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posted on Aug, 4 2006 @ 05:59 PM
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either im getting confused but didnt bin laden first deny being involved with 9/11, could the US "president" tell him to take the wrap? funny how they aint found him. also considering that the US gave most the stuff he is using in the attacks happening for his corse.

i may be talking rubbish, if so tell me

btw it was just a thought.




posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 09:57 AM
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Bin Laden did deny involvement. If he was involved, it would be a first for terrorist organization to first deny involvement in an attack, then months later claim responsibility.

If you havent noticed, in pretty much every terrorist attack on record, within minutes or hours, the perpetrators are pretty much announcing from the rooftops "we did it, bwahahaha, loook at us, we did it and you deserve it, you great satan" and so forth.

In fact, thats how they gain credibility amongst their followers and supporters. It is very much unlike them NOT to take cradit for such an attack. When terrorists attack, they want EVERYONE to know who's handywork this was. Terrorists are very proud of theri work, especially if it is a major attack like this.

Yet Bin laden denied it, and the Taliban even condemned it.

The supposed confession tapes found in Afghanistan where Bin Laden tells all are VERY suspect, and in my opinion, a fraud. The guy on the tape doesnt even look remotely like Bin laden, and its unlikely that Bin laden would have first denied it, then made a tape admitting it, and left it around for so long.

If he had made a taped confession, he would have seen it distributed to every major news network so the world could hear his diatribes about why.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 10:15 AM
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Bin Laden denied it once in a print interview with a Pakistani paper, and twice claimed responsibility on video.

However he has claimed responsibility on more than one occasion. While the quality on the tape found in afghanistan is poor, if you watch the tape instead of looking at carefully selected stills you will see that it is indeed Osama.

He also claimed responsibility in a 2004 video.


en.wikipedia.org...


And please before anyone starts in about him being left handed or his wearing a ring in the afghanistan video, look at these links.

www.911myths.com...

www.911myths.com...

[edit on 7-8-2006 by LeftBehind]



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 12:43 PM
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His facial features are clearly wrong in the alleged video tape. No way is it Bin laden.

For starters, the nose is wrong. Bin Ladens nose is long, narrow, and has a higher bridge than the figure in the tape, whose nose is shorter, broader, and has a lower bridge.

Bin Ladens cheeks are lower and hollower than the figure in the video, whose cheeks are broader and plumper.

Bin Ladens brow ridge is sharper and more arched than the figure in the video.

The figure in the video has a much wider, fatter face than bin laden. Bin ladens face is long and very narrow.

As far as the so called later "confessions" of Bin laden, I find them dubious. Terrorists will broadcast their deeds and applaud themselves right after the fact, not several months down the line.

It simply does not jive that Bin laden would take a few months before getting the news out when in the past, he has claimed responsibility within a couple days of the attacks.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 08:28 PM
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Clearly wrong?

Is this opinion from the whole video or just the still of him laughing?

I think that the person in the video looks very much like Osam, as well as known associates of his. Did they fake the other people in the video or just him?

If it is fake, why hasn't Osama come out and said so? Why hasn't Al-jazeera called foul? Why are the only ones who think it isn't Osama 9-11 conspiracy theorists?

The following pic is from the same video, and it looks like Osama to me.



What reasons do you have for finding the 2004 video dubious? You just feel that way about them? Do you have any evidence?

Why hasn't Osama spoken up about these "fake" tapes?



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by LeftBehind

The following pic is from the same video, and it looks like Osama to me.

::IMAGE::


I dont know I think you are smoking something. Tell, show, do something that actually shows is that this moron is Bin Laden. How can you state its him. It looks nothing like him and he acts very diffrently then Bin Laden, and also Bin Laden has been dead since 01.

But go ahead and prove to us that guy is Bin Laden, we all need a good laugh.

Really prove it. I mean that Make us believe this is Bin Laden.


Originally posted by LeftBehind

Why hasn't Osama spoken up about these "fake" tapes?

Because he is ahhh DEAD...

[edit on 8/7/2006 by ThichHeaded]



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by ThichHeaded

I dont know I think you are smoking something.


Really, I'm the one smoking something?



Why hasn't Osama spoken up about these "fake" tapes?
Because he is ahhh DEAD...



I eagerly await your evidence and or proof that Osama is dead.

But since you seem to think that I'm smoking something heres some more pics of Osama to compare.





Looks pretty similar to me, and look he even has the same ring on.



Look there he is in the 2004 video telling us he was responsible.

