People like us

So I suppose Majic's unenviable mission is to impose the T&C on PTS, eh? Ahh, so now I see why podcasts have dropped by about 95%...

Or not at all...

The topic being » Middle-East Conflict » People like us »

And for those that don't know, in this thread, the "People like us" are those critical of Israel, and their current policies and strategies regarding the Lebanon incursion.

Any off topic remarks from here on will be dealt with administratively.

Thanks.

Originally posted by subz
Ok im starting to get riled over the accusations of Nazism and anti-semitism being bandied about here. It's time to get somethings clear.

People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though it goes against the mainstream. People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though there is a high likelihood it could negatively impact on our careers and social standing. People like us who continue to question Israel's actions do so because it is the right thing to do. People like us pay no attention to who is commiting the injustices, we just see the injustices and say it is not acceptable.

Subz,... I agree with you on the point that we must question. We must question not only Israel, but other nations as well. We must question Lebanon, Syria, Iran, the UN, the U.S.,..... basically everyone who is involved in this conflict, who has something to gain or lose. It is not appropriate to label you an Anti-Semite for questioning Israel, but some people may attribute such a title to you if they constantly see you questioning Israel, and no one else. It doesn't make name-calling right, but that is how some people may get such an impression of you.

It was people like us who fought against Nazism and all that it stood for. Including delusions of racial superiority, ethnic cleansing, devine right and mass murder which all present themselves in Israel's behaviour.

The reason some people might be upset by this statement is that you're accusing Israel of some pretty serious crimes here, but leaving out the crimes of Hezbollah,....or the Arab world in general. Israel is not alone in the world when it comes to such misdeeds. I understand that Israel is the only nation you want to discuss in this thread, but it is a very sensitive issue from which the deeds of Muslim Nations cannot be left out. This conflict goes back hundreds of years, and both groups are very much responsible for what goes on. They both have plenty of blood on their hands.

All those people who stood up did so when it was not in their best interests to do the right thing. They did so against the mainstream of the time and their stance later became the mainstream itself.

Surprisingly you're actually not in a minority this time. As another poster here already mentioned, most of the world opposes Israel's actions (as far as I know). I go back and forth, depending on what news comes out of the Middle East. I actually don't trust much of anything I hear anymore. I suppose I try to look at the situation from all points of view. Sometimes Israel is making the right moves, and sometimes I disagree. I can usually understand why Hezbollah is doing what they're doing, but I disagree with how they are going about what they're trying to achieve. It is my opinion that they both have equal rights to the same land. Problem is, if you're outnumbered and the land comes under Muslim rule, the chance of democracy becomes tiny.

How dare you call us anti-semites and Nazis when we're standing up against the very same things people stood up to protect the Jews against in the 1940s! We will prevail.

If you're standing up against violence, and against civilian casualties..... I certainly support your position. I know that sometimes war is necessary, but I always hope that a peaceful solution can be reached first. Wishing that Israel would cease fire in order to avoid civilian casualties does not make you Anti-Semite.

Fact is,..... when we stepped in to right the wrongs of the Nazis, we killed thousands of innocent civilians as well. Just check out these stats:
Wikipedia: World War II. Casualties
I can't judge and say that stopping Hitler justified these deaths, but my guess would be that the World is better off without him. Could these civilian deaths have been avoided? Probably,... but we have to remember that human beings are not infallible. To my knowledge, Israel knows that civilian deaths don't make them Mr. Popular. It is my opinion that they try to avoid it as much as possible, but can't avoid it completely. Just yesterday someone on ATS posted a thread on fake photographs out of Lebanon circulating on Reuters, courtesy of a photographer by the name of Adnan Hajj, who contributed as many as 900 photos for them. There are many which he doctored/manipulated. There is a lot of propaganda and civilian death number inflation going on as well. Hezbollah is very eager to use our own media to play with our heads. I wouldn't doubt that they overestimate civilian deaths in order to gain sympathy from the rest of the world.
One thing is for sure; It's a mess over there. If Hezbollah had the man-power and bigger support, it would have wiped the Jews from the face of the earth. I think Jews are aware of it, and aren't about to let another Holocaust happen. Just my opinion of course.

