Justice for Palestine aswell

With the horrible crisis still going on in lebanon, the amount of civilian deaths has created a better understanding of the situation in the middle east. I am hoping to try to bring a positive from this situation, and try to help make people aware of the injustices that Palestinians haf sufferd. We constantly hear about terroist suicide bombings in Israel, and the amount of innocent civilians deaths that occur from them. I will try to present to you the other view of the conflict.

Firstly i will start with some commin knowledge, about the Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.

From 1967 to 1988 more than 600,000 Palestinians have been held in Israeli jail for periods ranging from one week to life.
According to the Israeli Human Rights Organization B’tselem, 2,755 Palestinians were by 3 October 2002 detained or imprisoned by IDF and 1,306 were detained or imprisoned by Israeli Prisons Service (does not include Palestinians held by Israel Police Force).
According to B’Tselem some 85% of Palestinian detainees have been tortured during interrogation.

]www.pchrgaza.org...

Also note that this statistics are from 2002, and many more arrests have been made since that time.


Now lets see how many murders of innocent civilians the IDF have committed in Palestine.

1378 were killed in the West Bank
1336 were killed in the Gaza strip

Thats a total of 2714, civilians. And of those,

614 were children under age 17
418 were killed in assassination operations, including at least 154 of the total number of killed in assassinations) bystanders, of whom 44 were children.

www.pchrgaza.org...

Also this is another extract from a UN report of the situation in Gaaza.

Almost half the population of Gaza Strip are children, who are living in a evnviroment of violence, fear, and insercuity. Since 28 June, 71 Palestinians have been killed and 197 injured during Israel Defense Force (IDF) incursions and artillery shelling, IAF air strikes or in disputed circumstances.

www.pchrgaza.org...


Also finaly here is one more link to the same site, as giving in my sources.
www.pchrgaza.org...
If you are intrested to see in more detail IDF war crimes in Palestine go to that link, and see in detail each and every murder. Learn the names of the people who have been killed, try to empathize with their families circumstances.
Well i do hope that people do have more sympathy for Palestine after reading this than befor.




[edit on 093131p://upMonday by wang]

[edit on 093131p://upMonday by wang]

I'm curious...why didn't you include the number of Israelis murdered by Palestinian suicide bombers and other acts of terrorism?

In another thread regarding the current conflict, you said that you were on neither side, and then went on to praise Hezbollah for having "more courage than ever" and then listed everything that Israel needed to do to bring this conflict to an end. No mention of what Hezbollah had to do.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but please don't try to couch it in terms of a non-biased position. Have enough courage to admit that you are anti-Israeli.

Originally posted by bombers8
I'm curious...why didn't you include the number of Israelis murdered by Palestinian suicide bombers and other acts of terrorism?

In another thread regarding the current conflict, you said that you were on neither side, and then went on to praise Hezbollah for having "more courage than ever" and then listed everything that Israel needed to do to bring this conflict to an end. No mention of what Hezbollah had to do.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but please don't try to couch it in terms of a non-biased position. Have enough courage to admit that you are anti-Israeli.

Originally posted by wangWe constantly hear about terroist suicide bombings in Israel, and the amount of innocent civilians deaths that occur from them. I will try to present to you the other view of the conflict.

As i stated in my first post, i know that their are alot of civilian deaths from suicide bombings in Israel by Palestinians, but we do hear about their deaths every time it happens. When people die in Palestine, it is pushed under the rug, all im trying to do is represent the side that doesnt get represented in the media.
I am on neither side, I am not anti-Israeli, or anti-semitic.
If you want to bring anther thread into this, what i stated was this

Orignally posted by wangHezbollah has more courage than ever, even if Israel is successful in this war, it wont be over. Israel needs to stop standing over its arab neighbours, their is a division in the middle east between the arab nations and Israel. Through long term diplomacy the situation can be fixed, if Israel is willing to compromise, compassion and understanding to its neighbours rather than smart bombs.

When i said hezbollah has more courage than ever, this is because of the atttacks on lebanon has created a bigger reason for hezbollah to fight back. Now with the arab world behind it, it will only get stronger. Violence only creates more violence. Israel may win this battle, but the war will continue even at greater intensity after this crisis has died down.
The way that Israel think it compareable to a Stalin quote. “Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.” As we all know Stalin was a tyrant, and its sad that Israel are thinking the same way.

Also here are some more sources backing up my previous statements.
Children first.

