Will India become a hyperpower, i.e. a country as strong or stronger than the US?

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Which is still a major rift of sorts in terms of consensus.My point still holds..

Agreed that it’s a major rift, yet rest of EU has concensus on most topics, such as defusing Iran peacefully. Also, not to forget, Tony Blair stated he could give up power next summer, maybe Gordon Brown will not be a lapdog, as Blair seemed to be a bit for Bush (no offense intended to anyone)

Maybe 'embrace' was a incorrect term. I meant something like this:
France co-operates with Russia to a much greater extent than any other west european country. Its a simple example of majorly differing foreign policy within the EU.

Cooperation with Russia to some extent is necessary for good relationships, and EU has no reason to oppose such a relationship. France cooperation with Russia is military as far as I’ve known, as those not involve joint programs, or none I could find. The rocky ground between EU and Russia is about human rights among other things, and this position is shared by all members, especially new ones. Russia intends to have agreements on economy and culture, yet without accords on issues of foreign policy or the domain of justice and internal affairs. This was not seen well by EU.

Also, Russia fears losing the CIS to EU, due to increased EU commercial activity in them. Transdniester is another issue between EU and Russia. Though France might cooperate some with Russia, it doesn’t condone Russian policy, or human rights problems. Neither puts the “good word” for Russia in EU. France’s interest is not political but economical, France has nothing to gain with a strategical alliance with Russia.

I beg your pardon but there is no diluted form of nationalism. It may have levels of fervour but, basically you're either patriotic or not. NK is a poor analogy. When you have populations of the size of India/China, nationalism counts for a lot.
You need to be a country to be a superpower. That's my point..

You can be patriotic and question your country, it doesn’t mean you’re a partisan, just that you question your country, that’s what I tried to mean when I talked about “unquestionable” nationalism, which should exist in no place, people should question their governments.
Fact is Chinese people can’t question their government, so their true nationalism will not be seen until they are given the freedom to question their government or not, and the real opinions be shown, not what the state decides to tell.
EU is a federation in the works, and though it won’t be consolidated in a country (from my point of view), it will consolidate common goals and policy, as well as concensus, which would fulfill requirements for power, agree yet?

That's because EU member states existed before India ever became independant. The duration/history of military co-operation is again skewed. It doesn't give more weight to the EU being more of an entity today or give its military programs more cohesion than any other military programs. Israel and India are into military co-operation bigtime nowadays.

EU began to be worked on since 1951, barely 4 years after Indian Independence. Military cooperation and cohesion did not began until well into the cold war, yet those programs had to be forcefully cohesive due to NATO, which main fear was the Soviets. European defense and intelligence agencies worked together, and had a common plan. India and Israel are not culturally close, and what I’ve seen is that the interest is mainly military and economical, at least from the Israeli side. Neither do Israel or India are allied, or tied to defend each other. EU countries are allied, culturally close (despite some differences between specific countries) and have already accomplished military programs, with plans for more.

I'm not comparing SAARC/ASEAN/SCO as competitors to EU superpowerdom.
I'm saying that the EU is body equivalent to these bodies, and just that;a collection of member states. Infact I definitely agree that SAARC,ASEAN,SCO etc can never be considered to be superpowers.

SAARC/ASEAN/SCO cannot be compared to EU. EU is an intergovernmental supranational union, while the before mentioned are just economic associations with some common goals, but that’s it. More info on EU found Here and the Maastricht Treaty under which EU is joined Here

Irrelevant in terms of whether the EU can be a superpower. What you said still supports what I said before. The EU capability is not because of the EU. Its because of individual capability.

I differ, individual countries would have significant less weight without the EU. With EU, they can all pressure countries, or dissuade them. Also smaller countries within EU benefit from this relationship, now being able to defend economical or political interests with a lot more weight behind them. I do believe as I’ve said before, that EU has a chance of becoming a superpower, as well as India and China.

