The Human Shield.

Originally posted by centurion1211


So, if your comment boils down to "ATS talk is cheap", or something like that, then what is the point of this thread? Just more one-sided Israel bashing, or is it something deeper?

I layed the blame on BOTH sides of this issue. Make your point or walk away. Your disruption has been noted.

Originally posted by intrepid
RIIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTTTTT. The defense of the unthinking. I'm tired of seeing this. I would have much rathered if you could have replied in the spirit of the thread........... Logic. Care to? Or is this all you've got.

RIIIIIIIGGGHHHHTTTTTT back at you. Then re-read my original posts on this thread again. I would say that I've used way more logic than you have - without lowering myself to insulting you.

In fact, insults are the defense of the unthinking. Check your mirror.

And I am done with this thread.

[edit on 7/31/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by lieutenant commander data
You forgot to add the part where you outnumber the man about 30,000 to 1, and that the man doesn not run and hide behind a 10 year old Girl, he runs into the safety of a heavily populated Civilian area where people of all ages live...

The analogy is to illustrate cowardice, and the perception of it...you've kind of stretched it into something else.

If indeed the analogy is flawed, it's because we mistakenly said that some guy lifted up a woman's dress. When, in fact, the guy was just trying to get her attention because she'd stepped on his mother's toe and crippled her.

See...it's too complicated to have a happy ending. Both sides are right, both are wrong. It makes you yearn for the days of a good old fashion villian like Hitler...we could all get on board to bury that guy.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by pstiffy

None of us on here are paying any price. The only ones REALLY paying the price are the Leb and Israeli civilians who want no part in this.

I think that's incorrect. I've seen people posting on ATS threads that "say" they are located in that area on both sides of this conflict. Maybe not on this exact thread, but on other closely related threads.

What is incorrect??

So, if your comment boils down to "ATS talk is cheap",

Sorry, but I don't know where I meant this either??

...or something like that, then what is the point of this thread? Just more one-sided Israel bashing, or is it something deeper?

I have no interest in 'Israel Bashing' and I don't believe I have made any comments that have insinuated this. I don't blame Israel for the situation, I believe both sides are responsible, along with the people funding both sides.



[edit on 7/31/2006 by pstiffy]

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by intrepid

Unless you are living in Israel or Lebanon I'd say you are NOT making a stand AND watching OTHERS "paying the price."

Right. So, exactly where do you live that gives you some "better" right to comment than I do? Oh, right, it says something about canada in your avatar.

You don't know me and you don't know how I'd react if placed in a similar situation in my country.

Since you don't know any of those things about me, I suggest you refrain from characterizing me in any such way. You want me to post my assumptions about you?

Do you mind if we continue with the topic? Remember, "The Human Shield"?

Originally posted by Essedarius
The analogy is to illustrate cowardice, and the perception of it...you\'ve kind of stretched it into something else.

Yeah, I have stretched it into something else... It\'s called reality.

Originally posted by Essedarius
If indeed the analogy is flawed, it\'s because we mistakenly said that some guy lifted up a woman\'s dress. When, in fact, the guy was just trying to get her attention because she\'d stepped on his mother\'s toe and crippled her.

You can not cripple a woman by stepping on her toe. This analogy is even more off point than your first one, but not for that reason.

Originally posted by Essedarius
See...it\'s too complicated to have a happy ending. Both sides are right, both are wrong. It makes you yearn for the days of a good old fashion villian like Hitler...we could all get on board to bury that guy.

I have not said anywhere that this is going to end happily. I agree that both sides have been both right and wrong, though.


EDIT Sorry about all the \\\\\\\\\'s, this damned proxy spams up when I post quote marks.


[edit on 31-7-2006 by lieutenant commander data]

Originally posted by intrepid
The defense of the unthinking. I'm tired of seeing this. I would have much rathered if you could have replied in the spirit of the thread........... Logic. Care to? Or is this all you've got.

Thats just it, there is nothing logical in any of these events in the Middle East.

If Israel cannot see that there is a direct correlation between how many innocent civilians they kill and the amount of people who want to destroy Israel, then they are doomed to that fate.

If Hezbollah cannot see that for every innocent civilian they kill they increase Israel's public resolve to demolish their entire country, they are doomed to that fate.

I stand by your comments regarding who is ultimately responsible for the deaths of the so-called human shields. It is ultimately those who pull the trigger that are responsible for the deaths of the innocents. Why? Because IF they didnt pull the trigger those innocents would still be alive today.

I wonder if Israel would hold fire if the human shields were Israeli women and children? Would any of those who dismiss these deaths as a part and parcel of war be willing to launch a precision guided missile into their family home, with their own relatives still in it, if it was occupied by a terrorist?

If these people would hold fire in the above hypothetical then they are guilty of willfully killing innocent people because they are not the same as them. That is racism and killing human shields is murder.

There is a reason the tactic exists in the first place, it's because GENERALLY human beings dont kill innocent children in this day and age. Regardless of the final aim.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Originally posted by Snazuolu

your over confidence in diplomacy is your weakness...you think for 1 second that hezzie would even talk to you in the first palce??

Maybe someone with your attitude they wouldn't talk to but thats just my opinion. Anyway who was the one that wanted to talk about a making a trade and who just went to fighting? It wasn't Hizbollah. After their kidnapping they made their demands without further attack. Israel chose this path to attack and destroy.

