Senate Votes to FUND the Mexican Border Fence

Donwhite I echo your feelings.

I am also embarrassed and a little frightened at this turn of events.

I whole-heartedly believe it's political maneuvering.
Of course we have a right as a country to fence or moat or trap our borders, but I
don't believe it has place at this time on this side of the globe. If Latin or South
American peoples were crossing to kill, maim or cause terroristic violence, then by
all means build it. Like a previous poster remarked, it works well in Israel. This is
not the case.

Again to echo Donwhite, spend that 2 billion dollars that we all know will rise to finish
the last 10 miles or to include another 10 miles, to investigating, prosecuting and
reprimanding the business owners hiring illegals, but.......

...that takes away the cheap labor that business' love and so do americans because it
keeps the price of a lot of products down. It's a catch 22 of the largest kind. I often
ask myself If I prefer to pay higher prices for goods or keep illegals out. I never
answer myself because I, as well as all of us, have no idea what the reprocussions
would be. At this moment, I lean towards letting them in, 'cuz I havn't personally
seen anything detrimental about sharing a neighborhood with illegals and I'll be
damned to pay $10 for a burger. . Crime you say? There are legals I worry about much much more.

Fences make good neighbors, but only on a micro-scale.

No one has ever broken into my apartment. Should I stop locking my doors and windows?

If someone did break in, would you build a fence around your yard? Maybe. If it
happened alot most likely. Lets apply that logic to the situation here.

Business' who hire illegals should lock their doors and windows. If for some reason
those pesky illegals still get into those business then lets build a fence around our yard.
But those senators just skipped step one and two (two being more locks and motion
sensors) directly to step 3.

Political Maneuvering.

Aight. If every city in America would do what these people did in PA, then sure, screw the fence. And it would be a hell of a lot cheaper.

Pa. city passes law against illegal immigrants

The ordinance would deny licenses to businesses that employ illegal immigrants, fine landlords $1,000 for each illegal immigrant discovered renting their properties, and require city documents to be in English only.

“The illegal citizens, I would recommend they leave,” Barletta said after the meeting.

“What you see here tonight, really, is a city that wants to take back what America has given it,” said the mayor, who said he wore a bulletproof vest to the meeting. He said he had not been threatened but took precautions because the issue was so emotionally charged.

Ok, so according to you guys, all the applicable businesses in that town are going to move out or shut down now, just cause they can't hire illegals? Me thinks not. Yeah, maybe prices will go up for some things. But I'll bet Mayor Lou Barletta's daughter or son will have a higher paying job next summer. If it wasn't so damn cold up there, I swear I'd move there.

Ok, so according to you guys, all the applicable businesses in that town are going to move out or shut down now, just cause they can't hire illegals? Me thinks not. Yeah, maybe prices will go up for some things.

well I never said they would move or shut-down. That's your slippery argument.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
well I never said they would move or shut-down. That's your slippery argument.

It might be slippery, but it is on YOUR slope. One I'd rather not ski down, I might point out.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Originally posted by nextguyinline
well I never said they would move or shut-down. That's your slippery argument.

It might be slippery, but it is on YOUR slope. One I'd rather not ski down, I might point out.

Awsome, because I hear those diry ilegals can't climb fences! Or better yet, those uneducated mekycans don't know how to hop on a truck and drive a few miles down river and cross where... there is no fence.

Maybe if we spent that money on Mexicos economy they wouldn't need to come here. Mexico is far to corrupt to be fixed though.

When we arrest them we should drop them off in Cannada. They shouldn't have a reason to come back down here.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Originally posted by nextguyinline
well I never said they would move or shut-down. That's your slippery argument.

It might be slippery, but it is on YOUR slope. One I'd rather not ski down, I might point out.

I'm sorry but I don't see any slope in my argument. All I referenced was higher priced
goods which is economics, and traditional business practice. Which by the way, you
agreed with.

Yeah, maybe prices will go up for some things

Maybe if we spent that money on Mexicos economy they wouldn't need to come here.

There may be something to that.

