People like us

Originally posted by stumason
However, playing Mod and asking for the thread to stay on topic and in the very same post attack the OP's credibility and mocking him is hardly being an impartial moderator, is it? If he wanted to state his opinion, he should have taken his Mod hat off, instead of hiding behind it to take a swipe at Subz.

Agreed, but I am completely used to it. It's like water off a ducks back really but I do appreciate you and the other members who called him out on his behaviour. Thank guys

Originally posted by subz
But you'll ignore that salient point along with the evidence I gave you as requested.

Very well, show my willingness to be blind. I explained why prime minister's quotes in a parlamentary republic do not amount to an entire country's official stance, and without the actual laws from Israel, I do not accept your source as legitimate, unbiased and factual. I can't find the laws. Maybe you can; I provided a link for Israeli law, but couldn't find an english version.

If you dont think criticism of Israel equates to anti-semitism then why are you being adversarial?

Hypocrisy really bothers me

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Rockpuck
A minority, and like I said they don't understand the actual situation, as does alot of people on your.. "side" claim Israel is simply being racist. The difference in both of those wild claims? Nothing.

My "side"? Wasn't aware I was taking sides, but I suppose it may look like that depending on what post you read.

I am looking at the situation in a logical manner and can see no logical reason for the creation of Israel, hence the subsequent problems arising therein.

In the same vein, I cannot understand the tactics used by the Arabs. For example, the Katushya is a devasting weapon when used en masse against an area. The Hezbollah guys would be better off aiming them at troop concentrations rather than at cities. I can, though, see the economic importance of striking, say, Haifa, but with the weapons they have, it would be much more prudent to use them against the IDF.

I would have no problem with Jews living in plaestine if they just moved there and lived side by side with the Palestinians. What I don't understand is the very obvious segregation. Why did the Un not just setup a completely secular state where Jew, Arab , Christian or Buddhist for crying out loud all had the same voice? Works everywhere else, so why setup an apartheid state that favours those who are Jewish?

Again, the situation is entirely about religion and to argue otherwise makes no sense, as there would be no claim for the Jews to the lands that were taken.

EDIT: To clarify, I stand by assertion that criticism of Israel or even querying why israel even exists does not automatically qualify you as an anti-semite. One could argue that calling the palestinians "barbaric" or any other name is also anti-semitic.

Nygdan, as a mod, when making "mod like posts", surely you should be impartial. I find you deliberately obstructive to this discussion and offering very little imput apart from snide comments and attempts to slur the character of those who you disagree with. Very grown up

[edit on 7/8/06 by stumason]

First off, this thread was intended to say that people who support Israel are in fact moral inferior. Subz would agree to that, though he cries about being mocked.

Do I agree with what the past Israeli leaders said, which would indicate a disregard for human life? Hell now, but please, what does that have to do with this situation. Il admit Israel commits just the same amount of instigating into war as the Arabs, they also kill more, but never use full military strength to "wipe Arabs off the earth" - they have not done that and will not do that.

You expect me to condemn Israel just because civilians die, that in my opinion is not good enough reason, and being a westerner I will tend to pick the side of a western nation. Israel creates it's own problems, just like the Arabs, but why who I support should determine my moral character?

The reason Israel cannot occupy Gaza, West bank and so on and incorprate those palestinians into their country is well.. not a good one. They will never allow that to happen because they are a democracy and the rely on votes, there are more Arab Muslims then their are Jews, especially in the past 40 years where Palestinians seemed to mate like bunnies and reproduced until they have on of the worst population density in the world. To many Muslims to have a secular government, it would be an economic suicide.

Subz attacked anyone who disagreed with him. That is why there is such an outrage over his comments, he didn't say that supporting an anti-war stance is a good cause, he didn't say that more people should support peace, he did not even give reasons (until later with the quotes) on WHY we should opt for his view on things. He said through his little speach on who sits with who, which he apparently sits with JFK, King and Ghandi and apparently because people like me and many other on this board support Israel, we are then on a lower level of morality. Deny it all you want Subz, it is what you said.

Originally posted by subz
Ok im starting to get riled over the accusations of Nazism and anti-semitism being bandied about here. It's time to get somethings clear.

People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though it goes against the mainstream. People like us who question Israel's actions do so even though there is a high likelihood it could negatively impact on our careers and social standing. People like us who continue to question Israel's actions do so because it is the right thing to do. People like us pay no attention to who is commiting the injustices, we just see the injustices and say it is not acceptable.

Ok i do think this thread has got out of hand.

