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Communist Nuclear-Fusion Reactor set for Test in 15 Days

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posted on Jul, 30 2006 @ 02:35 AM
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China is set to test the worlds first nuclear fusion reactor on August 15th.
The Chinese EAST (Experimental Advanced Superconducting Tokamak) a.k.a. 'HT-7U' had been built in Hefei, the capital of eastern China's Anhui Province, and is a smaller version of the European International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, which is due for completion in a decade.
 



Upi.com
BEIJING, July 24 (UPI) -- The first plasma discharge from China's experimental advanced superconducting research center -- the so-called "artificial sun" -- is set to occur next month.

The plasma discharge will draw international attention since some scientists are concerned with risks involved in such a process. But Chinese researchers involved in the project say any radiation will cease once the test is completed.

The experiment will take place in a structure made of reinforced concrete, with five-foot-thick walls and a three-foot-thick roof.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


The development costs were about 1/20th of what similar devices that are being constructed cost. And Spiderman is not going to be here to save us this time.

Students originally begun building the reactor 40 years ago in that place because of a policy known as 'Third Line,' something Mao Zedong initiated in the 1960s that was supposed ot keep all valuable assets away as far away as possible from the U.S. and the Soviet Union. Let's just hope that that mentality is not in place nowadays, and they are thinking about the safety of the reactor and NOT how safe it is from CIA saboteurs. It sounds shaky enough even with all these top scientists working on it.

Nuclear fusion is different to nuclear fission - what normal reactors like the ones that provide power normally do - in the respect that the process joins two light atoms together to form a single heavy one, while fission splits one heavy atom into two lighter ones. It produces less waste, and can theoretically output far more energy, although the current world record is 16MW, set 9 years ago (for comparison, a fission reactor to be built in Finland will be outputting 1600 MW).
Inside the reactor, deuterium and tritium atoms will be forced together at a temperature above 100 million C.

Doesn't it look pretty? Actually, reminds me of the Matrix or something. Also, this image shows what the inside looks like, turned off on the left and operational on the right. There are lots more pictures in the first ATS thread I referenced.

The EAST could be viewed as a smaller experimental reactor to help with the development of the ITER, although the Chinese apparently intend to inject the produced electricity into their grid. It is expected to have a capacity of 500MW.

Not saying it's bad - because China really needs a new energy source - I just hope this all goes well and the Chinese are responsible with this enormous power they are about to create. And let us just cross our fingers and hope they have done a better job with this than that toaster in my kitchen.

Chernobyl's number 4 reactor had about 4 foot of concrete on top (after many conflicting accounts - please say if wrong) as well as 5-foot thick concrete walls, and where did that get them? And what's with this commie obsession with mixing concrete and nuclear things?
A rather amusing little comparison:

Walls of U.S. Embassy, Baghdad = 15 feet thick (against suicide bombers packing TNT)

Walls of fusion reactor = 3-5 feet thick (against explosive force of universe)


I'll post on this as soon as something happens, and if I don't get back to you it would be safe to assume that the world has ended. LOL . . . or not??






Related News Links:
TerraDaily.com
ChinaDaily.com.cn
English.People.com.cn
China.org.cn

Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
OMG! Artificial Sun!!!
China has developed an Artificial Sun
Introduction...anyone know about nuclear fusion?

[edit on 30/7/2006 by watch_the_rocks]




posted on Jul, 30 2006 @ 11:34 AM
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Things like this in the hands of the Chicomms is a very scary thought. Having lived and worked in China for 7 years, I know what their safety ethics are like, and if I was living within 1000miles of this thing, lemme tell ya: I'd move. The Chinese have borrowed, bought, and copied technology without learning the sometimes harsh lessons learnt through developing it. In China, everything is sacrificed for the sake of pride and for keeping up appearances (notice there has to be a Chinese flag on the top of it?), everything including the environment and the welfare of Chinese citizens. And the people who run projects like this obtain their positions through the corrupt Chinese system of guan xi, loosely translated as "connections", not because of their qualifications to do the job.

