Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Stumason I agree NATO did not cause those deaths, never said they did, I said NATO admitted to 1,500 casualties in total military and civilian while some 10,000 died at the hands of serbs, mostly Albanian muslims.

Cool, seems we both agree then. I know the Serbs did alot of damage themselves, but Olmert is claiming we inflicted 10,000 deaths, which is BS..

To be expected though, I suppose.

Then we do agree, NATO in no way caused the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo, I still stand by my point Europe, along with any country not in Israels shoes cannot preach to Israel about how to conduct warfare.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Israels prime minister seems to have a good check on reality, that war cannot avoid civilian cassualties. Glad to see someone has common sense, and to the Europeans, a group of countries that all throughout their history have dark stains of the slaughter they put onto others should shut there face and remember that just because you like to think you changed, you can't change who you really are.

No kidding....they are always screaming about war crimes and europe alone has had enough war crimes to condemn for millenia. But you dont see me as an american, as the decendant of those who had to come to their aid to stop the bloodshed, rubbing it in their nose everytime they have a conflict.


Maybe they are trying to save the world the same problems, I dont know, but these Radicals/muslims/terrorists wahtever you call them have blatantly called for the death of as many Israelis/Americans/westerners and even europeans as possible.

The time for talk ended 5 years ago.....Its time for action and thats what the US and Israel is doing. We are defending our common interests and our safety.

It isnt "all bush's fault" adn this war wont end with a new president. IF america sticks to it's guns we may end this war in another 10 years. IF we back out now it will never end.

Hahaha i love it how people see that "the war on terroism" is possible.....

The beautiful thing about this 'war' is that it has no single objective. Atleast the cold war objective was to overthrow communism. When amercia takes out al-queda, HAMAS, Hezbollah and any other radical islamic organizations, a new terroist enemy will appear, lets say eco-terroists, then anarchists, then liberals etc. etc. The war will continue aslong as the government labels organzations as terroists organzations. Terroism has existed since man has existed, you cant win a war on terroism.

Originally posted by wang
Hahaha i love it how people see that "the war on terroism" is possible.....

The beautiful thing about this 'war' is that it has no single objective. Atleast the cold war objective was to overthrow communism. When amercia takes out al-queda, HAMAS, Hezbollah and any other radical islamic organizations, a new terroist enemy will appear, lets say eco-terroists, then anarchists, then liberals etc. etc. The war will continue aslong as the government labels organzations as terroists organzations. Terroism has existed since man has existed, you cant win a war on terroism.

So, I agree, lets dissolve as a nation and abide by terrorist demands. Common sense there oo ya.

Read my post again, i never said anything about dissolving a nation.

I do not side with any side, the fanatical islamists are wrong and the fanatical conservatives are wrong. Both sides have contributed to the current situation today, American foriegn policy in the middle east caused unrest, then the islamic clerics feed this unrest with its anti-west proaganda.

The point to my statement befor about not being able to win a war on terroism sprouts from the notion that terroism is relative. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terroist, so simply put to anyone who does not agree with conservative idealolgy who takes action agaisnt the establishment can be labeld a terroist. The war on terroism will last for aslong as the masses believe it is a war that can be won.

Wang has a point.

The underlining cause for this war, and every other war for that matter, is power, greed and agenda's.
But just like any war past, there has to be "good guys & bad guys"
Its the common use of propaganda psychology on the populace to take sides in a conflict.

Fight the nazi's, fight imperialist japan, fight communism, fight terrorism .....

The Govt would never get away with "we need to destroy such'n'such nation cause it will make us more rich and powerfull" so we dissagree with their political ideoligy, beliefs and way of life. We paint them to be a danger to OUR way of life, the life of the free and innocent.

Never mind the masses of innocent who do the actual killing and dieing - they are but mere feeders and breaders, connon fodder for the cause ....

Its always the same, and always will be - the few make the calls for the many.
Todays allies are tomorrows enemies, and waging war has been a part of human history sinse time began.

Arguing about who's the "good guys" and who's the "bad guys" is proof the propaganda is doing what it was planned too.
There are NO good guys and bad guys, just simple people wanting to live their lives in peace, until the select few start pressing buttons to brain wash us into believing otherwise.

Your average Israeli doesn't want this war, your average middle eastern person doesn't want this either. People left alone wihtout politically driven propaganda will live in peace.
Its been proven time and time again that people of ALL races can live in peace, and want to live in peace.

But as soon as you start believing ALL muslims are a danger to our way of life, and we are ALL nothing but evil infidels hell bent on destroying those unlike us, as you can see in MANY propaganda driven media forms, we will follow like sheep to the slaughter of the innocent.

Originally posted by Burginthorn
Its been proven time and time again that people of ALL races can live in peace, and want to live in peace.

no way. i think if anything, history has proven that people of all races can NOT live in peace. most, if not all wars, are fought because of religion, race, or power. this group hates that group....it's been going on since the stone age.


people might want peace as a whole, but humanity has no where NEAR come close to fufilling the idea that all races can live in harmony.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I would be from America, I am of Irish/English decent, and I recognize my ancestors waged horrific wars and why that has anything to do with what I said, because I am not preaching to Israelis now am I?

No, you are preaching to Europeans, and yet you live in a country that has been involved in active military actions virtually every year since WW2, and has suffered its own amount of death, and yet you seem to think that this killing is acceptable.

When are there enough dead people?

And - coming from Britain, who faced a similar problem to Israel when dealing with the IRA, and yet didn't bomb the crap out of Ireland, I think that we may be in a bit of a better position to judge Israel's actions than someone living in the USA.

Maybe Spain, who suffered from Attacks by ETA and yet didn't level Basque towns is also in a better position.

Maybe us "Europeans" shouldn't be "shutting our face", maybe, just maybe other people ought to be listening to what we have to say, because we've been there and done that.

Originally posted by ZMax
Because USA are not preaching Israel!!!

Correct! They are only preaching to the rest of the world!

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
Ah, but the Israelis have gone to great lengths to explain to the world that the LEBANESE are NOT the enemy of Israel, only that they are Just like Israelis, Victims of Hezbollah.

Ah, but Hezbollah are Lebanese too.

Originally posted by wang
Read my post again, i never said anything about dissolving a nation.

I do not side with any side, the fanatical islamists are wrong and the fanatical conservatives are wrong. Both sides have contributed to the current situation today, American foriegn policy in the middle east caused unrest, then the islamic clerics feed this unrest with its anti-west proaganda.

The point to my statement befor about not being able to win a war on terroism sprouts from the notion that terroism is relative. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terroist, so simply put to anyone who does not agree with conservative idealolgy who takes action agaisnt the establishment can be labeld a terroist. The war on terroism will last for aslong as the masses believe it is a war that can be won.

So essentially you want to sit in your home and pretend the world is a fine and dandy place to live. you ... would like to think your "moderate" I suppose..

not going to war = giving into terrorist demands, which means terrorist control us, which means we are no longer a nation with its own laws.. we would have become a piece of land with millions living in fear because barbaric terrorist do not follow your... line of thought.. I cannot see how that is hard to understand, it is pretty black and white wouldn't you say?