40,000 Troops Desert since 2000

Originally posted by stanstheman

Originally posted by grover
Try respecting the people you disagree with Stan...your you idiots and the like make you look worse and worse all the time.

Grover I am not the "Cumbaya" type. I don't respect people who believe everything they read, blame our country first, and then run around complaining that they have been disrespected when they've been shown to be wrong. Grow up. BTW, I'm still waiting to hear what you do for our troops?

www.woundedwarriorproject.org

Stan I will be the first to admit I am a Troll but so are you.
We are the Trolls who live under the bridge...the one leaving Hotel DeNILE, long ago built for the Exodus.
We especially are the ENERGY Trolls who live under the bridge separating the affluent from the poor.
We the North Americans are the pigs at the trough known as The Last Supper.
The US uses 25% of the resources but is only 5% of the population.
Seated to the right of the main SOW, the US, is Canada the hog.
And with Her military bases strategically placed throughout the globe, the SOW is poised to control the flow of energy in a pigpen / world converging toward resource wars.

thus Lost in Translation:In order to maintain our supremacy and life style choices, our collective is willing to commit murder to acquire those resources for our Hummers and vacations.
And our intellect + denial = WMD (weapons of mass / media distraction)

Quite pathetic.

Oink

namaste

Raphael

I do nothing for your troops Stan, except throw questions at them like why are you there?
Does that make me an enemy of your belligerent nation?

Originally posted by Kachina

Originally posted by stanstheman

Originally posted by grover

Stan I will be the first to admit I am a Troll but so are you.


thus Lost in Translation:In order to maintain our supremacy and life style choices, our collective is willing to commit murder to acquire those resources for our Hummers and vacations.
And our intellect + denial = WMD (weapons of mass / media distraction)

Quite pathetic.

Oink

namaste

Raphael

I do nothing for your troops Stan, except throw questions at them like why are you there?
Does that make me an enemy of your belligerent nation?

I'm no troll.
No Hummers for me thanks, I drive a Suburban.
And no you are not an enemy of our nation but it tickles me that you would elevate yourself to such a place.

My expertise is as a citizen who cares and one who makes the effort to pay attention...that is all the qualifications I need.

I am not the one posting vitriol on this thread...you are the one attacking everyone you disagree with.

That will be enough trash thrown around. Red flags to follow. No further verbal warnings. Act accordingly.

Originally posted by stanstheman

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
It's interesting I'm twenty-one years old and I had a couple of friends go into the military. Of the five who went into the military (four in the army and one in the navy), three deserted and are on the run right now in Europe and Canada. One is actively trying to get out feeling he was lied too and thinks the service is a joke. He also came out of the closet recently and has to go through routine abuse and even has to constantly fight physically with fools who seem to have a problem with that. And the fifth wound up in a psych ward after his second tour in Iraq.

I don't buy these numbers. Consider the source.

Your friends show a certain lack of character with exception of your gay friend who should be able to serve if he wants to. "Routine abuse" is wrong and it shouldn't happen.

You have the right to your opinion and I respect that you have one but I disagree with you. The three guys in question I speak of were in front line units serving in Afganistan and in Iraq, all were upstanding citizens in that they got good grades in school, went to church, and aside from an occasional beer they all were straight edge. They enlisted out of high school because they felt it was their patrotic duty, they weren't looking for anything like money for school or for benefits, they served because they felt it was the right thing and because they believed in their country. We all came from an extremely patrotic neighborhood, we were raised by vietnam vets and most of our relatives had served... many of our brothers were Desert Storm vets (incidently many of them came back really screwed up with severe mental problems) when they came back from their first tour they didn't want to talk about what they had seen or done over there only saying things such as "It's really messed up over there" and that they didn't believe this war was accomplishing anything but they were glad they did and they were happy that they thought they were finished... then they got called back for a second tour, and a lot of their benefits got pulled, and the situation got worse by the day over there. One left for Europe at this point but the other two continued to serve. The breaking point for the other one of the two was watching a civilian child get blown apart in the street during a power struggle between two local war lords. He said that the reaction of his superiors was one of indifference because we needed the support of the war lords to keep peace. He's off in Canada right now petitioning the government to stay. And the last one, after attempting suicide several times and breaking up with his girlfriend of three years decided he had enough when they were going to send him back. We haven't heard from him in awhile.