Great point on WWII 2manyquestions, people on both sides use Hitler as an example and no one ever talks about the tradgedies to the civilians that had no part in the war. Not only that, but we split Germany in two and gave half the population to the Russians, who where very inhumane, so that was our fault as well.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Subz,... I agree with you on the point that we must question. We must question not only Israel, but other nations as well. We must question Lebanon, Syria, Iran, the UN, the U.S.,..... basically everyone who is involved in this conflict, who has something to gain or lose. It is not appropriate to label you an Anti-Semite for questioning Israel, but some people may attribute such a title to you if they constantly see you questioning Israel, and no one else. It doesn't make name-calling right, but that is how some people may get such an impression of you.

Im fully aware of your point and I agree with it. I am critical of both sides of this conflict. I just happen to believe that no side has a right to kill innocent civilians. That stance seems to be fine until I question Israel's actions. I've never been called an anti-muslim because I denounce Hezbollah's attacks on Israeli civilians. I've never been called an anti-muslim because I say Hamas has no right to kill Israeli civilians. But I have been called anti-semitic when I say Israel has no right to kill Palestinians or occupy their land.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
The reason some people might be upset by this statement is that you're accusing Israel of some pretty serious crimes here, but leaving out the crimes of Hezbollah,....or the Arab world in general. Israel is not alone in the world when it comes to such misdeeds. I understand that Israel is the only nation you want to discuss in this thread, but it is a very sensitive issue from which the deeds of Muslim Nations cannot be left out.

I stand by my accusations against Israel and its war crimes. They are well documented. But as you acknowledge this is a thread directed at people who criticize Israel being fobbed off as simply anti-semitic. There are plenty of threads regarding crimes committed by Hezbollah and Hamas.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
This conflict goes back hundreds of years, and both groups are very much responsible for what goes on. They both have plenty of blood on their hands.

This is the first thing I disagree with you on. The conflict goes back to 1947 and the formation of a Jewish state on land already belonging to Palestinian Arabs. The major current source of animosity between Israel and Palestinians is the ongoing illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the illegal Jewish settlements that are annexing Palestinian land. The Israeli's have been told to withdraw since 1968 by the UN security council but have failed to comply due to the United States veto. Up until the 1940's the small percentage of Jews who lived in Palestine cohabitated with the Arabs peacefully.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Surprisingly you're actually not in a minority this time.

Well since public opinion in the West strongly favours Israel I would stand by my claim to be in the minority

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
If you're standing up against violence, and against civilian casualties..... I certainly support your position. I know that sometimes war is necessary, but I always hope that a peaceful solution can be reached first. Wishing that Israel would cease fire in order to avoid civilian casualties does not make you Anti-Semite.

That is my stance in a nut shell. I am against civilian casualties on both sides. Period.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
Fact is,..... when we stepped in to right the wrongs of the Nazis, we killed thousands of innocent civilians as well. Just check out these stats:
Wikipedia: World War II. Casualties

I understand the differences here. Hitler was a threat to the Europe and the World. The same cannot be said for the Palestinian people. They are not even a threat to the Israeli state. They have been illegally occupied for nearly 40 years and they live destitute and as second class citizens in their own land. They have had their land stolen and not compensated and Israeli soldiers shoot Israeli civilians for throwing stones at armoured tanks.

The violence aimed at Israel is a product of the Israeli illegal occupation of Palestine. Therefore claiming Israel's struggle against Palestinians is akin to the struggle against Hitler is arse-about logic. The Palestinians are resisting an illegal occupation and the Israelis are illegally occupying and slowly ethnically cleansing Palestine of its original inhabitants.

You've shown yourself to be very knowledgable and Worldly. Can I ask you to view the video I have linked to in my signature? It is very informative and will give you some insight into why Israel is faced with the violence it currently does.

[edit on 8/8/06 by subz]

Please dont bring WW2 into this.....it seems to work its way into every topic.

Yes alot of civilians on both sides were killed during WW2, mainly from fire bombing cities. Yes the americans killed plenty of japanese in it airstrikes over japan, and the british and americasn bombed the hell out of berlin befor the end of WW2, killing again alot of innocent civilians. These were terrible actions of violence and indiscrimination, but one thing you have to remember is the technology of the day!