C'mon.. If you pull Kashmir then I'm pulling the balkan issue,the IRA,the gibraltar issue,Cyprus(Greece/Turkey).. there's loads of strife there.
Kashmir is NOT an internal strife... maybe external but not internal..You have the world's 2nd largest muslim pop in India and that community whole-heartedly(along with other states,communities etc.) support the Indian cause in Kashmir.
The kashmir analogy fails.

Does not, and I’ll explain why. Balkan Issue has been solved, Montenegro already “applied” for EU membership, Gibraltar is not an issue in EU politics. Cyprus might be an issue, even though EU does not approve of the occupation in Cyprus, Turkey is already in it’s way to becoming part of EU, and the occupation was not an issue for this, neither does it de-stabilize the region.
Firstly I want to make clear that I do not stand on either side on the Kashmir issue, I merely brought it up as a source of strife in the region, which is true, Kashmir is the main issue between Pakistani and Hindu relations, please correct me if wrong. This is not the only issue, but the possession of nuclear weapons as well on both sides does not bring stability to the region either.

Again maybe I should make myself clearer I feel.
IMHO you need to be a country or an entity equivalent to it to be considered as superpower. By your definition NATO is a superpower.

No, I think I made myself clear above, yet I’ll explain again. NATO is a military alliance, but that’s it. EU definition is above, which qualifies it as an entity, thus qualifying it in your terms to be a superpower.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by warthog911
700 million live below poverty line,75% of population belongs to backward caste,millions of female infanticide,highest pop of AIDS in the world, Yeah it will become superpower

[edit on 3-8-2006 by warthog911]

not that this deserves a reply but we're denying ignorance here..
Could you source the info you've posted?

700 million Below poverty line: WRONG its around 25% now which is 250 million..
millions of female infanticide: ok..not deniable and a problem;but a show-stopper?investment-inhibitior, growth inhibitor, condoned and ignored by governing bodies?
NO,NO,NO,NO..

do your research first.700milion live less than a dollar a day.and plz check UN not your NACO which give false info.According to UNAIDS India has surpassed south africa.And the worst crime is cast system where the govt in the 21st centuray is introducing quota system in educational system.Talk about going back in time

By the end of this century AIDS will be abolished..this century's small pox. And India is at the forefront of developing a cure/vaccine.

REPLY: Abolished??? maybe a vaccine but never a cure. With all of the technology we have, one cannot yet kill a virus without killing the host, too.

"... but maybe if you added the increase in debt war or “defense” has caused, you’d see social programs would not be on top."

REPLY: Hardly, as the expenditures went DOWN last year. Also, Social Security is considered a "non-governmental expense", which is crap, but if you add the Social services to the SS amount, it is DOUBLE what is spent on military and defense.

By retreating, and losing it’s primary war aim..."

REPLY: That was the problem, in a nut shell.

Eight states (Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Maine, Montana and Vermont) and 396 cities and counties (including New York City; Los Angeles; Dallas; Chicago; Eugene, Oregon; Philadelphia; and Cambridge, Massachusetts) have passed resolutions condemning the Act for attacking civil liberties.

REPLY: Condemnation or theories do not mean it has happened. I'm not surprised about the list of cities.... all bastions of Liberalism and Marxism (and poverty and welfare).

If you knew anything about Marxism/Socialism, you’d know Communism is the Evolution of socialism, in Communism, there is no state, that’s why it has never existed.

REPLY: Yeah...... over 30 years of research means nothing. Communism never existed

Hmmmm ..... The Soviet Union; Cuba; North Korea; China... I'll not even waste my time with that one.

And one of those United “Democracies” of “Free” Peoples would conveniently be the US, right?. The world will rather have UN, anytime.

REPLY: Why wouldn't it be? The principles of individual liberty and freedom has been shown to be the answer to the human condition, and has raised the baseline of human existance more than anything ever tried. Why do you think so many millions of people bust their asses to get here? The world would rather have the UN?? If something better was offered, it might be a different story, but we'll never know unless it is tried.

