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40,000 Troops Desert since 2000

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posted on Aug, 5 2006 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by iori_komei
I think the military should be more of a voluntary thing, if you want to fight, you fight, if you don't, you don't.


Last time I checked joining the military was voluntary . The problem here is the tendency for the last 30 years to try to use the military as a social program. You can't get a job, join the military for an education or training and get money for college.

As far as the killing of innocent women and children goes you are talking about very few incidents when the size of the Iraq and Afghanistan operations. I'm not condoning what happened and if there is sufficient evidence then the guilty deserve every bit of punishment that comes their way. I do get pissed off when you try to tarnish everyone with the actions of a few. These actions pale in compairison with the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing. It is a shame that some of your outrage can't be directed at them.




posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by stanstheman

Funny the Army found my husband at the University of Pennsylvania, that's an Ivy League school. And my two brothers-in-law have four graduate degrees between them including MBAs. I can only guess that you haven't tried to get in to our military because it isn't as easy as you think. Sure there are some dumb soldiers who didn't get good counseling before they joined, but really how dare you talk about my country's military that way? Your ignorance is blinding, you should stop posting until you educate yourself, honestly it's a teensy bit sad. And namaste right back atcha.


[edit on 5-8-2006 by stanstheman]


Did the army recruit your husband for the front lines?
Have you seen the film 911? Remember this scene?
Where the highly educated / indoctrinated tank operator is listening to a heavy metal band as he focuses on killing the enemy? Looks to be about 20.
What does he know of the Neo-Con, or oil stock manipulations?

Do you have a difficult time in someone like myself not seeing the need to support a military-industrial complex that provides the backbone for the most belligerent nation on the earth today?

I only question an intelligence that would want to join the military.
It is simply beyond my comprehension. Uncle Sam wants you!
To fight in another Vietnam, Iraq or perhaps to train Contras using illegal drug money provided by the CIA, in effect to kill innocent Nicaraguans who had different political views than the average below-educated American thousands of miles away watching low brow info-tainment.
Thus MBA’s mean nothing when measuring the size of one’s heart, hearts that are very effective when using your intuition.
The size of a brain only impresses me when used compassionately.

But that is what makes you an American and me a Canadian.
It is not part of our psyche, to defend our position as numero uno and declare ourselves righteous world police.


Snafu said: you might want to try and sell that line of crap to someone who hasnt actually served in said military and therefore doesnt know any better.

basically what you just said is that the US military is full of illiterate idiots. care to back that up with some sources?


Yes there are many desperate, illiterate, men and women right now in Iraq, and they haven’t a clue what they are fighting for…same thing could be said about Vietnam…etc.

In regards to sources Snafu, I need only post the countless photos of your military engaged in conflict overseas…these are my sources, a personal indictment of the idiots…so how many fools photos shall I post?
Not really idiots though…you referred to your countrymen that way…I prefer to call them the sheeple that have been lead astray, prodded and nipped, full of fear, of the wolves wearing terrorist sheepskin and there are also the seagulliables, scurrying about the malls consuming mine, mine, mine.
Both are fed a daily dose of Pax-Americana by all those who help manufacture consent CNN and Fox are examples.
Sorry I don’t support your war efforts.
Your country has murdered far too many innocents overseas.
I am glad you support your husbands, brothers, sisters, and wives returning from conflicts overseas.
They need your support…in their hearts they know they have sinned.

Namaste

Raphael



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 05:59 AM
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Originally posted by Kachina


Yes there are many desperate, illiterate, men and women right now in Iraq, and they haven’t a clue what they are fighting for…same thing could be said about Vietnam…etc.




US military entry requirements
ASVAB Score - The Army requires a minimum AFQT Score of 31 to qualify for enlistment. However, in recent months, the Army has been approving more and more waivers for those with scores as low as 26 (Category IVA). To qualify for certain enlistment incentives, such as enlistment bonuses, an Army recruit must score a minimum of 50.