I think people of the likes of Nydgan, Junglejake, and Rockpunk have all tried to twist the words that subz stated. Look at the words i bolded, simply questioning the actions of all sides is the higher moral ground, to simply state that one side is wrong and another is right is simplistic and yes morally lower ground. If we dont question the action of Israel, then why should we expect the arab populace to question the actions of their leaders? We question the actions of the Lebanese leaders for not inciting U.N. resolution 1559 for not preventing this siutation?. Why should we not question the actions of Israel aswell?

Questioning is the only way we can find the truth, and peoeple who prevent the questioning of a particular side or demean a particular side are simply denying the search for truth. The point of the post was to simply state that members of ATS should be able to question anything, without being labelled as a anti-semite, nazi etc. To claim which side is right can be discussed in another thread, but for mods to come here and try to lower the credibility with petty insults towards the thread because of their opinions concerning other topics related to this is not resourceful and is counter productive to the mandate of ATS.




[edit on 073131p://upMonday by wang]

No..... he said "people like us" where with JFK, KING and so on... how is that not stateing he thinks he is above us all?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
No..... he said "people like us" where with JFK, KING and so on... how is that not stateing he thinks he is above us all?

Yes and so? Honestly i dont totaly agree with the views of JFK or King, so that doesnt make me feel any more above anyone. The simply fact that he questions both sides proves he if above others on this board, to take either side blindly as the right one is ignorant.

Again Rockpunk stay on the topic of the thread, people who do question the actions of Israel have recently been labelled Anti-semetic when in fact they are just trying to deny ignorance and isnt that the reason this forum exists? For people to be insulted this way and the people responsible seemed to be handled softly, compared to other people who break board rules.

Originally posted by wang

Originally posted by Rockpuck
No..... he said "people like us" where with JFK, KING and so on... how is that not stateing he thinks he is above us all?

Yes and so? Honestly i dont totaly agree with the views of JFK or King, so that doesnt make me feel any more above anyone. The simply fact that he questions both sides proves he if above others on this board, to take either side blindly as the right one is ignorant.

Again Rockpunk stay on the topic of the thread, people who do question the actions of Israel have recently been labelled Anti-semetic when in fact they are just trying to deny ignorance and isnt that the reason this forum exists? For people to be insulted this way and the people responsible seemed to be handled softly, compared to other people who break board rules.

It's Rock - Puck

I agree people who are anti WAR are being labled Anti Semetic. I agree that is wrong, I try and stay in the middle and I will admit often I shoot off to the right when argueing someone way out there in the left, that is ignorance. Guilty as charged. I am not however, morally inferior to "people like Subz" which I truly think thats what he was meaning when making this thread, I have not seen him state otherwise.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
First off, this thread was intended to say that people who support Israel are in fact moral inferior. Subz would agree to that, though he cries about being mocked.

Mind pointing out where he said that. If you honestly believe that is what he said, then I question your ability to read English. He quite clearly said that why does criticising Israel lead to being tarred with the "Anti-Semite" label.

The examples he is using are not to illustrate who has moral superiority, but to show that it takes some people to go against the flow to raise an issue.

For example, siding with the Blacks in the 60's would get your reputation dragged through the mud if you were white. The same applies here if you dare criticise Israel. That, I believe, is what he is trying to illustrate.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Do I agree with what the past Israeli leaders said, which would indicate a disregard for human life? Hell now, but please, what does that have to do with this situation. Il admit Israel commits just the same amount of instigating into war as the Arabs, they also kill more, but never use full military strength to "wipe Arabs off the earth" - they have not done that and will not do that.

Not sure what your on about here, so I assume your not talking to me. I never raised any of the above points.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
You expect me to condemn Israel just because civilians die, that in my opinion is not good enough reason, and being a westerner I will tend to pick the side of a western nation. Israel creates it's own problems, just like the Arabs, but why who I support should determine my moral character?

I don't expect you to do anything. I also accept that, yes, civilians die in war. All I think that is being asked is why the anti-semitec labels being bandied around. I think people are making a meal out of the examples of people standing up for what they believe contrary to the accepted norm.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
The reason Israel cannot occupy Gaza, West bank and so on and incorprate those palestinians into their country is well.. not a good one. They will never allow that to happen because they are a democracy and the rely on votes, there are more Arab Muslims then their are Jews, especially in the past 40 years where Palestinians seemed to mate like bunnies and reproduced until they have on of the worst population density in the world. To many Muslims to have a secular government, it would be an economic suicide.

Prior to the formation of Israel, the Jews made up 10% of the population. A democratic Government exists (existed?) in Lebanon, so why not do the same in Palestine? I just don't understand why the Jews get the privelage of their own country when it wasn't their land to claim.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Subz attacked anyone who disagreed with him. That is why there is such an outrage over his comments, he didn't say that supporting an anti-war stance is a good cause, he didn't say that more people should support peace, he did not even give reasons (until later with the quotes) on WHY we should opt for his view on things. He said through his little speach on who sits with who, which he apparently sits with JFK, King and Ghandi and apparently because people like me and many other on this board support Israel, we are then on a lower level of morality. Deny it all you want Subz, it is what you said.

