F-22 Raptor foreign sales ban repealed

July 18, 2006 (by Jeff Hollenbeck) - The U.S. House of Representatives repealed a ban on F-22 Raptor sales to foreign air forces in a voice vote on July 1. However, the repeal still needs to pass through conference with the Senate and ultimately be approved in the FY-07 Defense Bill.

The cost of the F-22 has risen over the years to a flyaway cost of more than $130 million per jet (not including research and development) due to dwindling orders from the only customer - the United States Air Force.

Several different nations including Australia, Japan, Great Britain, and Israel have expressed interest in purchasing F-22s and Lockheed is reportedly interested in selling to those countries if the legalities can be resolved.

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Whenever the procedures are completed, the F-22 might well see action in the colours of several Air Forces. I'm particularly looking forward for the "Japtor" .

I'm also guessing that the export F-22's would be significantly downgraded compared to the USAF versions, and that deals involving their sale would not include any technology transfer whatsoever.

However there are more than a couple of countries on that interested list that more than have the tech level to figure out the raptors technology by themselves.

And since Israel is most likely to put them to use, if one was shot down and fell into the wrong hands ....... (you fill in the rest)

P.S : Any CGI's of the Raptor in non-USAF colours ?

[edit on 28/7/06 by Stealth Spy]

My problem with Israel getting the Raptor is that Israel has acted as a conduit for US technology getting to China.
Israel has apologized for those sins of the past but I don't trust them and anyone who does is foolish.

Rather than Israel having air superiority, why not embrace CH1466's philosophy of a DEW on every corner... Heck, Israel helped pay for the MTHEL technology - why not use it.

As for a "Japtor", that would be quite interesting.

[edit on 7-28-2006 by intelgurl]

[edit on 7-30-2006 by intelgurl]

Hmm i think that the export of the Raptor could be good in general for the aviation industry in the US. It would help the US lower the cost of raptors and would deffently increase forign openion of he US airforce as they would still have to train new pilots etc on the 22. I think key countries like japan would not just benfit themselves but there area of influance. It may even help the 35 program by putting more cash flow into the system and work out kinks etc and draw people into buying the 35! I think it would be a good move but it also must be a careful one.

Originally posted by intelgurl
My problem with Israel getting the Raptor is that Israel has acted as a conduit for US technology getting to reach China.
Israel has apologized for those sins of the past but I don't trust them and anyone who does is foolish.

Rather than Israel having air superiority, why not embrace CH1466's philosophy of a DEW on every corner... Heck, Israel helped pay for the MTHEL technology - why not use it.

As for a "Japtor", that would be quite interesting.

[edit on 7-28-2006 by intelgurl]

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with ANY other country having the F-22, at least at this point in time. As for MTHEL, I agree.

[edit on 7/28/2006 by ConservativeMan]

could you expand with your reasons why? I'd like to hear why cause I'm starting to think that there could be a large payoff in allowing nations that are in more then good standing ie japan, aus the chance. espescially since it will in my openion as stated before be benfical to the industry as a whole and other nations as well.

I think Japan getting some Raptors will help the USAF and US in general immensely. First we don’t have to waste what few Raptors we might get by basing them or tying them down in the pacific theater to deter China. Japan could do that and USAF squadrons could be freed up for other conflict areas around the world. Not to mention as another member said, price could go down and it would prolong the F-22 assembly line possibly allowing the USAF to purchase more F-22A’s and or produce an upgrade version, F-22B.

The only countries that I would personally trust with the F-22’s, albeit a downgraded version (yes the export version will be downgraded), are the UK, Japan, Australia and Canada. I would literally weep if Israel got the F-22, I sincerely hope they don’t get the F-35 either.

Technology falling into Chinese hands may be a worry, but the PRC has its tentacles spread out far and wide & waiting to pounce. Looking at prospective F-22 customers, through the China prisim :

Israel - notorious history/allegations of leaking US Patriot ABM tech, THEL tech, AWACS tech, F-16&Lavi tech, selling UAV's, high-end electronics, etc, etc to China. The same might repeat in the case of the F-22 (?) ; could also lose F-22 in operational use over islamic nations that could transfer remains to china/russia (?)

Japan - Too close to China. Might lose a raptor to china; plane could fall into chinese hands; Too close to Russia for american comfort.