783 Palestinian children (under the age of 18) have been killed by the Israeli army and Israeli settlers, i.e. almost 22% of the total Palestinians killed (figure at 22 July 2006);

2660 Palestinian children have been permanently disabled due to Israeli attacks

www.palestinemonitor.org...
Prisoners.

Since the beginning of the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories in 1967, over 650,000 Palestinians have been detained by Israel. This forms approximately 20% of the total Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). As the majority of those detained are male, the number of Palestinians detained forms approximately 40% of the total male Palestinian population in the OPT.

www.palestinemonitor.org...
Some more on tortue.

According to Amnesty International, the indiscriminate manner in which arrests were carried out, and the cruel, inhuman or degrading and painful treatment to which a large proportion of the male population was subjected violated Article 16 and in many cases Article 1 of the Convention Against Torture.

The issue of torture or other ill treatment of children in Gush Etzion police station was raised in a report by B’tselem,13 the Israeli human rights organization.
The report reviewed the cases of ten children held in Gush Etzion between October 2000 and January 2001, and noted that interrogation methods commonly included severe beatings, dousing in cold water, putting the detainee’s head in a toilet bowl, threats and curses.

www.palestinemonitor.org...

Again these are only snippets of what has been going on in Palestine. I do hope this does raise some social awareness.





[edit on 123131p://upTuesday by wang]

Originally posted by bombers8
I'm curious...why didn't you include the number of Israelis murdered by Palestinian suicide bombers and other acts of terrorism?

In another thread regarding the current conflict, you said that you were on neither side, and then went on to praise Hezbollah for having "more courage than ever" and then listed everything that Israel needed to do to bring this conflict to an end. No mention of what Hezbollah had to do.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but please don't try to couch it in terms of a non-biased position. Have enough courage to admit that you are anti-Israeli.

I see what you are thinking, Wang cleared some of it up above me here, I would say he is pretty centered compared to a lot of people on here, I like to think I am as well but I also know I am a right wing conservative and Wang is a left wing liberal. That's OK, nothing wrong with that, and I wouldn't say Wang is Anti-Israel either, just Anti Israeli incursion into sovereign nations. That's OK to isn't it.. we can't expect people to cheer and be happy that they see death on TV when ever they turn it on..

The problem with posting death tolls is that they are only posted to show support for one side for one agenda. If you wanted me to be against all this war, show me a combined statistic that has the death toll of Palestinians, Lebanese, Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO, Israeli civilians, IDF and foreign nationals and NEVER STATE THE DIFRERENCE. There is a difference between stating that war in general is bad, look at how many souls have perished because of this display of arrogance and showing how one side had bigger guns and created a bigger death toll. I am supposed to feel pity for the Palestinians simply because Israel can beat them? Civilians dieing is horrible, no matter your nationality and the absolute worse is the children. I hate seeing old women screaming when they see their house in shreds, men staring out into nothing, having lost all their loved ones in a bomb for a cause he doesn't even know. It is sick, but my rational is that it can't be avoided.

The longer we build forces and the longer our populations grow the more wars, the more deadly the wars will be, and in those wars civilian casualties will always be larger then the armies. I just can't side with the underdog for the sake of going for the underdog, Israel had a valid point for taking Gaza, for taking Golan Heights, for taking the West Bank, long ago the Arabs wanted to open a fresh can of whoop ass, and had their own asses handed to them. Is it fair to the people born into Palestine they grow up like this, fenced out, running from bombs.. of course not but the same goes for Israeli children born into it. And don't give me that crap about well, most Israelis are actually European. It is their country, simple as that. If Palestine excepted a state beside Israel, was peaceful, cared more about education then warfare for the hope of slaughtering all Jews from the face of the Middle East and where STILL attacked and arrested by Israel, then I will feel for them, I thought they where close to that.. accepting peace beside Israel right before the kidnappings. Can't expect to much good things to come out of the ME.

Ok since people still dont understand the under representation of the Palestinian people, and still ensist i post stats. of Israeli civilian deaths. Here is the stats.
Terroism deaths in Israel from 1920-1999 Its a total of 2580 Israeli residents have been killed from 1920-1999. I know it doesnt account for the past 7 years, but seeing the pattern of the stats. i presume it would around 3000 deaths now.

Now here is a a link showing theNumber of civilian deaths in Palestine from 29th of spetember 2000 untill Feb 14ht 2005. A total of 3,808 deaths and 29,456 injuries. So who has killed more of who? Over 60 years the number of deaths in Israeli is the same or lower than the number of deaths in Palestine in 5 years.

