that the Russian Mafia controls everything. The mafia provides employment and benefits to a portion of the population but if they weren't a factor the entire population would be far, far better off.

Originally posted by jtma508
The 'social programs' Hezbollah provides are a far cry from what Lebanon acheived on its own. The vast majority of this foreign investment and revenue is reluctant to return to Lebanon because of Hezbollah. Both of these families hate the fact that Hezbollah has hijacked their country. I've traveled to Russia. Moscow could be a huge tourist attraction... if it weren't for the fact that the Russian Mafia controls everything. The mafia provides employment and benefits to a portion of the population but if they weren't a factor the entire population would be far, far better off.

Thank you for sharing a fresh outlook on the situation. I don't personally know anyone from Lebanon, but I'm part of a site which happens to have members from all over the world. One of the members I came across lives in Lebanon. This member has expressed resentment toward Hezbollah as well. Here's a link to her Journal from when the bombings began: Cedarseed's Journal If anyone wants to read more, just scroll down to "Recent Journal Entries" on the right side of the page, and click on one of the appropriate links.

hope it's obvious from all this, for any who might still have doubts on the question, that there's nothing Lebanese about the hizballah. They could not possibly display less consideration for the country and its inhabitants. Nobody can claim that their actions are a way, no matter how #$%@&* up, of "serving the nation". I hope they are all killed to the last, though no death can be slow enough for this scum.

Originally posted by jtma508
I'm sorry subz but I don't agree with you. Nor do lots of Lebanese. I have two very close friends who are Lebanese and have extended families living in Lebanon. Both remember the pre-revolution Lebanon that was an affluent tourist mecca (no pun) for Europe and the ME.

Are these families Christian families or Shiite families? Im not saying every Lebanese citizen adores Hezbollah, but they do provide a vast amount of essential services to Lebanon.