50+ People Dead in Israeli Air Strike on Apartment House.

Then, under these circumstances, let's hear your plan for dealing with hezbollah if you were Israel and had to put a stop to hundreds of rockets raining down on your territory? Easy to just criticize with out offering anything as an alternative.

Let's use the U.S. - Mexico border situation as an analogy. This is only a what if, but it helps illustrate the current situation in the ME. What if, Mexico felt that the U.S. had 'stolen' some of it's territory and started shooting rockets supplied by Canada into San Diego. The U.S. response would obviously be to go after both Mexico and Canada. And who would fault the U.S. for taking those actions under the circumstances stated?

So, what's different about the ME with hezbollah firing rockets supplied by syria and iran into Israel? Could the only difference be that Israel is one of the countries involved?

[edit on 8/3/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211
Then, under these circumstances, let's hear your plan for dealing with hezbollah if you were Israel and had to put a stop to hundreds of rockets raining down on your territory? Easy to just criticize with out offering anything as an alternative.

U.N. moves into occupied zones, till they can Police themselves. U.N. moves into Souther Leb and upholds U.N. Resolution which called for Hez to disarm - force if needed.
Jerusalum is given over to the U.N. Palestinian Government allowed to put offices there on agreement they recognize Israel. Islamic, Christian and Jewish group set up to run Jerusalum as an independent territory.
Etc, etc.

Let's use the U.S. - Mexico border situation as an analogy. This is only a what if, but it helps illustrate the current situation in the ME. What if, Mexico felt that the U.S. had 'stolen' some of it's territory and started shooting rockets supplied by Canada into San Diego. The U.S. response would obviously be to go after both Mexico and Canada. And who would fault the U.S. for taking those actions under the circumstances stated?

I'd happily fault them, if they attacked civilian areas instead of the Mexician and Canadian military bases.

So, what's different about the ME with hezbollah firing rockets supplied by syria and iran into Israel? Could the only difference be that Israel is one of the countries involved?

Well no. The difference would be, Iran is suppling Hez. Not Canada suppling Mexico.

P.S: Don't try and make out as though this has anything to do with the fact it is Israel. My stance would be the same no matter who was doing it. However, why do you take your stance against Hez? Is because they're Muslims? [Nobody is blind, we all know the last statement was to try and bring ethnicity into this and use the age old Anti-semite arguement. It grows old fast.]

I will say it once again as simply as possible....
the whole bloody situition is a mess,
both sides are wrong in their responses,
hezbollah for attacking Israel,
Israel for the indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon.
You can be opposed to violence without supporting Hezbollah
You can be opposed to violence without condemning Israel.

There is no decent justification for this mess and it has to stop or it is going to get a lot worse.
Hezbollah has to stop.
Israel has to stop.
There can be no you first, no you first bullhooey.
They both have to stop.
Now.

Originally posted by Odium

I'd happily fault them, if they attacked civilian areas instead of the Mexician and Canadian military bases.

And if there purposely was no way to tell the difference between fighters and civilians? How would you defend yourself then? Just turn the other cheek? Negotiate? Try to buy them off somehow?

Appeasement never works.

Originally posted by centurion1211
And if there purposely was no way to tell the difference between fighters and civilians? How would you defend yourself then? Just turn the other cheek? Negotiate? Try to buy them off somehow?

I'd expect the U.S. Government to hold off then. Use whatever they can to shoot down missiles and use men on the ground to do the job. Making sure it is clear, they will only shoot those who they know are the enemy. Killing innocent people will never help the solution.

Appeasement never works.

Doesn't it? When has full force on a terrorist group worked though? I can and have listed many times when negotitation has worked.

I'd like to ask for the NAME of this thread to be corrected. Only 28 bodies were found so we need to stop the propaganda.
And remember that the UN already met on the issue and all the facts are still not in. The building collapsed in the morning and the bombing occured at 1AM. 7 hours passed since the bombing.

This could have well been ammunition, explosives or rocketing stashed in the building that caused the collapse.

FWIW, [url=http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060802/3/2nycw.html]the death tolls is now at 28, not 50+

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by centurion1211
Appeasement never works.

Doesn't it? When has full force on a terrorist group worked though? I can and have listed many times when negotitation has worked.

Ever heard of operation Entebbee
Negotiations workbecause the all sides get what they want in the very short term. But in the long term the blackmailed side looses.

Example:
3 israeli soldiers were killed and kidnapped in 2000 and an additional Israeli citizen was kidnapped and held for ransom. israel capitulated. As a result Hezbullah returned to do the same.

With terrorism the lesson is usually do NOT capitulate to blackmail since there will be no end to the blackmail attempts.

With that said if a loved one was kidnapped I think just about anyone would speak differently.

[edit on 3/8/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

Well so far you Judah are the only one quoting 28 dead and until I see a legit, source saying otherwise I say no. When it was posted the body count was 54 on the news...that was the news not propaganda.

You grow tedious Judah.

So appeasement doesn't work huh? So whats left? A war of attrition and to continue fighting until both sides are bled white? Doesn't sound like much of an option to me. A war of attrition cost Europe a whole generation during WW1 and didn't solve anything.
Vengence, which is what the French pushed at Versilles didn't solve anything and planted the seeds to WW2.
Israel has already assured a new generation of Hezbollah fighters for indiscriminately bombing Lebanon so I guess the bleeding will continue.

Odium,
Firstly - I was actually referring to Human rights watch report from thismorning claiming that 28 bodies were removed from the Qana building collapse. Although they did say that moremay be trapped. It would be interesting to follow up on this.