These were three typical American kids who believed in their country and in their government. Most of us from the neighborhood love our country but have been skeptical of our government since before we could remember. Living in a racially diverse middle class neighborhood we were encouraged to think for ourselves and to make up our own minds. We told all five of our friends that this was a mistake and that it was foolish to join the military, especially after our parents and relations served in Vietnam and Desert Storm but they went anyway.

I believe in my country but I distrust and I hate my government. I discourage anyone talking about military service because I've seen what happens to those in it. Luckily since those five went off to serve, none of my other friends have gone. Instead we serve for domestic causes. The majority of us are the Peace Corps and serve in medical and service charities. I won't bore you with that because I don't need to prove myself to anyone. But it'll be a cold day in hell before anyone in my neighborhood ever buys anything this administration sells us or before we ever buy into our government again.

I think it's safe for you to sit behind your keyboard and pass judgement upon my friends and upon the youth of this generation. You may have served and you may have done your service for this country, and for that I thank you. However, times have changed and this is a new era of pointless violence and deceit. To quote a song from your generation and to quote a line that many from my generation has taken to heart "We won't be fooled again". We love our country, and we'll fight and die for this country but not for this president and not for this administrations economic and political gains.

I could say a lot more but I'll cut it off here. I look forward to responses to my words.

Thank you.

Your words were great. i disagree about desertion though, it's wrong and it puts the rest of the unit at risk. The units now train together and stay together for a long time. It's not like in Vietnam where soldiers were moved in and out of units, and replaced one at a time. A desertion can cause a unit to fight at less than full strength and cause major morale issues. As far as a second tour? It happens-alot. General George Casey just found out he'll be in Iraq for three years, he was supposed to come home this past June. The leadership is not skating by any means.

You can think what you want about this administration. There are good and bad players-as in any administration. I think the middle east will be better off when we are done, but it will be bloody and long. I don't think this is a war for oil and I think anyone who feels that way should not use petroleum products, ever.

I am not a vet, but my family members are and some still serve. i will always jump to their defense when some poster lumps them all together as uneducated sheep. It's a sad state of affairs when our soldiers need to be defended from those they serve and it makes my blood boil (as you may have read.) I commend you for serving in other capacites, thank you for your service.

[edit on 6-8-2006 by stanstheman]

No it is not true that all service people are uneducated sheep...it is true however that recruiters tend to cruise inner city schools and the like because as a rule people there are more desperate for a leg up in those areas, and unfortunately, education levels are lower.

Originally posted by Kachina America has the lowest literacy rate in the Americas.
This is for a reason...so they can recruit sheeple and seagulliables.

I would like to see your source for your claim that America has the lowest literacy rate in the Americas.

As for the pockets of low literacy that there are in America they can only be attributed to one thing: Parents who don't teach their children how to read.

[edit on 6-8-2006 by craig732]

Wo, I'm not sure I even want to respond in this thread..lots of...well I can't even think of a name for it.

oh, i'm sorry, i must have served in a different military, because i thought the US military was an all volunteer military.
oh wait, it is all volunteer. you can choose not to fight....just dont join up. gee, why didnt i think of that?

I mean that once you sign up, and go to war, and you see you don't want to fight. than you should have the right to say no thank you, and leave.

It is, however once you join and sign your name on the dotted line you know exactly what you’re getting into.

Ha! No offense, but that's one of the most ludicrous things I've read today,
Yes some people know what there getting into, but I'd say about 35-40% don't know.

Then we'd be France.

And what praytell is wrong with France?
[j/k] You know there's a huge nuclear missile under the Eiffel tower that could wipe out the east coast.[/j/k]
Sorry, I had to add that.



Perhaps, if we had all these people who support the war blindly go to war, and bring the people home who don't want to be there, than maybe we'd actually get somewhere.