Again, I think your making a meal out of the examples he used when all I think he was trying to illustrate was people standing up for what they believed against the mainstream accepted view. No where did I get the impression he was saying "we are this side, your on that side". Just that people need to stand up for what they believe in without fear of being labelled, punished etc etc.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
It's Rock - Puck

I agree people who are anti WAR are being labled Anti Semetic. I agree that is wrong, I try and stay in the middle and I will admit often I shoot off to the right when argueing someone way out there in the left, that is ignorance. Guilty as charged. I am not however, morally inferior to "people like Subz" which I truly think thats what he was meaning when making this thread, I have not seen him state otherwise.

Excuse my mispelling of you nick, dont know why i saw Rockpunk....sorry Rock-Puck.

I believe that you are morally inferior if you dont question both sides of the spectrum, yes im a leftie but that doesnt mean i dont question pro-left threads, like Souljahs threads for example. My point is Rock Puck that you should question some of the rights statements on the situation aswell, it is not clear-cut as you may think. If you do this then you are on the same ground as subz, again anyone who doesnt question both sides is not denying ignorance. I do not talk for subz but i believe this is what he was trying to communicate in this thread.

Exunctly, Wang. I also don't agree with hardly anything Souljah says as he is the exact same as a right-wing war perv, see's his side but no one elses.

It's us in the middle that try to see both sides, but it's hard to do that when your being labelled a Nazi and Anti-Semite in every thread when you question Israel, or being labelled an Islamo-Facist when questioning the "War on Terror"

Isn't the duty of every citizen in the free world to question these things and not blindly follow what we're told by our leaderships?

EDIT: To add, I don't feel the need to criticise the terrorists when they do reprehensable acts, as I feel that is a given. I make my criticism's of the so called democratic Governments heard as that is something we can at least have some modicum of control over and in part, it's our Governemtns actions, both past and present, that created this whole mess in the first place.

[edit on 7/8/06 by stumason]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I agree people who are anti WAR are being labled Anti Semetic. I agree that is wrong, I try and stay in the middle and I will admit often I shoot off to the right when argueing someone way out there in the left, that is ignorance. Guilty as charged.

Then you have no quarrel with me, nor I with you. If you do not equate criticism of Israel with being anti-semitic then you think the same as I.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I am not however, morally inferior to "people like Subz" which I truly think thats what he was meaning when making this thread, I have not seen him state otherwise.

The whole "morally inferior" tone arose in Jsobecky's irrational reply to my OP. No where in my OP was there any reference to being morally superior. It simply stated that criticising Israel is not anti-semitism. It also drew parallels between the times of Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela, only insofar as that the people who stood up with them in their cause were taking the point of view which was not in their best interests. They chose it regardless because they thought it was right. There was no judgement call in there. There was no claims that those who support Israel are morally inferior, that was solely of Jsobecky's making.

Please re-read what I wrote in my OP. The only people it attacks are those calling us anti-semites because we criticise Israel, that is all. No where does it say that if you support Israel you are evil or anything of the kind. Listen, I support Israel's right to exist. I dont believe it was the ideal solution for the Palestine mandate but Israel is a reality and it is a legal nation. Any one who thinks Israel should be dissolved is deluded and does not have my support. Israelis have built a country and there are many millions of Israelis who have been born there and have a right to stay there.

But im not so close minded and myopic to think the above about Israel and not have the exact same instinct and humanity towards Palestinians and Lebanese. They have EXACTLY the same right to live where they are and to have their own sovereign states. Having both these views are not incompatible and believing in the persecution of Palestinians at the hands of Israel does not automatically make me an Israel-hater or anti-semite.

The same applies when I believe Hezbollah has a right to fight Israel when their land is being occupied and when Israel continues to hold thousands of Lebanese civilians hostage in illegal jails. These include Lebanese men, women and children who have committed no crime. Again, I am not so close minded that I would allow this legitimate resistance of Hezbollah to include targetting Israeli civilians. I categorically denounce Hezbollah in its targetting and killing of Israeli civilians. I dont know how many times I have to say this to keep the likes of Jsobecky off my back. I've never condoned Hezbollah's killings of innocent Israeli civilians. Ever.

Is my stance any clearer?

p.s. Wang and Stu, you're doing a better job at speaking for me than I have. You're articulating exactly my sentiments and I thank you for it

[edit on 7/8/06 by subz]

This thread conveys the issue of social justice. What subz is trying to say that there are people who are courageous enough to fight against the situation of inequality. Doing so, they make the world better for all of us, not one "appointed group".