Education - Those without a high school education need not apply. The Army allows no more than 10 to 15 percent per year of their enlistees to have a GED. To even be considered, a high school dropout (GED) must score at least a 50 on the AFQT. Like the Air Force, the Army also offers a higher enlistment rank for recruits with college. Unlike the Air Force, where the maximum initial enlistment rank for college credits is E-3, the Army offers the rank of E-4 for those with a bachelors degree.


it seems to me that you are the uneducated one. kind of hard to pass the asvab and education requirements if you cant read. vietnam was a whole different ballgame....there was a draft in place at that time and education wasnt important. today's military is all volunteer and the equipment and technology require a minimum amount of education before you enter. of course, if you actually knew what you were talking about you would have realized that before you opened you mouth. next time do a little research before you start spouting out your ignorance.




[edit on 6-8-2006 by snafu7700]



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 06:06 AM
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Originally posted by stanstheman

Your time would be better spent helping out the soldiers who did go to war and came back injured than by sitting at your mother's computer and spouting off about things you know very little about, and wouldn't have the balls for even if you did. You think this war is stupid? Then shut up and do something that makes a difference. As a veteran you should be ashamed to be told that.

www.woundedwarriorproject.org


[edit on 5-8-2006 by stanstheman]


Excuse me...what is your problem? I am 50, I am not in front of my mothers computer and I served in the military thank you very much and honorably at that.

I have every right in the world to speak my mind about this war and what the hell do you know what I do outside of work?



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 06:45 AM
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Do you really think stanstheman, that you are upholding those principles, those American principles, that your husband and loved ones, live, fight and die for when you viciously attack anyone who disagrees with you?



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by snafu7700


ASVAB Score - The Army requires a minimum AFQT Score of 31 to qualify for enlistment. However, in recent months, the Army has been approving more and more waivers for those with scores as low as 26 (Category IVA). To qualify for certain enlistment incentives, such as enlistment bonuses, an Army recruit must score a minimum of 50.



These requirements mean nothing on the world stage...the scores you quote are tools to identify individuals who think primarily with their left, mathematical, logical, detail oriented thinking.

The indoctrination process will also red flag those who use primarily their right brain, i.e they see the world more holistically. They see the big picture. The Army has difficulty with these non-combative flower children who want to express themselves through art, love and peace.
So yes most of whom the Army will accept will have played video games, much of their lives, their comfort zone is looking at a screen holding a joystick…killing their enemies represented by the cross-hairs and at a distance.
And they did really well in math.
If this is the criterion, my crystal ball says the Asians are going to kick some butt.
Actually Hopi prophecy suggests this…along with Revelations…an Army of 2,000,000 strong, the Kings of the East would march toward the Middle East.
Math provided the cross-hairs with which we take aim.
It is not surprising your tests of indoctrination would reflect this.

Study symbols and heraldry and you will find great care goes into what people hold in their hands, right and left.

Weapons are usually held in the right hand which is dominated by the detail oriented left-brain and it is considered masculine.
This is why we shake right hands, it began with the knights, and the open hand extended showed no weapons were thus concealed.

Shields and more benign objects were traditionally held in the left hand. Left body is opposite the right mind and was considered feminine, a defensive position taken being the traditionally weaker gender.

In DaVinci's Vitruvian Man the X pose also helps signify this relationship.
(we also see the square and circle represented, very important as alchemy symbols)

And your Founding Fathers also understood this relationship.
On the Great Seal of the United States the Eagle is holding an olive branch in its right talon and the arrows are held in its left.
They had reversed the symbolism…
Maybe by reversing the symbolism they believed they could change the course of events?

Scores mean nothing.
Scores to me…indicate there is a game being played.
Intelligence is putting the pieces together…not just being able to identify the pieces, something I suggest those scores indicate.
Every team wants a team player, willing to accept an assignment, no questions asked.
Can you imagine me in the barracks poisoning the minds of your youth?