[edit on 8/6/2006 by iori_komei]

I would like to point out something that folks hera aren't seeing here. We are NOT at war in Iraq. War hasn't been declared by Congress since WW2. Congress authorized the use of military force by the President in the Iraq conflict. In terms of the UCMJ there is a huge difference. Under the UCMJ during a time of war, the punishment for desertion is prison or death. I served 20 years in the military and no of only one desertion where afterwards the deserter was actually sent to the combat zone afterwards. My last year in we had a first-term troop who was screwup and refused to serve overseas. He was courtmartialed, reduced to E-1 and received a Bad-Conduct Discharge. Since he already spent all of his enlistment bonus and hadn't fulfilled his commitment for military service contract, he was required to pay it back. So, he served 9 months of restricted detail till he pay back what he owed. He wasn't allowed to leave the base, all of his pay except a small allowance to pay for his sundry needs was garnished to repay his debt. He was required when not at work or at religious worship to be in his quarters provided to him on base. He wasn't allowed to drive on base. His last 9 months were bascially a prison sentence. Any further infractions during that 9 months would have landed him in correctional custody. You can refuse an order in the military but you will be punished. Everyone of these people who've deserted should punished and removed from military service. All this talk of not wanting to fight in an unjust war is bulls***. There ain't no such thing as a just war because war is biggest waste of human resource ever thought up. I cannot believe that any teenager or young adult these days is that ignorant of what joining the military entails.

LINK

The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

When a person "swears in", there is no caveat "unless I change my mind."

It is a legal and binding contract that people sign for their service. If, for whatever reason, the enlistee chooses not to honor their part of the contract then it is the "big chicken dinner" or Bad Conduct Discharge for them with the usual reduction in rate, loss of pay and possibly jail time.

JDub

Originally posted by grover
No it is not true that all service people are uneducated sheep...it is true however that recruiters tend to cruise inner city schools and the like because as a rule people there are more desperate for a leg up in those areas, and unfortunately, education levels are lower.

My father grew up on 68th and 1st ave in NYC. He was the oldest of nine children to a stay at home mother and a church sexton. He had no hope of a college education. He was given that education at the USNA, became a naval aviator, an engineer, and built his own company. Not every story ends with the military taking advantage. I do think that, you have to ask questions and come to the conclusion before you sign up that when you sign up you are a war fighter, and you don't get to pick the wars.

Also I thought most of our recruits tended to come from southern states? I'm not sure.

Originally posted by crgintx
I would like to point out something that folks hera aren't seeing here. We are NOT at war in Iraq. War hasn't been declared by Congress since WW2. Congress authorized the use of military force by the President in the Iraq conflict....

Not at War?
Sure it is not an economic War? One of the reasons for the invasion...Saddam starting to trade oil for Euros and not the US$.
That really pissed off you yanks.

There really is a crime being committed here then.
But how do you throw the Commander-in -Chief of the world's largest military into jail, into the defendant's box beside Saddam?

namaste

Raphael

[edit on 6-8-2006 by Kachina]

[edit on 6-8-2006 by Kachina]

Originally posted by Kachina

Originally posted by snafu7700

Originally posted by iori_komei

I think the military should be more of a voluntary thing, if you want to fight, you fight, if you don't, you don't.

oh, i'm sorry, i must have served in a different military, because i thought the US military was an all volunteer military.

oh wait, it is all volunteer. you can choose not to fight....just dont join up. gee, why didnt i think of that?

again, desertions have been on the decline since 2000 folks....just check the numbers in my last post.

You make it sound so benign, the recruiters going into neighborhoods and malls full of desperate, uneducated kids. America has the lowest literacy rate in the Americas.
This is for a reason...so they can recruit sheeple and seagulliables.

Now let us rephrase what you said...laced with truth and reality.

"oh wait, it is all volunteer. you can choose not to murder....just dont join up..."

You have a system that sacrifices its youth.
This is a rite and ritual of the Fire Cults.

namaste

Raphael

The lowest literacy rate of the Americas? Have you ever heard of MEXICO? Now, I realize that's not much of a bragging point, but there's also the entire Central- and South American areas! Are you kidding me?!?