Also for a terrorist outfit, they showed a lot of restraint during that so called 48hr truce that Israel kinda-sorta had their fingers crossed behind their back on and Hizbollah didn't fire a shot during the whole thing. I doubt many terrorist outfits honor truces, but thats probably why only several countries consider them terrorists.






[edit on 31-7-2006 by ThePieMaN]

Hezzie, like all other islam terrorists ONLY can think about the destruction of Israel. if you think Hezzie would discuss diplomacy with someone who isn't a muslim, then you might be a tree hugger.

Originally posted by Snazuolu

Hezzie, like all other islam terrorists

Man, you have to research before you speak. Hezbollah is only considered a terrorist in three countries. USA, Canada and Israel. No other country in the world considers them one(link). They are a legitimate govermental body with 36 seats in parliament (link) and they have a militia wing within it.

like all other islam terrorists ONLY can think about the destruction of Israel.

Right I am sure that is all they do.

if you think Hezzie would discuss diplomacy with someone who isn't a muslim, then you might be a tree hugger.

I'd much rather be considered a tree hugger than a racist war-mongerer, but thats me


[edit on 7/31/2006 by pstiffy]

no tree hugger every did anything good as far as i'm concerned!!! call me a war monger thats ok coz i know Israel will always be on top.

Originally posted by pstiffy

Originally posted by Snazuolu

Hezzie, like all other islam terrorists

Man, you have to research before you speak. Hezbollah is only considered a terrorist in three countries. USA, Canada and Israel. No other country in the world considers them one(link). They are a legitimate govermental body with 36 seats in parliament (link) and they have a militia wing within it.

like all other islam terrorists ONLY can think about the destruction of Israel.

Right

I am sure that is all they do.

if you think Hezzie would discuss diplomacy with someone who isn't a muslim, then you might be a tree hugger.

I'd much rather be considered a tree hugger than a racist war-mongerer, but thats me

[edit on 7/31/2006 by pstiffy]

since the US is leading the war on terrorism, if they consider hezzie a terrorist group, then they ARE a terrorist group.

Then here's one for you Snazu..




(That's making the rounds in the email from the warmonger crowd.)

And heres the reason for the above picture...

Imo, justifying hiding among civilians because you are undermanned is equivalent to using homicide bombers among civilians because you are under-gunned.

I have brought up the human shield topic with both hezbollah and Iran. They strategically place a cache of weapons in a highly populated area and cry "foul" when human lives are lost during the destruction of the weapons cache. Headquarters of the Hezbollah are placed in populated areas. See the trend???
Cowards are the militants that wear hoods when decapitating an innocent victim and then claim it is for the glory of Allah. I would hardly call a person a coward when they pick up a weapon and engage in a battle with bullets flying all around.

I don't agree with the all out approach Israel is taking, but I can see the level of frustration with constant suicide bombings and missiles lobbed from Lebanon and Gaza. I don't pretend to know the entire history of Israel or the plight of the Jews, but I do know they have been under constant attack since WWII. They have lost many citizens and soldiers since that time.

War is bad stuff. People die, other countries posture, and we move closer to a large devastating conflict.

Originally posted by Essedarius
I think there is an important distinction that needs to be made between "collateral damage", which is the responsibility of the aggressor...and a "human shield", which is the responsibility of the defender.

Why? A shield is only a shield if someone is attacking.

Both are equally deplorable outcomes.

Can some one tell me whats so brave about launching rockets from 30,000ft? Or launching cruise missiles from ships 2,000 miles away? Since when has the United States, or Israel, gone for a fair and balanced approach to power in warfare?

[edit on 1/8/06 by subz]

Ok, so let's get this straight:

Hezbollah deliberately targets Israeli civilians with suicide bombers aiming for maximum kill rate on a regular basis. They lob unguided rockets into civilian populated areas. They celebrate this openly and without remorse. In fact, they even proclaim without equivication that they want to see Israel and it's people effectively "eliminated."

They are suspected of hiding significant arms caches in mosques and homes. (Yes, I say suspected because unless YOU'VE been there, it's all speculation.)

They have no outright uniform to distinguish themselves from the civilian population of Lebenon. (Why do you think the legitimate armies of the world wear a uniform? To distiguish themselves from civilians and opposing armies.)

How do you reason with someone that openly states they want you dead? You don't. How do you fight an enemy that refuses to distinguish itself from it's civilian population? IMO, the only way to eliminate the threat is to punish the civilian population to the point where it's no longer viable for them to support Hezbollah. Pretty? Not by any stretch of the imagination. But as has been said many times in the past, "War is hell."

[edit on 8/1/06 by surfinguru]

Suicide bombers are a kind of human shield. Anyone who pays a kid 25,000 to go blow himself and a bunch of people up is seriously deranged and a coward.

It's the nature of guerilla warfare, this hiding of lauchers in the bedrooms and backrooms of civilians.

A tragedy all around.

Originally posted by clearwater
Suicide bombers are a kind of human shield. Anyone who pays a kid 25,000 to go blow himself and a bunch of people up is seriously deranged and a coward.

A tragedy all around.

Deranged? I'll give you that but a coward? Would YOU blow yourself up for ANY amount of money?

To the Bold, a definate fact. A freaking tragedy, for all of the innocents.

This is a little off topic though as we are talking about Hez mingling with the populous to send their arms towards Israel.