Namaste

Raphael



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 08:02 AM
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while that's all very interesting psych mumbo jumbo kachina, it has absolutely nothing to do with you original statement. shall i refresh you memory?



You make it sound so benign, the recruiters going into neighborhoods and malls full of desperate, uneducated kids. America has the lowest literacy rate in the Americas.
This is for a reason...so they can recruit sheeple and seagulliables.


basically, you said that american troops were uneducated sheeple. i countered with the truth. the meaningless babble in your last post was simply trying to take the conversation away from the fact that you quite obviously had no idea that the educational requirements to enter the military were so high, and you therefore made assumptions about the IQ of our troops as a stage for your disagreement with US policy. that's called ignorance and youve been called on it. you want to try again with a meaningful argument, or just admit you were wrong?



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by Kachina

Originally posted by stanstheman

Funny the Army found my husband at the University of Pennsylvania, that's an Ivy League school. And my two brothers-in-law have four graduate degrees between them including MBAs. I can only guess that you haven't tried to get in to our military because it isn't as easy as you think. Sure there are some dumb soldiers who didn't get good counseling before they joined, but really how dare you talk about my country's military that way? Your ignorance is blinding, you should stop posting until you educate yourself, honestly it's a teensy bit sad. And namaste right back atcha.


[edit on 5-8-2006 by stanstheman]


Did the army recruit your husband for the front lines?
Have you seen the film 911? Remember this scene?
Where the highly educated / indoctrinated tank operator is listening to a heavy metal band as he focuses on killing the enemy? Looks to be about 20.
What does he know of the Neo-Con, or oil stock manipulations?

Do you have a difficult time in someone like myself not seeing the need to support a military-industrial complex that provides the backbone for the most belligerent nation on the earth today?

I only question an intelligence that would want to join the military.
It is simply beyond my comprehension. Uncle Sam wants you!
To fight in another Vietnam, Iraq or perhaps to train Contras using illegal drug money provided by the CIA, in effect to kill innocent Nicaraguans who had different political views than the average below-educated American thousands of miles away watching low brow info-tainment.
Thus MBA’s mean nothing when measuring the size of one’s heart, hearts that are very effective when using your intuition.
The size of a brain only impresses me when used compassionately.

But that is what makes you an American and me a Canadian.
It is not part of our psyche, to defend our position as numero uno and declare ourselves righteous world police.


Snafu said: you might want to try and sell that line of crap to someone who hasnt actually served in said military and therefore doesnt know any better.

basically what you just said is that the US military is full of illiterate idiots. care to back that up with some sources?


Yes there are many desperate, illiterate, men and women right now in Iraq, and they haven’t a clue what they are fighting for…same thing could be said about Vietnam…etc.


Your country has murdered far too many innocents overseas.
I am glad you support your husbands, brothers, sisters, and wives returning from conflicts overseas.
They need your support…in their hearts they know they have sinned.

Namaste

Raphael





My husband volunteered for the front lines! At the time he had to list his top 12 choices of where to go after IOBC. The first 10 were Korea. Which happened to be a pretty dangerous assignment at the time, and still is. He also completed ranger school as a college junior, which will mean nothing to you since you are oblivious but would impress anyone who has served. You can't even do that anymore. Then he switched units so he could go on a peace keeping mission to the Sinai. Futhermore both of my B-I-Ls have spent more than a year in Iraq and Afghnistan. And I have been in a Bradley simulator, they're not tanks by the way. These "20 year old, highly educated (I prefer trained), indoctrinated" solders spend days in a tiny shoe box size space that allows for very little movement. There is no AC. If they want to listen to music who cares, and why would you care? Would it be better if it were Sinatra? Geesh, you'd last a minute in that situation.

The rest of you post is dribble, well actually all of your post is dribble. And yes, you're welcome. It's the size, strength, and expertise of our armed forces that also protects Canada. You don't get attacked because we're next door.