WW2 pilots simply had to judge by their own senses, with very little equipment to help when and where to drop the bomb, fresh pilots hardly ever hit their objectives, vetern pilots got good hit rates but still never just hit the target directly. So to compare it to the Israeli bombing of beairut is something that cant be done, Precision guided missles, cameras on the plane to accurately se your target, and satelite intelligence to help you with your targets. A WW2 bomber pilot would be laughing his arse off at the Israeli airforce, still with all this technology they are making the same mistakes they did in WW2.

Like one of them said it shows their "true colours".

I would not say this thread shows anyone's "true colours". The only thing it shows is bias with unrational logic on BOTH sides. There are not many threads that get this heated, if it were a trend and happened often...then yeah, it would be safe to say that people are sporting their "true colours".

This is a touchy subject, has been for the past 2000 years. Sometimes people, especially on ATS, get a little personally involved in the debates. If that happens, pick up your pack, regroup and press forward.


Back on topic
I understand what subz is saying...to a point. It seems that people who oppose Israel are labeled as 'haters', Anti-S or whatever. But I would not go as far as to put myself up there with MLK, Ghandi and Joan D'Arc, not even close.

[edit on 8/8/2006 by SportyMB]

Back to the topic, here is a example of wha Subz was talking about at the start of this thread.

Originally posted by laiguanaI support freedom, you and your bandwagon of anti-semites support terrorists, so if that makes me a troll so be it. Also, thank the highest for having such a wonderful ally as Israel who will not stand down to the invasion of the demonic cult of the jihadists. Bless the West!

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Bandwagon of anti-semites support terroism?

This is the problem on PTS at the moment, people like laiguana here who think that anyone who does question the actions of Israel are Anti-semetic terroists....This sort of name calling needs to be stopped on PTS, even if you are aloud to attack another persons views, you may not attack anyone personaly.
This i take offensive, and if i was a muslim i would put a fatwa on his ass.

[edit on 073131p://upTuesday by wang]

Coming from someone who doesn't care one bit about those religions or about the politics of our involvement with one or the other's governments ... honestly, people are open to their opinions. Their opinons are no less vaild than anyone else's. Now every single person's opinion might not be ACCEPTABLE via the T&C of this site, but they are still valid opinions nonetheless.

No matter what someone says about you, you must remain diligent in supporting your position with facts and data. Calling someone an anti-semite is just as bad as calling someone an anti-muslim. You have to realize that the other person's opinon is just as valid as yours ... you have to step into their shoes and think about how you want your posts viewed from the other side.

This is the main problem I see with many forums of this nature ... people are too vehement in defending their own position without 1) doing research on the facts of the other side and 2) understanding the people you are trying to explain your side to. If you fail to do those things all you end up with is name-calling and hatred ... and that's an ARGUMENT, not a debate.

Sorry for the rant but it's a topic that's bugging me lately ... close-mindedness has keeping me from posting much lately in PTS (and by close-mindedness I mean those that would agree with my position as well as those who would oppose it).

Originally posted by SportyMB




Back on topic

I understand what subz is saying...to a point. It seems that people who oppose Israel are labeled as 'haters', Anti-S or whatever. But I would not go as far as to put myself up there with MLK, Ghandi and Joan D'Arc, not even close.

[edit on 8/8/2006 by SportyMB]

I only see one sentence in there that is back on topic. Your second sentence is most
definately another attempt to inflame the poster. Reread his initial post. I believe
you have misread it.

I came across this: video.google.com...

:sorry: its a video titled 'Understanding Anti-Semitism'

I haven;t watched it yet, but I wanted to make it available to you all.
Perhaps it can garner a decent discussion on the subject matter of this thread.

[edit on 8-8-2006 by nextguyinline]

Thanks for the example Wang, here is another.

Originally posted by IAF101
Sorry to gatecrash this anti-Israel back slapping, but is it time to pull out the Swastikas and shave my head yet ??

Thats the only thing left on this thread isnt it !

[...]

Heck, its cool to hate the Jews. Mel Gibson hates them, so can you!!

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

Ok I watched most of the video I posted.

It starts with anti-jewish propaganda surrounding WWII then leads into examples
that support the Jewish/Zionist world controlling conspiracies. I didn't see a second
part anywhere so I don't know if they present another side or not.

I found it to be rather uneducational other than pointing out some quotes and articles and books by Jewish/Zionist conspiracy promoters. It doesnt address the meaning
of anti-semite till about 21 min into it, and even then it was fleeting and went straight
into the conspiracy stuff.