[edit on 6-8-2006 by btbomber]

Originally posted by iori_komei
Ha! No offense, but that's one of the most ludicrous things I've read today,
Yes some people know what there getting into, but I'd say about 35-40% don't know.

You know what I call that? Tough S, this is the military, and you're a grown adult, if you don't consider the fact that you could possibly go to war then you have no one to blame but yourself. Besides there are many jobs and branches which can suit someone who does not want to be on the front lines. Now, to end this once and for all, you cannot have a military if anyone can just get up and leave with no consequences.

Originally posted by JIMC5499
[
As far as the killing of innocent women and children goes you are talking about very few incidents when the size of the Iraq and Afghanistan operations.

Yes, a very few incidents that were not necessary in the first place. You been over there, Bud? The "very few" incidents you will see in Iraq will haunt you for the rest of your life. Nothing says "Prozac and addiction" like the haunting memory of dead children.

Everyone wants to talk about supporting the troops, helping those who return with scars. How about not sending them over there?

You people who think this war is great and the soldiers who fight it are heroes should put on a uniform and request a deploying unit for your first duty station.

Go, and come back home to dream dreams of personally treating the sucking chest wound of a little girl you accidentally shot. It sure makes it hard to live, trust me.

Do me a favor, war supporters, "supporters of our troops"; dont do me any favors.

These actions pale in compairison with the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing. It is a shame that some of your outrage can't be directed at them.

There were no insurgents in Iraq before we invaded them. It is a shame you are too ignorant to understand that.

Sincerely,
Cavscout, 19DELTA, Reconnaissance Specialist,
70% disabled combat veteran, Sadr City, Iraq 03’ 04’ initial invasion expeditionary forces.

Wow, a lot of very emotional responses in this thread. I guess given the topic that's to be expected.

Originally posted by stanstheman
If you join the military for anything else than to be a war fighter than you have joined for the wrong reason. That's where the whole gun thing comes into play. Get it? College money is secondary, job training is secondary, everything is second to war fighting.

Your time would be better spent helping out the soldiers who did go to war and came back injured than by sitting at your mother's computer and spouting off about things you know very little about, and wouldn't have the balls for even if you did. You think this war is stupid? Then shut up and do something that makes a difference. As a veteran you should be ashamed to be told that.

You could say the same thing for staunch supporters of the war. If you support it so much then you should enlist and go put yourself in the middle of a sunni/shia civil war. If you don't enlist, that makes you a hypocrit.

Now I understand if you have served in the past, or if you're too old to enlist (the enlistment age is now 42 years old btw). That's an entirely different matter. But far too often I hear people my age (21-25) saying how much they love George Bush for defending our country and how unpatriotic people are for not supporting the president during times of war and yet when you ask those same people when they are going to enlist and give their support for the war effort they start stuttering and stammering about finishing college and achieving their career goals and having a family to worry about...

There's also something to be said about a president who used his daddy's political connections to dodge the Vietnam draft but doesn't think twice about sending legitimate soldiers to die in his own modern day Vietnam.

Anyways...just my 2¢

Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by iori_komei
Ha! No offense, but that's one of the most ludicrous things I've read today,
Yes some people know what there getting into, but I'd say about 35-40% don't know.

You know what I call that? Tough S, this is the military, and you're a grown adult, if you don't consider the fact that you could possibly go to war then you have no one to blame but yourself. Besides there are many jobs and branches which can suit someone who does not want to be on the front lines. Now, to end this once and for all, you cannot have a military if anyone can just get up and leave with no consequences.

With that attitude, you're correct, however if you have an intellignet free population, than you could.


Anyways, I'm not taking part in this thread anymore, to much...violence and unintelligence on both sides.

Sincerely,
Cavscout, 19DELTA, Reconnaissance Specialist,
70% disabled combat veteran, Sadr City, Iraq 03’ 04’ initial invasion expeditionary forces.

I feel your pain...Cavscout

First your country takes your soul with lies...followed by a physical sacrifice and now your countrymen want what's left, your voice.

namaste

Raphael