He was not trying to be "holier than thou".

However, obviously jsobecky does not want to be a part of "people like us". He continues to protest any situation that warrants a sense of compassion, caring or empathy. He continues to attack those who care for others. He criticizes any attempt to bring about a recognization of the complexities afforded to the suffering of the least of us. In fact, his posts mock them.

Thank you, subz, for doing this thread. It is about time for people to examine what social justice means especially when discussing current events.



[edit on 7-8-2006 by ceci2006]

Wang, we go back and forth enough for you to know I question everyone! The only position I am truly right on is Israel simply because the reasons people on the board give are not what I would call good reasons to condemn them. I see they are at war, and just because civilians die does not mean they are a monster. There past is up for question, what they say in politics is up for question, and I have more then once said that Israel has used the mounting death toll as terror weapons and over-doing bombing of towns.

The satalite images of before and after the begining of the war are amazing, entire blocks wiped clean off the map.

As for why I correct your spelling is because you spell it like that often Much like letting Pieman think I was Israeli (or at least he always says "your country" I don't think I could convince him otherwise

I never assume because someone is against war that they are anti-semetic nazi supporters or whatever, but I really do think Subz came off like he was better then most. I supprt bringing down hitler, I support King, I don't think JFK was actually that great of a president... but whatever the point is I support all fo that, yet I still support Israel more so then Hezbollah.

Israels majority religous group is Jewish and allowing Palestine (and Hammas
because they are a party) into Israel as citizens they will, like white in south Africa loose their power and controll.

From having Lebanese friends and a close Lebanese professor who I talked about Labenese government alot with before the war began, Lebanons method of government is outdated and doesn't run efficiently. To keep peace they have a Christian President, Shiite Prime Ministor and other offices occupied by other religions. I have never been there and only hear things second hand, although they DID have nice beaches. Those would be gone now. Now I never would have a reason to go there.

right then, I am done rambling I don't know who I am even replying to anymore.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Thank you, subz, for doing this thread. It is about time for people to examine what social justice means especially when discussing current events.

My pleasure ceci, so long as a few people understand my point it's all worth the personal hassle it causes me

Originally posted by rockpuck
I never assume because someone is against war that they are anti-semetic nazi supporters or whatever, but I really do think Subz came off like he was better then most. I supprt bringing down hitler, I support King, I don't think JFK was actually that great of a president... but whatever the point is I support all fo that, yet I still support Israel more so then Hezbollah.

Who mentioned JFK? Not I, the only person who instigated a "morally superior" or "holier than thou" aspect to this thread was Jsobecky and he was way off the mark. Surely if you go back and re-read my OP you will see this.

Yeaahhh... I have no Idea where JFK came from.
2 hours and the shift is over.

My appologize on my JFK comments Subz.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Yeaahhh... I have no Idea where JFK came from.

2 hours and the shift is over.

My appologize on my JFK comments Subz.

2 hours? Your a lucky man! I have another 4 left out of a 12 hour shift....

Originally posted by Rockpuck
My appologize on my JFK comments Subz.

No problemo, it happens

It's very easy to attribute things to other people when in all actuality it never occured. I'm guilty of this myself. I had a quote in my signature that was attributed to Israeli PM Sharon. It was pointed out to me by a moderator, Djarums, that the quote was fictional and I removed it post haste!

I dont mind if people get things wrong or misinterpret what I say, that is to be expected. It's when people continue to attribute falacies and complete fabrications inspite of my best efforts to explain the contrary that it becomes an issue. Like is evident in this thread from Jsobecky, Junglejake and Nygdan. They attribute things to my posts which dont exist in an effort to bring down my argument. It is intellectually dishonest and does there argument no favours in the long run.

In parting, I hope your shift ends swiftly and you get to have a beverage of your choosing

[edit on 7/8/06 by subz]

I think a big part in misinterpritation (damn I miss my Firefox spell checker ) is that on a board like this, you don't get natural tone of voice, gestures and so on, you get what you see and you add what feelings you want to them.

Gotta love the jobs where you sit on ATS all day.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I think a big part in misinterpritation (damn I miss my Firefox spell checker

) is that on a board like this, you don't get natural tone of voice, gestures and so on, you get what you see and you add what feelings you want to them.

Gotta love the jobs where you sit on ATS all day.

You are right. Tone, inflection, mannerisms and body language are all vital in effective communication. In the abscence of those cues you are bound to misinterpret things. That's why I dont take offence if it occurs and I have the chance to explain myself further.

It's the people like us that broke ranks and pushed the deprogramming button.

If that makes us (insert a proper label here), so be it.

We have set ourselves on a journey subz.

And what a marvelous journey it is.