God help us all.



posted on Jul, 30 2006 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by wecomeinpeace
The Chinese have borrowed, bought, and copied technology without learning the sometimes harsh lessons learnt through developing it.


Where do you get this information? Care to share please?


In China, everything is sacrificed for the sake of pride and for keeping up appearances (notice there has to be a Chinese flag on the top of it?)


This is COMPLETELY ridiculous... Sacrificing for the sake of pride to keep up appearances? Wtf... You're telling me that because there is a Chinese flag on a CHINESE Nuclear fusion reactor, they are sacrificing for the sake of pride...


, everything including the environment and the welfare of Chinese citizens. And the people who run projects like this obtain their positions through the corrupt Chinese system of guan xi, loosely translated as "connections", not because of their qualifications to do the job.


Can you prove this please? The same can be said for ANY government in this world and as far as I can tell, the Chinese gov't has been doing pretty damn well so far.


God help us all.


From what? The big bad ChiComms? Seriously, this is 2006, not the 1960s. Some of you guys have seriously GOT to wake up from your fantasy of having an enemy to annhiliate.

It's just so unpredictable... Instead of admiring that the Chinese would be the first to have this kind of technology, people here bash the "evil ChiComms" thinking they'd use it as some kind of weapon against the West.

Instead of saying "God help us all" like the Chinese would WANT to destroy the world, I'd much rather hear "God protect the Chinese civilians from any disasters that might occur."



posted on Jul, 30 2006 @ 01:03 PM
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I was not aware that nuclear fusion reactors had political opinions, but if this is a communist nuclear fusion reactor then maybe they have.


I and would not be concerned about the Chinese building something like that, after all, many US scientists have a Chinese origin.



posted on Jul, 30 2006 @ 01:19 PM
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1) It's a plasma research reactor, not a power plant.

2) It's not the "world's first nuclear fusion reactor"

3) It's not China's first Tokamak, either. The HT-7 was hot tested late in 1994.

4) You can't compare it to Chernobyl, which was a graphite moderated fission reactor, they have nothing in common

5) They can't go off with a bang

6) They're not going to take it to fusion levels on the first warm up run, either. You'll notice the article says "plasma discharge". They pump it down, fire the magnets up, inject a very low concentration of DT and bring it to a plasma state with a microwave source, sort like the one in your microwave oven. Then you see how it holds together.

7) There has been many another fusion reactor before it, there will be many after. The fusion isn't the big deal. Getting more out of it than you put in is. This one won't do it either. ITER may not.

If you'd like to buy one for your house, at one time you could get one that looked like this:




posted on Jul, 30 2006 @ 04:56 PM
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I never stated that this was the first ever test of a fusion reactor. In fact, I SAID that at least one had been tested before because of the output record. And I remember nothing about saying that they were gonna ramp this baby up to full power the first time. Perhps the article you read says that, but not me.

BUT I did do a bit more research on this than those few other links I provided, and other sites say that it will be used to generate electricity, which China will use.

I know about the HT-7. That's why I also gave the official name HT-7U to this one.

And I can compare it to Chernobyl, thank you very much. Fusion is much more powerful than fission. Think atomic warhead compared to thermonuclear warhead.

But anyways . . . thanks for your interest Tom Bedlam!



posted on Jul, 30 2006 @ 06:06 PM
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I never stated that this was the first ever test of a fusion reactor.


Ok...but this was the first line of your post?


China is set to test the worlds first nuclear fusion reactor on August 15th.




And I remember nothing about saying that they were gonna ramp this baby up to full power the first time.


Sorry, guess I misinterpreted this:


I'll post on this as soon as something happens, and if I don't get back to you it would be safe to assume that the world has ended.



other sites say that it will be used to generate electricity, which China will use.


Hm. As far as I am aware, no Tokamak has even reached scientific breakeven, although they say that the JT-60 might be able to do it if it could run D-T. To the best of my knowledge, the HT-7U not only isn't intended to, but won't have the requisite means for extracting the heat from the reaction in order to drive generators. Or generators, either, for that matter. Dr Wu doesn't mention anything about power generation: "The mission of the HT-7U Tokamak is to develop a steady state capable advanced superconducting Tokamak to establish a scientific and technological basis for an attractive fusion reactor."