By the end of this century AIDS will be abolished..this century's small pox. And India is at the forefront of developing a cure/vaccine.

REPLY: Abolished??? maybe a vaccine but never a cure. With all of the technology we have, one cannot yet kill a virus without killing the host, too.

"... but maybe if you added the increase in debt war or “defense” has caused, you’d see social programs would not be on top."

REPLY: Hardly, as the expenditures went DOWN last year. Also, Social Security is considered a "non-governmental expense", which is crap, but if you add the Social services to the SS amount, it is DOUBLE what is spent on military and defense.

By retreating, and losing it’s primary war aim..."

REPLY: That was the problem, in a nut shell.

Eight states (Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Maine, Montana and Vermont) and 396 cities and counties (including New York City; Los Angeles; Dallas; Chicago; Eugene, Oregon; Philadelphia; and Cambridge, Massachusetts) have passed resolutions condemning the Act for attacking civil liberties.

REPLY: Condemnation or theories do not mean it has happened. I'm not surprised about the list of cities.... all bastions of Liberalism and Marxism (and poverty and welfare).

If you knew anything about Marxism/Socialism, you’d know Communism is the Evolution of socialism, in Communism, there is no state, that’s why it has never existed.

REPLY: Yeah...... over 30 years of research means nothing. Communism never existed

Hmmmm ..... The Soviet Union; Cuba; North Korea; China... I'll not even waste my time with that one.

And one of those United “Democracies” of “Free” Peoples would conveniently be the US, right?. The world will rather have UN, anytime.

REPLY: Why wouldn't it be? The principles of individual liberty and freedom has been shown to be the answer to the human condition, and has raised the baseline of human existance more than anything ever tried. Why do you think so many millions of people bust their asses to get here? The world would rather have the UN?? If something better was offered, it might be a different story, but we'll never know unless it is tried.

Maybe you’d like to share your insight on what evil plans has UN for the world, I found none.

REPLY .... a response I would expect from anyone who still believes Socialism can work, and who doesn't mind if they are governed/ruled by people they do not elect and cannot fire; by those who feel they were born to rule. History is rife with them.

I was not aware of the German and French situation, maybe you’d like to share proof on that masse movement of doctors?

More than 12,500 German doctors are working abroad already, and 2,300 left the country in 2005 alone, according to the doctors' association, the Marburger Bund. The Netherlands, Britain, United States, Australia, Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries are among the top destinations.

[link] www.washingtonpost.com...

Eastern Germany faces a dramatic shortage of doctors. In the last few years several hundred general and specialist practices in the five eastern states of Brandenburg, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Thuringia, Saxony-Anhalt, and Saxony had to be closed down because vacancies could not be filled. However, with an increasing proportion of elderly people in the eastern states, medical care is in high demand.

[link] bmj.bmjjournals.com...

The purpose of most social programs are to reduce poverty, and help empoverished people attain sustainability, you think your country would do better with more poor people?

REPLY: Over 4 trillion dollars has been spent in "the war on poverty" over the past 35 years, and all we have is 4 Trillion dollars worth of poverty. You can't lift someone from poverty anymore than you can go to the gym and work out for them, and expect a result. There's a big difference between a "hand up" and a "handout." Welfare reform has worked quite well, and if much support was removed ot cut back, you'd see many of those people find jobs real quick.... jobs which are currently held by illegals.

The average annual income for an Indian is $3.3k. Yes, truely a world superpower, or at least if not now, then sometime in the near future.

India is literally ahead of the curve. They # in the streets, build palaces overlooking shanty towns, have high risk of contracting disease, have a caste system which denies large minorities of the population to not recieve medical care, and they want to nuke Pakistan.

Originally posted by Russian soldier

Originally posted by JimmyCarterIsNotSmarter

Originally posted by Duby78
yes, there is Russia

Incorrect. Russia's military is weak. Its military equipment is crappy. Its tanks are easy to destroy, its subs sink even if not attacked by an enemy and their fighters couldn't shoot down even one Israeli fighter during the Israeli-Syrian war in 1982.