If every city in America would do what these people did in PA, then sure, screw the fence. And it would be a hell of a lot cheaper. A lot cheaper than the fence, or giving money to Mexico, which I'm sure we do plenty of already. (Hell, just check out Fox's Ferrari. )

[edit on 9-8-2006 by TrueAmerican]

I agree that more towns should follow the towns of PA and make their own laws, people say it is racist and all that BS but Mexicos labor laws are far more... racist? then Americas will ever be, you have to be a born Mexican to get a job there.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
...but Mexicos labor laws are far more... racist? then Americas will ever be, you have to be a born Mexican to get a job there.

Now ain't that somethin. Mexicans, racists? Nah. Can't be.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Originally posted by Rockpuck
...but Mexicos labor laws are far more... racist? then Americas will ever be, you have to be a born Mexican to get a job there.

Now ain't that somethin. Mexicans, racists? Nah. Can't be.

I know I know it is hard to believe that another race of people can be racist, especially out side America. Well and Israel.

Mexico is openly racist, their government wants the native indian population to move north solving two problems, obviously the indians leave and they bring back money from the states. If anyone in the world steals from us, like china or some other country not abiding by trade laws Mexico is the poster boy. Send the poor to America to work for minimum wage and tax what comes in giving Mexico one of it's largest sources of income.

But in America we should abide by higher moral standards and .. yeah some other crap like that and let all the mexicans in. "Oh they only take the jobs we don't want!" riight of course that is the lefties who have nice safe jobs with a corner office, the men who work in trades are going to be feeling the tight squeeze real soon. And when their children have college education then they will take those corner offices.

No TrueAmerican I haven't changed my mind at all. The politicians switched positions because of public feedback and pressure. The public is misled by the media--amongst other things. A fence is still the wrong thing to do even if the Senate voted unanamously for it--the perceived need is based on emotion & myth, not logic.

If I learned anything in my years in private security, it was that the perception of safety is just as important as actual safety. In fact, it is more important. People want more than to be safe, they want to feel safe. Being safe is logical conclusion, but feeling safe is all about emotion. That's one reason we put uniformed police on the streets. If Americans feel better with a fence on the border, then we ought to have one, maybe two. We're Americans. We deserve it. We can afford it.

[edit on 2006/8/11 by GradyPhilpott]

Wow, that sure is sociological Grady.

I would be very happy if the fence, in any form, actually worked. And I will be surprised if it doesn't. The results are what would grant the additional feeling of security to my mind, as opposed to just putting it up and spending the rediculous amount of money it will cost. And the more I think of that cost, the more I like the idea of city or statewide ordinances instead of the fence. Cheaper, better, and seriously reduces incentive.

But that's only if we had to choose one or the other. Both work even better Give us the best fence, the best equipped border patrols and ICE agents, and more city and statewide ordinances than the pile of beans all those 1 million latin protestors ate last week. Because hey, we're Americans and we like pizza. Can't afford it though.

will someone care to explain to
me , how that fence will help
get back our JOBS which happen
to be in CHINA !?

or how that fence will help
reduce our obscene deficit ?

or how that fence will reinstate
our freedom of speech which
has been infringed upon ?

or how that fence will stop
unreasonable search and seizures

anyone ?

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
66 senators switching? That's pretty phenomenal... I wonder what caused the turnaround?

But in any case, I for one am very glad to see them putting the priorities right: secure the border first, and worry about amnesty programs for illegals later. If there's one thing I don't mind my tax dollars going for, it is this.

Brilliant. Now you're taking lessons from the East Germans. Man, I love a good slice of irony.

But I'd still prefer they pursue the solution of a complete fence along with tunnel monitoring services I proposed

Hello John Carpenter, anyone? Yes, I hope you enjoy living in your barbed-wire cage, the rest of us prefer to live outside the animal enclosure and look in.

If these figures were pointing at Canada instead, you can bet I'd be in support of building it there first.

Why would a Canadian want to sneak into the U.S.?
The only thing that keeps me from sneaking into Canada is the cold.

Could it be "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome?

Here's a little prediction. The rich elite that use the illegals for nannys, maids , gardeners, house boys and girls, conseguirse, pool boys, and just general help around to mansion, golf course, construction site, etc.