They talked about Ariel Sharons alleged radio address where basicly he said Israel runs
America. I had read that that was found to be a fabrication, but never saw anything
conclusive on it.

So in summation, forget that video unless you can find the second part or want to buy
the DVD.

I find it funny how you "enlightened questioning individuals" make various accussations against Israel while liberally applying words such as zionism and zionists in your arguments and yet you are -offended- (lol) when people react to your stance as being anti-semitic. Many of you sit there and call Israel and the US terrorist states, well I don't see how any of you should be surprised when someone accuses you of supporting the terrorist agenda of Hizbollah, or Islamic -extremism- (to be politically correct). Ya'll become so enraged by it, it's practically comical because it's also so ironic.

Originally posted by laiguana
I find it funny how you "enlightened questioning individuals" make various accussations against Israel while liberally applying words such as zionism and zionists in your arguments and yet you are -offended- (lol) when people react to your stance as being anti-semitic. Many of you sit there and call Israel and the US terrorist states, well I don't see how any of you should be surprised when someone accuses you of supporting the terrorist agenda of Hizbollah, or Islamic -extremism- (to be politically correct). Ya'll become so enraged by it, it's practically comical because it's also so ironic.

I bet you find it funny because you are one of the people labeling other as anti-semetic. Its funny how if someone is agaisnt zionism they are anti-sematic, would you call the Neturei Karta as anti-semetic? How can orthodox jews be anti-sematic?

Also if you look up Semetic, you will find out that arabs are semetic aswell....so a arab can not be anti-sematic, as he would be agaisnt himself.

The prospect of Israel being a terroist state is relavtive, and America is not a terroist state, and i doubt anyone in this thread would say so, but America does suport a terroist state, Israel....again this is relative. But if you know your history America have been known to suport ruthless dictators in the past, for example Pinochet.

Also i doubt anyone here suports Hezbollah, or the extreme islam-facist idealogy. People simply condem the killing of innocent civilains on both sides, also if Israel kills more civilians then we have the right to condem them as much as we condem Lebanon and Palestine. This does not make us suporters of terroism, but promoters of peace and justice.[

Originally posted by laiguana
I find it funny how you "enlightened questioning individuals" make various accussations against Israel while liberally applying words such as zionism and zionists in your arguments and yet you are -offended- (lol) when people react to your stance as being anti-semitic.

Can you show me where being anti-zionist implies being anti-semitic? Would you like to tell the many Israelis, Rabbis and Jews from around the whole who are anti-Zionist that they are anti-semitic too?

Originally posted by laiguana
Many of you sit there and call Israel and the US terrorist states

Who said that in this thread? Why are you deliberately trying to derail a thread with off topic tangents?

Originally posted by laiguana
well I don't see how any of you should be surprised when someone accuses you of supporting the terrorist agenda of Hizbollah, or Islamic -extremism- (to be politically correct).

Care to explain why being against killing civilians is supporting the terrorist agenda? Which is of course what this thread is all about, being against the killing of civilians.

Originally posted by laiguana
Ya'll become so enraged by it, it's practically comical because it's also so ironic.

How so? You've created a complete straw man argument here. How is being against Zionism or the killing of civilians anti-semitic or pro-terrorist? Explain yourself.

Your arguments can be reversed. While you dislike people accussing you of being anti-semitic for questioning Israel's actions you have no problem labeling those that support Israel's efforts to eliminate Hizbollah (considered a terrorist organization by the U.S.) as zionists or supporters of zionism, etc. I don't see myself as a supporter of any zionist movement quite frankly because I have no affiliation to Judaism.
My argument is that as a U.S. citizen I am primarily concerned for anything that would benefit the U.S..... islamic-based terrorism supported by Hizbollah does not improve our presence in the middle-east. Now I'm sure some of you would make an instant connection that our support of Israel is what supposedly creates Islamic terrorism. And despite all the historical evidence, on a global scale, showing incidents of islamic-terrorism occuring outside of any US or Israeli presence, there will still be people claiming our relations with Israel as the prime factor for islamic-terrorism in the world.
It's an agenda against western civilization that we have here and that's something that I will never support.