WTF??!?!??!! That's a big fat pile of BS.


I'd love to see the look on your face when Russia becomes a super power once again. And it will.

I met with one of your fellow soldiers during a SALT inspection back in 1988. He agree'd Texas was too hot and I agreed the Moscow winter were too cold for me. So, we came to the consensus that mutual invasion wouldn't do either of us any good. He made the classic joke he liked Germany so much that he was so glad that there was 2 of them. I don't think we should let politicians or oligarchy decide a people's fate when so few of them are willing to give their lives to protect the home country.

Originally posted by nogirt
The 1913 FRBA is a moot point. The US did not achieve its current dominant industrial strength until post WWII after singificant amounts of jobs had been created whcih relieve the Great Depression and when the GI Bill went into effect. People began going to school and once finished found jobs on a scale far larger than that of pre WWII years and at a rate which has risen every year since WWII ended.

The fact that you call the Federal Reserve Banking Act a moot point leads me to believe that you don't understand the implications of selling the control of our money to a group of private bankers.

The Federal Reserve has a monopoly on the American news media, they have a monopoly on congress, and by and large (with a few exceptions) they've had a monopoly on American presidents since 1913. Kennedy was one of the few exceptions, he signed an executive order for the government to sidestep the Fed and print their own money free of interest to international bankers. This is one of the main reasons he was assassinated.

The American revolution was fought over who controls currency. Yet the Fed has washed this fact from the history books. Look in any American history book and it will say that the Revolutionary War was fought over the Stamp Act. What a crock of #. The true cause was the Currency Act of 1764 which outlawed colonial scrip and made Americans indentured servants to the Bank of England.

I think this talk of GDP per capita is a bit misleading - it never really figured in USSR's undeniable status as a super-power. I think that China and to an extent India have risen in power, and may continue, BECAUSE of the poverty of many of their people not in spite of it.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
They won't as individual nations, yet as part of the EU, they have power, and when the EU is fully consolidated, it will be a fully fledged superpower.
EU is already an economic powerhouse, with more population than US, and a larger GDP than the US.

They won't either way. Even if the EU were to form into a super state(highly unlikely at present)at best they'd equal the US not surpass it and only if they adopt the free-market economic model(which the French and Germans wouldn't stand for). And the EU GDP per capita is significantly lower than the US.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Individual liberties and freedom where born in Europe, EU has a viable economy. America is not the only place currently like that, and Russia has nothing to do with Europe the way it handles it's country.

Yeah and they died their as well.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
USSR was a socialist country, yet they were Superpower for quite some time, China is a communist/capitalist country, and they are a likely candidate for a future superpower.

They were a military superpower not an economic or political. China is a fascist country. With the exception of agricultural countryside(which could be China's ultimate downfall) China has given in to the dark side of pure capitalism. China could become a superpower but I don't think it is nearly as likely as people like to predict. And Russia may achieve economic power maybe even political power in international affairs but that to is far from guaranteed.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Maybe people would stop thinking that if the US asked the only authority to decide, the UN, when to go and "liberate" a country they deem "evil".
Truly democratic countries negotiate, not invade.

Why? We'd be the ones to do it anyway when the collective will of the UN finally decided that the US could take action.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Any proof to that? Military spending seems to be the biggest expense. Besides, that "marxist"

social programs are needed to any countries development, without them, your poverty line would be way bigger than what you state it is

The military makes up the single largest at $400 bilion a year but if you put Social Security and Medicare together they account for aroung $600 billion at present.

Originally posted by zappafan1
REPLY: This has been brought up before and proven false. The current national debt is only 2.3% of GDP, which just happens to be the 50 year average. No-one "engineers" a depression just for the heck of it.

So how exactly do you do your research ( i responded to your post about oil profits btw) if you come up with a 2.3% of GDP national dept? Do you guys at all realise that the US government does not in fact 'in' that much money and that the US defense budget is actually 1/5 of federal tax revenues? How do you plan to pay of a national dept when it would take your total yearly revenue for 4-5 years?