Does this show the disproportional media coverage of Israeli deaths?
I am not here to debate that stuiped islamic fanatics have killed innocent Israeli cititzens, that is fact. But i am here to debate the fact the Israel kills more human life than any islamic terroist organization does. Israel as shown has violated human rights, detained and torutred humans, uses the same tactics that hezbollah uses (human sheilds) and killed more innocent civlians than its enemies have ever. So who is really the terroists?

Originally posted by wang
Ok since people still dont understand the under representation of the Palestinian people, and still ensist i post stats. of Israeli civilian deaths. Here is the stats.
Terroism deaths in Israel from 1920-1999 Its a total of 2580 Israeli residents have been killed from 1920-1999. I know it doesnt account for the past 7 years, but seeing the pattern of the stats. i presume it would around 3000 deaths now.

Now here is a a link showing theNumber of civilian deaths in Palestine from 29th of spetember 2000 untill Feb 14ht 2005. A total of 3,808 deaths and 29,456 injuries. So who has killed more of who? Over 60 years the number of deaths in Israeli is the same or lower than the number of deaths in Palestine in 5 years.

Does this show the disproportional media coverage of Israeli deaths?
I am not here to debate that stuiped islamic fanatics have killed innocent Israeli cititzens, that is fact. But i am here to debate the fact the Israel kills more human life than any islamic terroist organization does. Israel as shown has violated human rights, detained and torutred humans, uses the same tactics that hezbollah uses (human sheilds) and killed more innocent civlians than its enemies have ever. So who is really the terroists?

Right so like a asked you, simply because Palestine lost more people... I should condemn Israel?

On a play ground there is a bully. The bully is about 4'9, kinda scrawny but picks fights and abuses the other children. One day he walked up to a kid a few grades higher then he, he stood about 5'9 and on the basket ball team, big kid. Little kid demands his lunch money, the big kid laughs and refuses, what an ignorant demand. Little kid tries his usual strong arm tactics and the big kid breaks a few facial bones. So the big kid gets maybe a scratch.. and the little kid is in the emergancy room.

Under your line of thought the big kid is at fault here no? I should be sending the bully teddy bears and flowers with little get well soon cards attached?

I don't see the logic in this.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Right so like a asked you, simply because Palestine lost more people... I should condemn Israel?

On a play ground there is a bully. The bully is about 4'9, kinda scrawny but picks fights and abuses the other children. One day he walked up to a kid a few grades higher then he, he stood about 5'9 and on the basket ball team, big kid. Little kid demands his lunch money, the big kid laughs and refuses, what an ignorant demand. Little kid tries his usual strong arm tactics and the big kid breaks a few facial bones. So the big kid gets maybe a scratch.. and the little kid is in the emergancy room.

Under your line of thought the big kid is at fault here no? I should be sending the bully teddy bears and flowers with little get well soon cards attached?

I don't see the logic in this.

Yes you should condem Israel, since without your countries help Israel would not of been allowed to commit these crimes. You analogy is to simple, its a much more comples situation. Israel is a small country who army was developed by other countries, so to put it in terms of your analogy, its like a small child going up to a big kid asking for his lunch money, the big kid says no so the small kid goes and gets his big friend to kick the crap out of the big kid. Is the small kid at fault in the alterd analogy? I believe so, firstly he went up to the big kid, second he didnt fight a fair fight he got his friends to fight for him, which in terms of fighting is 'cheap'. Now you may lean to the right and say "the ends justify the means". If so then i will do the ol' WW2 comparision, the islamic fanatics could justify the holocuast by saying that if hitler completed the job there would be now no war in the middle east. Also would it be right just to kill every muslim in the world to destroy islamic terroism?

Anyhow i am seriously off the point. What i am trying to get across in this thread is the fact that palestine is not the agressor that the media makes it out to be, Israel has commited jsut as many war crimes as any Islamic terroist group every has. Israel is not the 'defender' it claims to be, neither side is right but neither side is the defender. This is a war. So to blindly back Israel you are not backing peace and democracy but you are just backing the other side of the political spectrum.

Originally posted by wang

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Right so like a asked you, simply because Palestine lost more people... I should condemn Israel?