I'm not the one making extraordinary claims here. Thichheaded you seem to know more than the CIA or the rest of the US intelligence, so why don't you show us the proof that he's dead.

Or maybe proove that these videos are fake.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 09:06 PM
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Nope, I say again, for the reasons I have stated, that is not Bin laden. it does not look like him at all. Ive already stated why. The guy in the video's face is shorter, fatter, and a bit wider than Bin ladens known face.

Why hasn't Bin laden come out and disclaimed the video? If i remember correctly, there was an article in a Pakistani paper stating just that. My memory is fuzzy, as it was about 4 years ago, or close to it.

Plus, I am not totally convinced that Bin laden is still alive, either.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by LeftBehind

I'm not the one making extraordinary claims here. Thichheaded you seem to know more than the CIA or the rest of the US intelligence, so why don't you show us the proof that he's dead.

Or maybe proove that these videos are fake.


Appearently I do, I pay attention to most crap that is left out of mainstrea, why? Because its usually the truth. And I must be smarter than CIA and whatever cause I just proved your ass wrong.

This is my list, Pay attention now, This is all before the fake crap of Bin Laden has come out, like pre 04.

The Death of bin Ladenism
Need a registration for this site, sucks but if you want to dismantle me get one.


Osama bin Laden is dead. The news first came from sources in Afghanistan and Pakistan almost six months ago: the fugitive died in December [2001] and was buried in the mountains of southeast Afghanistan. Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, echoed the information. The remnants of Osama's gang, however, have mostly stayed silent, either to keep Osama's ghost alive or because they have no means of communication. With an ego the size of Mount Everest, Osama bin Laden would not have, could not have, remained silent for so long if he were still alive. He always liked to take credit even for things he had nothing to do with. Would he remain silent for nine months and not trumpet his own survival?


CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July

Bin Laden has often been reported to be in poor health. Some accounts claim that he is suffering from Hepatitis C, and can expect to live for only two more years.

According to Le Figaro, last year he ordered a mobile dialysis machine to be delivered to his base at Kandahar in Afghanistan.


Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Bin Laden would need help if on dialysis

BERGEN: He's actually quite similar. I mean, in terms of his demeanor and his voice -- these kinds of things are quite similar. The big difference is that he's aged enormously between '97 and October of last year.

This is a man who was clearly not well. I mean, as you see from these pictures here, he's really, by December he's looking pretty terrible. But by December, of course, that tape that was aired then, he's barely moving the left side of his body. So he's clearly got diabetes. He has low blood pressure. He's got a wound in his foot. He's apparently got dialysis ... for kidney problems.

I mean, this is a man who has a number of health problems, apart from the fact that anybody running around the Afghan mountains is not going to be in great shape.


US casts doubt on bin Laden's latest message


The recording was dismissed by the Bush administration yesterday as sick propaganda possibly designed to mask the fact the al-Qa'eda leader was already dead.


Pakistan's Musharraf: Bin Laden probably dead



Pakistan's president says he thinks Osama bin Laden is most likely dead because the suspected terrorist has been unable to get treatment for his kidney disease.

[A Bush administration official] said U.S. intelligence is that bin Laden needs dialysis every three days and "it is fairly obvious that that could be an issue when you are running from place to place, and facing the idea of needing to generate electricity in a mountain hideout."


Karzai: bin Laden 'probably' dead


Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead, but former Taliban leader Mullah Omar is alive, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said.


Bin Laden 'probably' dead

The US Federal Bureau of Investigation's counter-terrorism chief, Dale Watson, says he thinks Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead.


Magazine runs what it calls bin Laden's will

The editor-in-chief of a London-based Arab news magazine said a purported will it published Saturday was written late last year [2001] by Osama bin Laden, and shows "he's dying or he's going to die soon."


Report: Bin Laden Already Dead

Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader. "The Coalition troops are engaged in a mad search operation but they would never be able to fulfill their cherished goal of getting Usama alive or dead," the source said.


Israeli intelligence: Bin Laden is dead, heir has been chosen


Israeli sources said Israel and the United States assess that Bin Laden probably died in the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan in December. They said the emergence of new messages by Bin Laden are probably fabrications, Middle East Newsline reported.


Anyway from the list you can pretty much get my point. I would also like to add, all these sites are not Nutjob sites like Alex Jones and so on. So it makes it much more easier for you to debunk them.

::EDIT::

To add more external crap.