More interestingly depressions are in fact engineered as they mostly come about due to lack of currency ( credit or whatever) in the economy which normally results from banks simply not extending any more loans when the previous one's expire thus producing a 'liquidity' crisis for heavily 'leveraged' people and business which then go into bankruptcy and can be bought for cents on the dollar. The whole boom/bust cycle is entirely engineered( well for the last 100 odd years anyways) and only intended to rob the clueless and greedy citizens of the fruits of their labour. If you sense a downturn in the economy make sure you have liquidity than can sustain you as the banks wont give you loans when they can simply repossess your life's work and get your completely 'hooked' into their cycle.

Anyways! I am not a economist ( i refuse to steal for someone else) so if someone wants to correct or argue terminology please do so.

Stellar

Originally posted by planeman
I think this talk of GDP per capita is a bit misleading - it never really figured in USSR's undeniable status as a super-power.

It figured into the prosperity and welfare of their people. And is the primary reason the Soviet Union failed. Communism isn't as good as capitalism period. When the Soviet people finally got to see how the Americans and the Westen Europeans lived they realized they'd been duped.




[edit on 3-8-2006 by danwild6]

Originally posted by planeman
I think this talk of GDP per capita is a bit misleading - it never really figured in USSR's undeniable status as a super-power. I think that China and to an extent India have risen in power, and may continue, BECAUSE of the poverty of many of their people not in spite of it.

Unless the USSR had a high GDP, this is misleading. The USSR no longer exist and they were hardly a superpower.

Originally posted by StellarX
How do you plan to pay of a national dept when it would take your total yearly revenue for 4-5 years?

The US does not intend to pay off its debt to other nations, ever. At least with money. Instead we have a policy of outsourcing jobs to these countries and sharing military technology with these countries. THis means we by their products and help expand their defense (military industry(more jobs)).

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir

Who cares? What does the economic power of the United States have to do with private bankers and the assissination of Kennedy?

Originally posted by planeman
I think that China and to an extent India have risen in power, and may continue, BECAUSE of the poverty of many of their people not in spite of it.

Exactly.. All this crap about first eradicate poverty,AIDS,the caste system etc.. etc..
is all utopian pansieness
Absolutely irrelevant.
Its not like the govts are sitting on asses, and neither are the massive middle class (and above). There is absolutely no system on this planet which can effect changes in sooo many spheres at a grass-root level in a time-span less than several decades!!

Btw a dollar corresponds to 45 Rupees approx. and in that much you can have 2 decent meals and still save 15 rupees a day. Thats a monthly saving of at least 300 rupees and if you work weekends, its 450 rupees.In a family,(usually joint families prevail at these income levels)50%(mostly adults) are earning members.
The purchasing power of the Indian rupee is very good in the country. You can have a full Big Mac (Veg) in under a dollar in a city(See burgernomics)
All the above calculations are considered taking into account metropolitan prices. In towns/villages/rural areas the purchasing power further increases, and spending reduces further.
I could go on about all this for pages and pages but this is not the place or the time.
About the caste system:
Again you can't get rid of it in a day,month,week,year.
Those who have been at a disadvantage due to the same, need a whole generation or maybe 2, to be gradually introduced into mainstream society via:
1) educational grants/concessions,
2)programs to tutor ALL communities/earning brackets on the gradual edging-out of this hierarchy.

Infact the only prevalence of the caste system in all institutions(educational and governing/public sector) is the 'reservation system' where various underprivileged brackets get admissions,jobs,tax exemptions etc etc..
This is to help them accelerate their entry into mainstream society; and its adverse effects are to be borne by other sections of society since individual merit isn't the only criterion for getting admissions/jobs etc. The number of seats/jobs can't increase w/o gradual increase in infrastrucural facilities(which can't increase w/o compromising on quality anyways) and so they remain the same.The ones who lose out on admissions and jobs are those who study their asses off to get the same.
Would you like it if your college seat/job was given off to someone who was obviously less qualified/deserving/suitable?
This gradual shift is not easy on ANYBODY and everybody has to compromise. This is even more difficult in a global market economy where skill,capability and expertise are all that count. How do you maintain your niche in global markets while trying to abolish poverty and the caste system? Its VERY VERY difficult!! Especially in a democracy where the majority of the vote bank is with the less affluent.