On a play ground there is a bully. The bully is about 4'9, kinda scrawny but picks fights and abuses the other children. One day he walked up to a kid a few grades higher then he, he stood about 5'9 and on the basket ball team, big kid. Little kid demands his lunch money, the big kid laughs and refuses, what an ignorant demand. Little kid tries his usual strong arm tactics and the big kid breaks a few facial bones. So the big kid gets maybe a scratch.. and the little kid is in the emergancy room.

Under your line of thought the big kid is at fault here no? I should be sending the bully teddy bears and flowers with little get well soon cards attached?

I don't see the logic in this.

Yes you should condem Israel, since without your countries help Israel would not of been allowed to commit these crimes.
Anyhow i am seriously off the point. What i am trying to get across in this thread is the fact that palestine is not the agressor that the media makes it out to be, Israel has commited jsut as many war crimes as any Islamic terroist group every has. Israel is not the 'defender' it claims to be, neither side is right but neither side is the defender. This is a war. So to blindly back Israel you are not backing peace and democracy but you are just backing the other side of the political spectrum.

amazing... but it is written that ppl will hate the Jews so i guess i shoudl not be surprised but to sit there and say blatantly that Israel should be condemned, thats unbelievable i'm actually shocked to see such hatred towards Gods chosen ppl...

Originally posted by Snazuolu
amazing... but it is written that ppl will hate the Jews so i guess i shoudl not be surprised but to sit there and say blatantly that Israel should be condemned, thats unbelievable

i'm actually shocked to see such hatred towards Gods chosen ppl...

Your shocked to see such hatred towards gods people? I hate to see a racist like you allowed on this board! I have no problem with the jewish community or judaism, the people i have a problem with are Israeli. The Israeli nation may consists of jewish people but that does not mean i have one ounce of anti-semitism in my bones. For you to state that Israel are Gods chosen people, you are stating that others are not, that is indirectly a racist comment. All people are Gods people, not just Israeli's. Also with your signature is also is a abusive, to imply that Israel are Gods chosen people, and that those who dont belive this should suffer eternally.

Israel should be condemmed for killing, imprisoning, and torturing innocent civilians, just as i would expect any other nation should be condemmed. There is nothing unbelievable about it. I am shocked to see someone like you allowed to stay on this board.

Double post sorry

[edit on 043131p://upThursday by wang]

Wang you don't seem to try and see the other side of the picture here, you witness "Jews" killing lebanese so that makes Israel bad, especially since their army was sponsored by America. How is that a good enough reason for me to condemn Israel?

Israel has been antagonized into more then one war, the Arab states surounding her will never let her be and let her go on living like her people want to, they don't WANT war as much as Lebanese people did. This war is not about kidnaped soldiers either, it is about Lebanon not disbaning Hezbollah like they should have for their own good, and it resulted in a military buildup of a terrorist organization which then led to Israel beating the !$!@ out of Lebanon. Support Lebanon, Syria, Iran and Palestine? No.. never.. not as long as I live. Support Civilians? I can't support civilians .. civilians are not a group, a people, a state, a government .. civilians are just that.. people cought in the cross fire here. Feel sorry for the Lebanese? Sure, poor people getting blown to bits and having no idea why is horrbile, but that doesnt change Hammas and Hezbollahs goals and activities does it? If you didn't want the Lebanese civilians to die, they should have kicked Hezbollah out and not given it the light of day, which they didnt and they allowed them to militarize Israels border.

Support Israel for defending it's self so that one day when buss bombs don't do the trick they can send showers and showers of rockets into Israel with out Israel being prepared.. then yes I support Israel for it's premptive strikes, feel bad all you want for the civilians but not for the governments they support. Israel has done nothing wrong to be condemned, to think you can have war and not hurt anyone is rediculous , wake up and join the world here and realization that war is deadly. Wouldnt be war if it wasn't.

Snazuolu

History of Israel: The Descendants of Abraham
The history of Israel commences with God's covenant with Abraham in approximately 2000 B.C., "I will make you into a great nation" (Genesis 12:2). The name "Israel" (meaning either "one who fights victoriously with God" or "a prevailing prince with God") comes from the new name God gave Abraham's grandson Jacob, after Jacob withstood a spiritual struggle at Jabbok (Genesis 32:28). It is at this point that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are often referred to as the "Children of Israel."

It was the God of war the one that chose Israel . . . from amont the other Gods of Abraham.

If you are a believer of the Israel convenant and an Israeli yourself then you have apoint.

But is getting tiresome the issue of God's people.

When Israel make themselves unique becoming the Chosen ones was to be able to push their way into becoming a nation in ancient times they were after all a Nation without land or history, they took the history from other nations that they became in contact with to write their own believes and shape their own religion.