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by grover

Originally posted by stanstheman

Your time would be better spent helping out the soldiers who did go to war and came back injured than by sitting at your mother's computer and spouting off about things you know very little about, and wouldn't have the balls for even if you did. You think this war is stupid? Then shut up and do something that makes a difference. As a veteran you should be ashamed to be told that.

www.woundedwarriorproject.org


[edit on 5-8-2006 by stanstheman]


Excuse me...what is your problem? I am 50, I am not in front of my mothers computer and I served in the military thank you very much and honorably at that.

I have every right in the world to speak my mind about this war and what the hell do you know what I do outside of work?


Okay, Grover, I'll bite what do you do outside of work? The reason you have every right to speak your mind is because of people like my family members. And thank you for your service.



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by grover

Originally posted by stanstheman
Puhleese, most of these "deserters" are 19 year old kids who get in a fight with their girlfriend and go AWOL to try and make up. There are not 40,000 objectors out there, just some spur of the moment, hormone driven, hysterical bad decision making. They get found, get an article 15 if they're lucky, get put out if they're not.



AWOL is totally different than desertion...thats why there are different terms for them, and different punishments. Considering htis is the military reporting this I tend to believe them than you.



Semper Paratus, Grover !

G.Houtchens
armchair coach
amateur historian



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by grover
Do you really think stanstheman, that you are upholding those principles, those American principles, that your husband and loved ones, live, fight and die for when you viciously attack anyone who disagrees with you?


Do you mean the principles of free speech?



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 09:28 AM
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I would suspect many of those who would attack my message also subscribe to one of the 3 great western religions known Judaism, Christianity or Islam or the 'moneytheistic' religion born in the US known as the Materialist whose motto is "he who has the most toys wins".

Do you belong to one of these cults folks?
Please speak up and I will point out another flaw with your corrupt state...the result of a marriage between church and state.
Your forefathers recognized this might occur, so they built in a 'relief valve', the right to bear arms.
I suggest if you are so smart, so well armed it is time you took up arms against your own state, intelligence would suggest that is where much of our global unrest exists.
Your forefathers suggested the time would come when you might need to exercise 'your right to bear arms'.

How high have they built the Homeland Security Blind?
Yup, you are definitely the most 'free' country on earth...maybe this should be condemnation, a lesson for what your system leads to.

Stop exporting War, you would think an Ivy Leaguer would see that.
But I forgot, school teaches you how to think but it is life that teaches you how to feel...
And you miss my point entirely...your system of indocrination / education is streamlined to cater to left-brained thinking.
That is the point you are missing...so in some ways if I were to design a test that tested specifically the aptitudes of your right brain, some of your 'Generals' may not do so well...
This was demonstrated when they gave non-aboriginal Austrailan children an aptitude test designed for aboriginal children.
Guess who did better.
Should I find the link showing how poorly you do as a nation in comparison to the rest of the Americas?
I stand by my assertion that a nation fed the amount of low-brow info-tainment I see posioning my Canadian airwaves is not good for the collective consciousness of a nation.
Sorry what I see is something went wrong.
The Power and the Glory has manifested as One.

namaste

Raphael



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 09:38 AM
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good god. transmit your communist manifesto someplace else. nobody here cares about anything other than the topic at hand.

oh mr or mrs moderator.....troll clean up on aisle two

[edit on 6-8-2006 by snafu7700]



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by Kachina


Should I find the link showing how poorly you do as a nation in comparison to the rest of the Americas?

namaste

Raphael


Ralph,
First let me start off by saying that you're an idiot. Hopefully not representative of the Canadian education system. And since you are so cheerfully pointing out what's wrong with the USA let me point out a couple of Canada's shortcomings. Your borders make ours look like they have steel gates across them. Your "nanny state" makes sure that no one has any incentive to do anything more than they have to. Your socialized medicine system is a joke, it provides mediocre healthcare if you can get to see a doctor. I watched a friend die after a Canadian physician told her the lump in her breast needed no follow up. I worked for a surgeon who treated mostly people from countries with socialized medicine, who couldn't get decent health care. Your military is weak, even after Al Queda threatened you. And well, Quebec. Hey thanks for the heads up about what's wrong with America, we'll get right on that, how about you?