It's a plasma physics project. To go from no-one reaching scientific breakeven to shooting past economic breakeven would be stupendous. But they don't seem to mention it. Now, ITER is hoped to produce 500MW for up to 500 seconds. Somewhere around 500 seconds they think they can get a stable self-sustaining plasma.

From the Chinese Academy of Sciences:


The HT-7U Superconducting Tokamak is a plasma physics experimental device, able to operate with advanced tokamak operating modes in the steady state. The scientific missions of HT-7U are: 1) To realize tokamak steady-state operation, including construction of the HT-7U Superconducting Tokamak; 2) To improve plasma confinement, increase b with steady-state operation by controlling plasma profile; and 3) To perform heat and particle flow control.


www.casbic.ac.cn...-7U%20Project%20in%20Progress

The HT-7U has a new control system and a tiny bit different cavity shape. They're hoping to get 1000 seconds of confinement, but it's not a production reactor. Do you have one of those sites you can post? I did a quick review and the Chinese don't seem to be saying it, at least not the ones associated with the project.


And I can compare it to Chernobyl, thank you very much.


Sure, feel free, if you don't mind being way off the mark. One is a fission reactor with a graphite moderator, the other a Tokamak fusion reactor built for the purpose of experimenting with long-term plasma containment. Not much in common as far as I can see.

With a fusion reactor, especially a Tokamak, you have to fight like mad to get the reaction to last for even a few seconds. Anything goes wrong, it stops. Sometimes stuff overheats and you have to pour the money back in to fix it, but it's not like you can get a big puddle of radioactive metals like Chernobyl.




Fusion is much more powerful than fission. Think atomic warhead compared to thermonuclear warhead.


Bzzt! Wrong again. Pu239 releases 210 MeV per fission. D-T releases 17.6MeV per fusion. On an event by event basis, Pu239 fission has 10 times the energy of D-T fusion.

At any rate, most of the power output of a thermonuclear weapon (that's the fusion one, I noticed that you had them backwards relative to each other in your analogy) is not from the fusion itself, but from secondary fission induced in the U238 used for the secondary assembly's tamper.

Yes, I said U238.

There's a funny story there. But in fact, what happens is that the fast neutron flux from the fusion going on in the secondary assembly drives a fission reaction in the non-fissile bomb materials. That's why they call them three stage or fission-fusion-fission weapons.

[edit: typo]

[edit on 30-7-2006 by Tom Bedlam]



posted on Jul, 31 2006 @ 02:17 AM
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Thank you, Mr. Bedlam, for pointing out my glaring mistakes. In future, I will make a point of not arguing in an area I know nothing at all about.

Right now I would like to burn down your house, but let's keep it civil.


 


I'll admit that I don't remember putting that 'first' into the introductory sentence. I knew it was not the first one ever, and if you read the article properly you also would have figured that I made a mistake.

It's a good thing that you were around to protect them all from my ignorance. Stick close in future, huh? and let's have an argument in an area I know something about . . . THEN you'd get



posted on Jul, 31 2006 @ 11:08 AM
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Sorry, watch, I shouldn't have come across so smarmy. We are pretty rough around here with the jokey insults and I sometimes don't stop when I get online. "Bzzt! WRONG!" is one of my common ones.

It's just that this is a cool thing, if they can pull it off, and there's not really any downside for the world at large.

So far, there hasn't been a lot of research into steady-state plasma confinement in a Tokamak, which the HT-7 and the 7U are built for. So there's a lot of data to be gained.

I found some publications by CAS that say they may not EVER try for fusion ("burning plasma") at all in HT-7U. They're more interested in weird instability modes in long term confinement.

Actually, that makes sense, too. If you KNOW the thing is likely to become unstable and the plasma hit the walls, then you'd probably not want a full-on load of fusing DT when it happens. Even if you did, it's not like it's going to be dangerous, but it will make a bigger mess of your expensive test reactor. Also, burning DT in there will let loose a lot of neutrons, which will activate some of the materials, making them somewhat radioactive, and nasty to handle.