Then people wonder why the bible talks so much about Israel, the truth is that the bible or at least the old testament that is nothing more than part of the historical, persona views, opinions and faith of the Israeli people.

This a nice pro Israli link about their history base on the bible so I would not be seen as an anti-sematic, that seems to be the trend in these board when it comes to the topic of Israel.

www.allabouttruth.org...

Now to the subject.

For what I have seen in these boards lately people seems to forget that is two sides of the issue and due to the fact that our administration supports Israel is deemed an outrage to even bring facts about the other side of the conflict.

I'm sick of people bringing in religion with this conflict, when as I see it, has nothing to do with religion. Well, it does involve religion but not in the way some people on both sides are seeing it. This is not a Muslim vrs. Jewish war, the terrorist do not attack Israel because they are Jewish.

The leaders of these terrorist groups are typically well educated, often from european schools and fight because they want the land, the holy sites back and the removal of the western influences in the Middle East. They understand however that the poor population in the middle east need something to rally behind, need something to fight and die for, and religion was the answer. And so we get radical islam, nothing islamic about it.

It is about power.

Israel fights because it feels trapped, backed into a corner surounded by the enemy. They bomb and kill without regard if they kill a Jew, a Christian, or a Muslim, so long as they are not Israeli they are an enemy. Muslim states use radical Islam, Israel uses nationalism and they will continue their wars until one side gives in, which neither will.

Sure Israel can bomb them into submission, destroy the country harboring them and that will work for a little bit until they re-group and start the cycle over again, not very effective in the long run.

To many people condemn Israel simply on the basis that civilians die, which is unavoidable and country can opperate a war and not kill innocent people.

To many people condemn Hezbollah simply on the basis that the Jews are god chosen people, or that they are entirely innocent in the matters. I really hate seeing people actually say that all Arabs (and Armaic, Europeans and other races in Lebanon though they would be to ignorant to know there are others besides Arabs there) should be killed and wiped out to make room for Israel. I also hate people saying Israel should be disolved and as one poster said "Sent back to their homelands" - disgusting.

I should also add, and I am sorry for ranting that I HATE the stupid "Support Israel!" or "Boycott Israel!" tags on peoples signatures. What better way to divide ourselves so that, no matter what you say you will always be seen as "anti-israel anti-semetic" or "Pro death and destruction of innocent civilians or war mongerer" .. what the hell is the point of that?

Rockpuck, I wish people hadn't brought religion into this as well but the country of Israel has defined itself in this way. It is a JEWISH homeland. Only Jews can go there to live. Those that were there before such as the Palestinians are put behind apartheid walls, in jail, treated like 2nd class people and just generally expected to DISAPPEAR. Their villages have been razed to the ground and Israeli villages built instead and given Hebrew names. Those that were forced to leave, and that was many hundreds of thousands and with their decendants millions, are forbidden to return to their home. Do you think they will just put up with this? Would you? If the British/Spanish/Mexicans/French came to reclaim the American colonies and took over your country would you just let them while you rotted away in a refugee camp for generations? The land that Israel occupies is stolen from someone else and they want it back. You also have the situation of Israel creating Hamas as a means to divide the Palestinians and make them weaker. They could have dealt with the PLO which was secular, non-religious, nationalist. The US has a lot to answer for also in this regard as it also supported the growth of fundamentalist Islam and Al Queda principally as a tool to fight the USSR support of Afghanistan but also as a means to divide the Arab nations in general from getting unified.

In one way you are right that it is not about religion because while there is racism on both sides most Arabs will live with Jews (and have for millenia anyway) and it is acknowledged as inappropriate and impossible to send the Jewish population back to where ever they come from but they can't live with the state of Israel as it is currently. Jews still live in the Arab countries. There is even a Jewish member of the Iranian parliament.

The death of civillians should be condemned no matter who does the killing. It is unacceptable. It is totally avoidable if you do not invade someone elses country and choose non-violent means to solve your problems.

Mmmm.. you do not actually have to be Jewish to live in Israel friend, they would love to keep the majority Jewish sure, that is why Palestinians cannot be Israelis, in mass anyways. Being a Catholic, I could still emigrate to Israel is I wanted to, might be a little harder then if I was Jewish, but Israel has freedom of religion. And yes, it is a Jewish Homeland, it is also a Muslim holy land and a Christian Holy Land.