And personally I find it extremely imprudent for people sitting 1000s of miles away to pass judgement on something they don't understand at all.
I 'live' this conundrum every single day.
Don't bullsh*t me and India(ppl,govt. et all)about it
IMHO we're doing pretty ok.

by Stellarx: So how exactly do you do your research ( i responded to your post about oil profits btw) if you come up with a 2.3% of GDP national dept?

REPLY: In 2005, the defense department budget was approx $460 Billion. The gross tax income from all sources was about $13 Trillion.

Originally posted by nogirt

They # in the streets

No, I # in a toilet thank you;looks like you're generalising.

build palaces overlooking shanty towns,

You don't understand half of it. Read the above post.

have high risk of contracting disease

I ain't sick.generalising again?Also have the cheapest and most accessible pharma industries in the world.Again globalising will adversely affect this.We'll deal with it.

Have a caste system which denies large minorities of the population to not recieve medical care,

Prove it.Tell me which medical body(private or public) denies health care on caste.
Private medical bodies will obviously treat anyone who can pay for it. Public medical bodies charge nothing for the underprivileged(the lower tiers of your caste system).
Again knowingly posting incorrect info on ATS is a serious offence.

And they want to nuke Pakistan.

India has a No-first use policy with regard to nuclear weapons. No freakin western/developed country has that policy. Only India and China do.

India:Nuclear Doctrine
Enlighten yourselves. India doesn't wan to nuke anybody. I think one must look 'elsewhere' for the trigger-happy N-states
I rest my case.

P.S:
Whoever said that the 'education quota' is a step backward in abolishing the cast system, can take a hike.
If you base everything on merit then how in blazes will those who have less/no access to study material ever come up to par with the others?The rift will just widen
I've faced the adverse effects of this quota system and have considered them to be a necessary compromise.

Why is this still in the military forum?!

Originally posted by nogirt
The USSR no longer exist and they were hardly a superpower.

Really?!!
I guess that's why they had the capability to literally walk over the whole of western Europe(all those high PCI/GDP countries) w/o anything except nukes stopping them from doing so.
And I guess the Cold War was between a Superpower(the US ofcourse) and a... plain ol' country??!

".... I guess that's why they had the capability to literally walk over the whole of western Europe

REPLY: "Had" is the operative term there.... when many of those countries had less than they do now to defend themselves. I doubt very much the armed forces in Russia would be willing, or possibly able, to do so again.

^^^
Yeah.. 'had' was the operative in response to they(theUSSR) hardly 'were' a superpower where 'were' was the operative
Of course they(USSR) were a superpower.
Russia wasn't being referred to anywhere(quote or otherwise) in my post.

Daedalus,
I consider it a waste of time responding to the likes of nogirt who pass judgement sitting somewhere on the other side of the globe and have no clue of what's happening in India.

This mindset hasn't changed. They still think of India as a land of snake charmers and Fakirs of the Great Indian Rope Trick fame!!

Much water has flowed under the bridge. And India has progressed by leaps and bounds.

Agreed there's poverty in India.
How about the US of A, the worlds only so called Super Power? Look at their ghettos and the back alleys of New York. Look at the poor suckers of New Orleans. Look at their caste system - ''n-word's' they call them. Look at their pathetic health care. And they squeeze the hell out of their poor by a tax regime that funds their rich. And look at their education standards - falling like Enron's crdibility graph!

The world's biggest corporate scams happen in the US of A and trillions of dollars are spent on wars and 'eradication' of terrorism. But how much is spent on education, healthcare and eradication of poverty? Zilch!

So people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. Amen.