Originally posted by laiguana
Your arguments can be reversed. While you dislike people accussing you of being anti-semitic for questioning Israel's actions you have no problem labeling those that support Israel's efforts to eliminate Hizbollah (considered a terrorist organization by the U.S.) as zionists or supporters of zionism, etc. I don't see myself as a supporter of any zionist movement quite frankly because I have no affiliation to Judaism.

Well you are obviously unaware of what Zionism is. Zionists will freely call themselves "zionists", it is not a dirty word or an insult. A zionist used to entail any one who believed Jews should have a homeland in Palestine. Now, since Israel already exists, a zionist seeks to strengthen Israel and increase its territory. You do not have to be Jewish to be a zionist and not all Jews are zionists.

If you believe Israel should be allowed to settle in occupied territory you are a Zionist.

Originally posted by laiguana
My argument is that as a U.S. citizen I am primarily concerned for anything that would benefit the U.S..... islamic-based terrorism supported by Hizbollah does not improve our presence in the middle-east.

Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation. It is a group formed specifically when Israel invaded Lebanon to get at the PLO (non-Lebanese Palestinian organisation). Hezbollah fought off the 18 year long occupation of Southern Lebanon. It was created in direct response to Israel's illegal and UN condemned invasion of Lebanon.

If the United States did not lend unwaivering and unequivocal support to Israel and ALL of its actions there would be no risk to the United States from Islamic extremism. It is the United States complete acquiescence to Israel that you should be worried about because that is endangering you as an American.

Originally posted by laiguana
Now I'm sure some of you would make an instant connection that our support of Israel is what supposedly creates Islamic terrorism. And despite all the historical evidence, on a global scale, showing incidents of islamic-terrorism occuring outside of any US or Israeli presence, there will still be people claiming our relations with Israel as the prime factor for islamic-terrorism in the world.

Can you show me some of this historical evidence because im pretty darn sure every Islamic terrorist attack can be attributed to either Israeli actions or US actions (and support thereof) in the Middle East.

Originally posted by laiguana
It's an agenda against western civilization that we have here and that's something that I will never support.

You are generalizing here. You are lumping resistance movements and freedom fighters in with radical islamists such as Bin Laden and al-Zawari. They are not the same and have vastly different goals. Shall I show you an interview Hezbollah leader Nasrallah gave to the CNN where he explicitly states that "the United States is not our enemy" and where he actually condemns the 9/11 attacks on the United States?

[edit on 9/8/06 by subz]

Good thread Subz and great kick-off comments.

Lately, the word I'm seeing is "appologist" used to label/describe those who critisize Israel's actions in the occupied territories. Some seem to have a hard time understanding that criticism of Israeli actions is not the same as condoning the actions of arab terrorists.

The fact is, Hezbollah should not even be in Lebanon as a military entity, according to UN Resolution 1559. They refuse to obey the directive of this world body, so how can their subsequent actions be condoned?

I think that Israel had a car accident on Oct. 8th 2000 and had extreme head trauma causing large chunks of collective memory to be lost, that it can constantly bleet this 1559 number as if she is the upholder of justice and has a clean slate.

I just hope that Lebanon gets this over with and fulfill this one resolution ,so we can stop the sheep from bleeting this one lone number , so we can try to move on with life and help Israel and its sheep herd remember what happened before Israel had the car accident and lost its memory. They are gonna have a LOT of catching up to do.

Resolution 1322 7 Oct 2000
Reaffirms that a just and lasting solution to the Arab and Israeli conflict must be based on its resolutions 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 and 338 (1973) of 22 October 1973, through an active negotiating process. Deplores the provocation carried out at Al-Haram Al-Sharif in Jerusalem on 28 September 2000, and the subsequent violence there and at other Holy Places, as well as in other areas throughout the territories occupied by Israel since 1968, resulting in over 80 Palestinian deaths and many other casualties. Condemns acts of violence, especially the excessive use of force against Palestinians, resulting in injury and loss of human life. Calls upon Israel, the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva. Calls for the immediate cessation of violence, and for all necessary steps to be taken to ensure that violence ceases, that new provocative actions are avoided, and that the situation returns to normality. Stresses the importance of establishing a mechanism for a speedy and objective inquiry into the tragic events of the last few days with the aim of preventing their repetition

Then Israel only has about 50 more to go ! I hope that Israel and its herd are as energetic in trying to correct the 50 they have ignored as they have been with the single resolution Lebanon did.