[edit on 8/7/2006 by ThichHeaded]



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 10:23 PM
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I wonder whay Osama Bin laden was meeting with two CIA agents for hours in an American Hospital in Dubai just weeks before 9-11? Must have been an interesting conversation huh? Maybe they were shooting some last minute footage for CGI before he died of Renal Failure. Why is it that all of our enemies seem to turn out to be folks we trained, funded, supplied and armed?
Robin Cook, who died from walking
, gave us some insight into al qaeda as you can see in my signature line.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by ThichHeaded


This is my list, Pay attention now, This is all before the fake crap of Bin Laden has come out, like pre 04.



Perhaps we should closer at your proof that Osama bin Laden has been dead for 2 or 3 years.

Let's examine the relevant bits from most of those links above that don't explicitly say that Osama is dead.



"Bin Laden has often been reported to be in poor health."

"According to Le Figaro, last year he ordered a mobile dialysis machine to be delivered to his base at Kandahar in Afghanistan."

"The big difference is that he's aged enormously between '97 and October of last year."

"But by December, of course, that tape that was aired then, he's barely moving the left side of his body. So he's clearly got diabetes. He has low blood pressure. He's got a wound in his foot. He's apparently got dialysis ... for kidney problems."

"I mean, this is a man who has a number of health problems, apart from the fact that anybody running around the Afghan mountains is not going to be in great shape."

"Pakistan's president says he thinks Osama bin Laden is most likely dead]Karzai: bin Laden 'probably' dead"

"Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead,"

"Osama bin Laden is "probably" dead."

"by Osama bin Laden, and shows 'he's dying or he's going to die soon.'"



The main theme I see is that Bin Laden was in poor health, and that some people thought that he was "probably" dead.

None of those prove that he died pre 2004.


In fact this one from 2002 actually supports the idea that the 2001 video being genuine. They are talking about his behavior in the December video.



"But by December, of course, that tape that was aired then, he's barely moving the left side of his body. So he's clearly got diabetes. He has low blood pressure. He's got a wound in his foot. He's apparently got dialysis ... for kidney problems."



Now to the ones who claim Osama is dead pre 2004.


Let's see what sources are revealed in the free part of the NYTimes article.

Written as an editorial.

By AMIR TAHERI (NYT); Editorial Desk


Osama bin Laden is dead. The news first came from sources in Afghanistan and Pakistan almost six months ago: the fugitive died in December [2001] and was buried in the mountains of southeast Afghanistan. Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, echoed the information.


Sounds to me like he is sourcing the "probably" dead from Musharraf, and one of the two sources you give saying he "is" dead. He brings no new information, just repeats rumors that began in other sources.

The Fox Story.

Are they confirming the report that he died, or are they sourcing a Pakistani newspaper.


Usama bin Laden has died a peaceful death due to an untreated lung complication, the Pakistan Observer reported, citing a Taliban leader who allegedly attended the funeral of the Al Qaeda leader.


I see, so the source for this story is apparently one guy, an anonymous "Taliban leader", who talked to the Pakistan Observer.

So far you have presented one source that says Bin Laden died in 2001.

While he might be dead now, I think that it is him in the 2001 video, where he talks about the attacks. Your own sources confirm that they believe it is Osama in those tapes, going so far as to judge his health from the video tape.

The 2004 video also looks like Bin Laden IMO. However I think that plenty of people would deny the more recent tapes if they all agreed that he was dead in 2001. So far it looks like one pakistani paper believes this, do you have any other sources, or confirmation of this tale from an anonymous taliban leader?



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by LeftBehind
blabla


So is what you are saying is that some guy how has many health problems suddenly gets a new health plan and is superman again?

As I stated earlier I dont know what the hell you are smoking man, Tell me then Mr. Bin Laden is alive. Tell me how a very sick man evident in a vid or 2 can turn out in 04 to have no problems at all???? Not only that gained weight and moves with relitive ease?



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 11:48 PM
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No, I asked for you to source your idea that Osama bin Laden has been dead.

It basically turned out to be one unconfirmed report from a Pakistani paper.


Do you have any evidence other than that one source that he is dead?

I didn't ask for silly comments attempting to dismiss my valid critisicsm of your evidence.


Where did I claim he was superman? Why is it so hard to believe that people can't live through sickness. I have witnessed one of my own family members almost die and lose a leg to diabetes. They are still alive, and could certainly stand at a podium speaking.

Why is it some sort of miracle that a sick man can later do this?



I am not claiming I know exactly where bin laden was or what kind of health care he was recieving.

I am saying that the 2004 bin laden looks like bin laden to me. From what I can find, most major sources and experts, seem to agree that it is Bin Laden.