They will hook up their Hummers, Mercedes, Land Rovers, Porsches, Sabbs and Volvos and pull that fence down.

Prediction no 2. The Illegals that will be contracted to build the fence, will build in very well hidden gates for their friends to cross thru at will.

The fence is just a symbol, not a practical way to keep anybody out or in.

On sure way to keep illegals out is to cut off the foreign aid to Mexico, then the Mexican Military would keep their own citizens in Mexico just to keep those tax dollars disguised as foreign aid rolling in. But this makes too much sense. Better to build a fence as a symbol. Geezeus.

I just want to make a small point concerning my experience.

I worked for a lawn care company a number of years ago.
The ratio of illegal mexican employees to legal employees was close to 3:1.
every single one of them made more an hour than I did by a large margin.
Sure it had to do a little with seniority but my point is, my employer saw and was
very outspoken about how the illegals worked twice as hard, and produced
twice the results of any of the legal employees. These illegals were making $11+
an hour, and overtime wasn't frowned upon.

Take that as you will.

:edit to add: of course my employer wasn't paying taxes on them so $11 an hour
was close to half of what he would pay for a legal employee.

[edit on 10-8-2006 by nextguyinline]

Rockpuck
puck, you rock. Mostly. Not sure about that Mexico is all that openly racist though, or that is necessarily talked about all that much publicly. To US citizens, that is. Interesting global perspective of the problems though, thanks.

toasted

Originally posted by toasted
will someone care to explain to
me , how that fence will help
get back our JOBS which happen
to be in CHINA !?

Our jobs are in China? Coulda sworn I had a job right here in the USA. I learn a new thing every day around here, thanks.

But overall, toasted, if what you are trying to say with all of your post is that the fence is so small an issue in comparison to your other mentioned problems, then heck, you could say that about a zillion other issues too. We are discussing one issue. Can ya hang?

Astronomer70

...the perceived need is based on emotion & myth, not logic.

The perceived need is based upon over ten million illegal aliens present in this country right now, with hundreds or thousands more crossing the border every day. I'd say that's a real problem. Not just a percieved problem. You got a neighbor with a fence? I've had plenty of them. And not one fence every stopped me from having good relations with my neighbors. But in most cases they afforded a degree of privacy. Privacy that my neighbors always respected, as I did theirs, if there was any fence present. No big deal. But fences sure kept their dogs from pooping in my yard though.

HowlrunnerIV

Brilliant. Now you're taking lessons from the East Germans. Man, I love a good slice of irony.

You act like the illegal immigration problem just started today or something, and that I should be Hitler hung for thinking of a fence. Well sorry. Enough amnesty first, we've already been doing that for a very long time. How long is this supposed to go on before a secure border action is taken? Fences have proven extremely effective and provide a psychological as well as a physical barrier. If they can barely haul a water bottle to make it that far out in the desert, imagine them having to lug huge bolt cutters or ladders.

Beer_Guy
What I meant was if it were any other people, regardless of where they are from, coming over the border illegally, and it was the major problem, I'd favor a fence there. I just used Canada as an example. Ok so you thought it was a bad example. No prob. It was meant to illustrate that this is not about race to me, in the context in which it was stated. You might read what I wrote again.

whaaa

They will hook up their Hummers, Mercedes, Land Rovers, Porsches, Sabbs and Volvos and pull that fence down.

Yep. Now that Porsche has that shiny new Cayenne SUV, I am sure those proud new owners will have that trailer hitch put on it in no time to ride all the way to the border and hitch up to that fence. Yup. Sure they will.

nextguyinline

Sure it had to do a little with seniority but my point is, my employer saw and was very outspoken about how the illegals worked twice as hard, and produced twice the results of any of the legal employees. These illegals were making $11+ an hour, and overtime wasn't frowned upon.

Your employer is in illegal profit denial mode, and of course overtime wasn't frowned upon. Not at low enough wages relative to the FAIR, LEGAL market! :shk: Lots of great things happen when you can pay someone half the legal market value. The problem is, it's usually illegal in some way. That provides an UNFAIR competitive advantage to competitors abiding by the law, which are hiring those eligable to work, are paying taxes, and which consequently incur significantly higher operating costs.