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 10:33 AM
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It's interesting I'm twenty-one years old and I had a couple of friends go into the military. Of the five who went into the military (four in the army and one in the navy), three deserted and are on the run right now in Europe and Canada. One is actively trying to get out feeling he was lied too and thinks the service is a joke. He also came out of the closet recently and has to go through routine abuse and even has to constantly fight physically with fools who seem to have a problem with that. And the fifth wound up in a psych ward after his second tour in Iraq.

I don't buy these numbers. Consider the source.



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 10:43 AM
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Try respecting the people you disagree with Stan...your you idiots and the like make you look worse and worse all the time.



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 11:08 AM
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(1) I shouldn't have to point out the principle of free speech. There is an old adage from the 19th century that is sorely missed in these days...."I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

(2) I love statements like you are free because of the service of so and so...it takes far more than the military to make and keep us free, it takes voting among other things, it takes the courage to speak your mind, especially if it isn't popular, or even wrong. It takes standing up for the underdog. It takes the honest work of every man, woman and child to maintain a free and open society, and it especially takes seeing where we have fallen down on the job and need to do better, and the courage to point it out, The military is just one part, and may actually be the smallest part (and that is in no way disparaging the military) of the equation.

As for what I do outside of work... I cook 3 times a week at a homeless shelter, the majority of whom are veterans...I clean up the river near where I live, and I work for plowshares for peace doing graphics for them and more important than any of those things I try and be a decent human being and speak out when I see a wrong.

Without compassion we are no better than our prejudices.



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by grover
Try respecting the people you disagree with Stan...your you idiots and the like make you look worse and worse all the time.


Grover I am not the "Cumbaya" type. I don't respect people who believe everything they read, blame our country first, and then run around complaining that they have been disrespected when they've been shown to be wrong. Grow up. BTW, I'm still waiting to hear what you do for our troops?

www.woundedwarriorproject.org



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by grover
(1) I shouldn't have to point out the principle of free speech. There is an old adage from the 19th century that is sorely missed in these days...."I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

(2) I love statements like you are free because of the service of so and so...it takes far more than the military to make and keep us free, it takes voting among other things, it takes the courage to speak your mind, especially if it isn't popular, or even wrong. It takes standing up for the underdog. It takes the honest work of every man, woman and child to maintain a free and open society, and it especially takes seeing where we have fallen down on the job and need to do better, and the courage to point it out, The military is just one part, and may actually be the smallest part (and that is in no way disparaging the military) of the equation.

As for what I do outside of work... I cook 3 times a week at a homeless shelter, the majority of whom are veterans...I clean up the river near where I live, and I work for plowshares for peace doing graphics for them and more important than any of those things I try and be a decent human being and speak out when I see a wrong.

Without compassion we are no better than our prejudices.


1. You're right. You have every right to speak your mind, anytime, any place. Please try to remember there are soldiers young enough to be your child fighting for your right to do so. Posting vitriol on this board does nothing to stop this war, if that is your intention.

2. What makes you the one to "point things out?" Where is your expertise exactly? Sure vote, you should but as far as directing this war or our foriegn policy, I don't think so.

3. Then there is your power to change. Your actions, not the junk you're writing on this board.



posted on Aug, 6 2006 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
It's interesting I'm twenty-one years old and I had a couple of friends go into the military. Of the five who went into the military (four in the army and one in the navy), three deserted and are on the run right now in Europe and Canada. One is actively trying to get out feeling he was lied too and thinks the service is a joke. He also came out of the closet recently and has to go through routine abuse and even has to constantly fight physically with fools who seem to have a problem with that. And the fifth wound up in a psych ward after his second tour in Iraq.

I don't buy these numbers. Consider the source.


Your friends show a certain lack of character with exception of your gay friend who should be able to serve if he wants to. "Routine abuse" is wrong and it shouldn't happen.




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