Even if it is a fake Bin Laden in the 2004 video, it is consistent with messages from Al-queda, and Al-queda has never denied the messages contained in that video or the more recent audio tapes. So even if it is a fake, it does not prove that the US government is responsible for the faking.

He could be dead. However it is still quite possible that it is him in those videos.


So, do you have any other sources saying Bin Laden is dead? Or can we accept that your "proof" is actually an unconfirmed rumor from an anonymous source?

Better yet, do you have any evidence that the videos were faked by the US gov?



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 12:08 AM
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Great info debunk there LBH, my respects! For some reason, they focus like a moth to flame, on that one video. All the while ignoring the plethora of other recordings. I guess you just got "punked",Thick. LBH owns you.

BTW the reason he is seen write with his right hand isdrum roll...............
Muslims dont like to do things in public w/ their left hand. They use that hand in the privy!



[edit on 8-8-2006 by Duhh]



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by LeftBehind
Better yet, do you have any evidence that the videos were faked by the US gov?

Yeah, the CIA and the NSA are notorious for making their false flag operations available to the public for scrutiny.


Nothing concrete really, just a sneaking suspicion...
hometown.aol.co.uk...
Now right before that obviously fake video was released, there was a scarcely remembered video of him, the real him, released saying quite clearly "I had nothing to do with the attacks."
I loved the one where the most hated man in American History comes out with a video telling us not to vote for Bush right before the election. He's so busy planning the downfall of the American Empire, yet he has time to endorse John Kerry? Yeah.



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by LeftBehind
Bin Laden denied it once in a print interview with a Pakistani paper, and twice claimed responsibility on video.


He denied it at least three times, not once. First in the Pakistani paper Ausaf, carried to us by Muhammad Najeeb on September 12th,


A statement carried by the Pakistani Urdu newspaper Ausaf quoted bin Laden, who lives in Afghanistan, as saying, "I don't have any link to the US attacks, but I second it as it is the oppressors' reaction against suppresser."


then on September 16th over al Jazeera,


"I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation," said the statement, broadcast by Qatar's Al-Jazeera satellite channel.


and then again in the Pakistani paper Ummat on September 28th:


I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States.



The Taliban also stated that Osama was not responsible on September 13th.



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 07:41 AM
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Ok, my mistake.

At first it appears that Osama denied responsibility.

Some have claimed that he usually immediately claims responsibility and that this is somehow strange behavior for him.

Does anyone have him coming out immediately claiming say, the Khobar tower bombs, or the Cole incident?

Secondly, I don't find it convincing since first he denied it, and later he and other members of Al-queda have claimed responsibility.


February, 2002

They did this, as we understand it, and this is something we have agitated for before, as a matter of self-defense, in defense of our brothers and sons in Palestine, and to liberate our sacred religious sites/things. If inciting people to do that is terrorism, and if killing those who kill our sons is terrorism, then let history be witness that we are terrorists".



April, 2002

The first charge of the heroes of the New York and Washington attacks was obedience to all of their orders, an obedience that was established before their departure to the enemy's land, beginning with the hero Ahmad al-Ghamdi, may Allah almighty have mercy on him...


As well as many more.

Look at this link. They're all there.

www.911myths.com...

What should we believe, that they denied responsibility at first, and then admitted it? Or that they denied responsibility at first, and the rest of their statements were fabricated by the US government because terrorists don't really exist.


I know which one makes sense to me.

[edit on 8-8-2006 by LeftBehind]



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 08:29 AM
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Five years after 9/11 and Bin Laden remains free to make video and more recently audio tapes with impunity for worldwide release during key moments of American policy. The war on terror has done nothing to reduce terrorism in the world, but it has certainly inflamed the underlying reasons for terrorism. And yet Bin Laden is no longer a priority and remains free to plan another 9/11 attack.

Bin Laden the most obvious scapegoat, ever.



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by Duhh

BTW the reason he is seen write with his right hand isdrum roll...............
Muslims dont like to do things in public w/ their left hand. They use that hand in the privy!


Or could it be from this?


This is a man who was clearly not well. I mean, as you see from these pictures here, he's really, by December he's looking pretty terrible. But by December, of course, that tape that was aired then, he's barely moving the left side of his body. So he's clearly got diabetes. He has low blood pressure. He's got a wound in his foot. He's apparently got dialysis ... for kidney problems.


Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Bin Laden would need help if on dialysis

Maybe he's not using his left hand because he can't? I do agree that The tapes look like Bin laden...at least to me.



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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There might well be a combo of both reasons why to use right hand. After all it's not unusual for left-hander to learn to use right hand for writing, esp. in societies where left hand means something "less"...



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