If you want to reconfigure or fix something inside, neutron activation of the inside bits of your Tokamak makes things a lot more painful and slow to work on.

Seriously, it's my impression that they're really digging into investigation into cavity stability modes and control algorithms for long-term plasma confinement. It's needed info, and if they screw it up, we're not out any money, but if they do it well, we get the info.

Sounds win-win to me.

By the way, Fusion Star is very real, although they may have gone out of production. It's pretty pricey. You can do one yourself, if you're handy with the tools and have a pretty big shop. A few thousand in discretionary funds helps. They are real fusion reactors. The efficiency is just really low.


[edit on 31-7-2006 by Tom Bedlam]



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 02:30 AM
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No offense taken
Although, I did type out a reply back then that would probably have gotten me thrown out of here, but luckily I realized this and cooled off in the kitchen


I suppose I always just presumed that anything nuclear was bad and dangerous, but I didn't realize just how saef one of these things are. Not really all that much radiation, not much chance of anything going wrong unless they really screw it up, and what we stand to learn from even a basic (I forget what you called it . . . something long and complicated) test stands to help this science a lot.
 

I remember reading somewhere that when nuclear power was initially realized, it was thought that every home would have a little box that would provide all required electricity. For one reason or another (probably electricity-company intervention) this never came about, and that's probably a good thing with fission reactors.
But with fusion power plants, do you think it would be safe enough - once the technology has developed sufficiently - to perhaps give not every household but maybe every city its own fusion reactor? I mean, with Chernobyl they even attempted to shut it down and just sped it up, but with these fusion reactors it seems that if something goes wrong it just shuts itself down. What do you think?



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 02:37 AM
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Well if they can get civilian nuclear fusion power plants to work, good for them! We'll just steal the tech back, God knows they've stolen enough from us!


And it's definitely NOT the first nuclear fusion reactor, we've been toying around with different designs for it for years, the only problem is all the designs so far take more energy than they create!



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 03:05 AM
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[tired bored voice]Yes, I know it's not the first fusion reactor. If you'd read the article properly you'd have noticed that I stated a previously set output record for a fusion reactor.[/tired bored voice]

btw, the U.S. won't NEED to steal the tech back. The EAST is a test bed reactor for the ITER, which the U.S. is a partner in, I believe.



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 03:46 AM
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The first country to produce a sustainable fusion reactor will trigger WW3. It goes like this: fusion is literally FREE power (from seawater.) Free power means nearly infinite production capability. It also shakes up the current hegemony, which bases their power on control of fossil fuels. Fusion power means you can make pretty much anything you want in any quantity. The struggle to acquire that technology (by the large countries) and the associated struggle to suppress it (by the oil-bearing nations) will BE WW3 (or WW4 if you are so inclinded.)

Jon



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 04:02 AM
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Good luck to them I say.

I just hope they have a lot of security guarding this thing against possible sabotage by''someone'' with interests in keeping us buying fossil fuels..

OH by the way.. Is it gonna be vacuum sealed??I haven,t been able to clarify that yet



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 05:04 AM
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EAST is a testbed for ITER and Its technology is not advanced enough to produce energy for disrtipution, it will most likely drain more energy than it produces, or produce just a bit.

Fusion reactors are inherently safe, since the temperatures required to sustain Fusion are so high that they cannot be achieved if Fusion plasma is in direct contact with matter. Thus if the magnetic toruses fail to contain the plasma in the air (vacuum to be exact) the plasma hits the fusion chamber walls and fusion reaktion stops. The plasma flow/surge will destroy the chamber and cause significant damage to the immediate surroundings 200m or so. but it will not be a nuclear explosion a la chernobyl... radiation leaks should allso be relatively small.



posted on Aug, 1 2006 @ 11:39 AM
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Watch, I think the future's so bright we're gonna need shades.



[edit on 1-8-2006 by Tom Bedlam]




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