Regarding appeasement -OK you got me there - Lets ask Hezbullah and Hamas what they want. You know what lets be generous to end the conflict. What is it they ultimately want so that we can end this conflict for one and for all . . .

Odium care to answer????

Originally posted by grover

So appeasement doesn't work huh? So whats left?

So, you can't see how pathetic that sounds? Uh, I can't figure out what to do so I guess I'll just give in and let them do what they will. Maybe if I'm real lucky they'll leave me alone and kill some other person. Glad I'm not family or anyone else that looks to you for guidance and protection.

And odium and grover already know what the terrorists want - the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of its citizens. They just don't seem to be worried about that or even care. Why is that?


[edit on 8/3/2006 by centurion1211]

Let's keep it civil folks.

scratch

[edit on 3/8/06 by JudahMaccabbi]

Originally posted by Odium
I'd expect the U.S. Government to hold off then. Use whatever they can to shoot down missiles and use men on the ground to do the job. Making sure it is clear, they will only shoot those who they know are the enemy. Killing innocent people will never help the solution.

Right. Like that strategy would be easy to explain to your own innocent citizens as the rockets continue to rain down and kill. You know, the ones you swore an oath to protect and defend ...

So, by inference, your solution to the ME dilemma is 'simply' for Israel to give up, and take the punishment until they are destroyed. But wait, wouldn't that 'strategy' actually lead to a situation that is much worse since Israel would most likely go down shooting off its nukes?

Might need to think some of these 'strategies' through a little farther than just the next move.

[edit on 8/3/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by Odium
TheBorg, you again take a rather simple view of the situation.

How can they force the terrorists to leave? What can they make them leave with? Or here, I'll kill one of them and watch as 30 others kill me? Even the BBC has reported that they can't speak to people on the streets in Lebonnon openly, due to the peoples fear someone from Hez will over hear them and kill them. Furthermore, the way they do it is they take control of the zone - many of these people have no guns so couldn't fight back, have children or older relatives to worry about also - so can't force them away.

Well, if that's truly the case, then all of the Lebanese should shut up over Israel's presence. Sounds to me like Israel's doing Lebanon a favor, if you ask me. The people that oppose the Israeli attack have yet to provide me with one scrap of tangible evidence that this is their fault. To me anyway, this is just Israel's way of solving two problems at one time. To free the Lebanese people, and to rid themselves of the pest that is terrorism. How is that wrong?

And as for my "simple view" of things, I do tend to oversimplify the situation, but that's with the express intent of making the very true point that things need to change from the way they currently are. We cannot be expected to continue down this same path, since it's not going to change anything. The truth is that it will take the people's standing up and saying enough to change what's become an almost hopeless situation. It just stands to reason that when all else is lost, we all must choose whether to fight or die as we are. For Israel and Lebanon, that time is now.

I just pray they can all make the right choice.

TheBorg

Originally posted by Odium
And? So this makes it fine to kill them? CAn you imagine this in a hostage raid? Ohh...well get them, do massive economic damage and kill lots of civilians if we blow the building up. However, we'll get the "bad guys".

Or let's look at this the other way. Camp Anatot, Israeli Military base is less than 30 meters from houses in Anata. So as long as they missiles they fire are intended to kill them, so what if a few innocent people die?

Ya know, it's fine that you disagree with the whole situation over there and all, and I can respect that, but instead of constantly shooting others' statements down with impunity, why not try and suggest a decent response to the situation? I'd love to hear what you propose as a reasonable solution. I'm sure it involves the removal of the Israeli occupation of the entire country, and withdrawl from the region.

To liken this to a more tender topic; were you even in favor of the US bombardment of Afghanistan after the 9/11 hijackings took place? Or were you complaining about how the poor poor innocent Taliban were being mercilessly killed by the American Oppressors?

It should prove as an interesting aside that the Taliban were created by the US as a way to combat the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Funny how America's allies change so quickly.

TheBorg

Edited for P.S.

P.S. :

Having read the most recent posts, I see that a solution has been set. Well, If the UN truly wanted to do anything, they should be doing it. They instead sit idly on the side, begging for a ceasefire, with no real way to enforce it. How can any peace be reached when the two warring sides don't want to lay down arms? The UN aren't well-enough armed to handle the situation. Not to mention they had their own embassy raided by Hezbollah last week. That doesn't inspire a lot of hope in me, nor do I think it did in the minds of those UN members trapped in said building. Hezbollah has stepped out of her bounds, and the whole world knows it now. All that's left now is for the rest of the world to do something about it.

[edit on 3-8-2006 by TheBorg]

Personally centurian I am quite sure my family is grateful I am not beligerent and incapable of being talked to, that I can be reasoned with.

Originally posted by grover
Personally centurian I am quite sure my family is grateful I am not beligerent and incapable of being talked to, that I can be reasoned with.

That's the point you just don't understand.

It's not about you or a civilized society being capable of being reasoned with. It's that the bad people and societies of this world are not capable of being reasoned with. Which, of course, makes all of your good intentions worthless and you and yours most likely dead.

But I guess you and the others that believe as you do can rest easy on the other side, knowing that you all really tried to bring peace to this troubled world.

I prefer to try and stay alive ...



[edit on 8/3/2006 by centurion1211]

And your attitude is more than likely to get you dead.

The reality is that you can kill, wage war without end, bomb the elderly, the non-combatants, women and children, destroy villages, launch missiles and hate hate hate all you want, damn your enemies, create new ones and bleed until like the first crusaders, when they slaughtered every man, woman and child, Jew, Christian and Muslim in the city of Jeusalem until the blood, according to their own chronicler, flowed as deep as their horses knees through the street, and not be one iota closer to peace and even less safe.

Something has to give.

What part of that is so hard to understand?