Australia - Massive chinese spy rings are alleged to operate here ( www.cnn.com... ) ... just google for more.

UK - No issues (?). But do they have any reason to buy the F-22 ?

Cannada - any interest ?

[edit on 28/7/06 by Stealth Spy]

Sell them; sell them to all the allies on the list. Get as many in the air as possible is what I say.

Lets say all the USA’s strong allies fly Raptors. And let’s just assume for the argument they are as good as hyped and will dominate all other aircraft in operation. If these sales double or triple the amount of F22’s being operated in the name of the West and Democracy, then I say fine.

And the value of having that many air-dominating aircraft in the sky FAR outweighs the damage from the tech getting into the wrong hands. Think about it: These planes are $150,000,000 a copy for a reason. What nation could copy them for less? It takes years to study the tech, understand it, and then decide how you will use it. Then years to develope the facilities to reproduce it, you don’t just snap your fingers and have a Raptor plant pumping them out because you got your hands on one.

If we handed a fully operational Raptor to China or Russia tomorrow, how fast do you think they could turn that tech around into effective devices/crafts of their own? Years and billions of dollars. How about Iran or North Korea? A decade at least.

I understand bits and pieces of the tech could be used all over, but even that takes time and more importantly lots and lots of cash. In the mean time the west and its allies would ALREADY be dominating the skies with the tech, and more importantly working on the next generation while its enemies scramble to copy the current generation.

This is a war of attrition. Keep your foes spending time, money, and resources figuring out how to copy what you have already done. And what better way than to flood the skies with planes they cannot possibly compete with? And not to mention the USA would benefit HUGELY in financial cost of the program, heavens forbid buy a few more of them than planned.

Sell’em, sell’em all!


[edit on 28-7-2006 by skippytjc]

Give China an F-22 ? and you'll see a copy in the air in a year max. I can see where they are coming from rearming and making Japan stronger (It faces China, NK, Vietnam ) and needs a good strong force for self defence. What it should never do is be given / sold / lent to israel in any way shape or form. They are so amazingly two faced about the whole 'we are US best friends' and then scuttle off to the chinese for a quick tech swap....

Im suprised we haven't seen an F-15 carbon copy in the air from the chinese - Maybe their waiting for the F-22.....

The only time I know of the UK ever showing any interest in actually buying Raptors was around 1995 and then only briefly and the discussion was of Britain becoming a partner rather than just a customer. Frankly I don't think there's a chance in Hades that the UK will buy the F22 in any form. There's simply no requirement, no significant benefit and more importantly no money!

Originally posted by GSA
Give China an F-22 ? and you'll see a copy in the air in a year max. I can see where they are coming from rearming and making Japan stronger (It faces China, NK, Vietnam ) and needs a good strong force for self defence. What it should never do is be given / sold / lent to israel in any way shape or form. They are so amazingly two faced about the whole 'we are US best friends' and then scuttle off to the chinese for a quick tech swap....

Im suprised we haven't seen an F-15 carbon copy in the air from the chinese - Maybe their waiting for the F-22.....

Thats the same as people saying, just give me the final exam in advance and ill ace the test. Then they end up failing the dam thing anyways. Success only comes to those who earn it, period. They could be given an entire new f-22 and still not be able to produce it because they dont have the knowhow or technological advances to do it.

Train

The F-22 would be just as secure over here than in the United States. I've seen how our air bases work.

And there are large bases of Chinese spies in the U.S, Japan and Canada also. We just found them out Not that you guys haven't... but we just told everyone about it

Originally posted by GSA
Im suprised we haven't seen an F-15 carbon copy in the air from the chinese - Maybe their waiting for the F-22.....

Or have you seem ANY "carbon copies" of american equipment in chinese service??? . Is this like some catch phase people use to highlight their inferioty complex or egos?


Apart from all the acusations, which one of them have ever been proven?. For once i have to agree skippytjc about copying equipment. People use this also at free will without even going into production cost, re-development etc. You cant take a piece of wing and just make your own one. The F-22 is made from complex materials and is done though complex production techniques. To make these work you would need to re-design the wheel in order to make the same thing.

There also is a active chinese program in the works. WHICH DOES NOT MAKE USE OF ANY AMERICAN EQUIPMENT. Which areas of the F-22 does china need?. Engine radar. Both are in development or can be aquired from russia which also has a active program in the works. Why would china need such a different suite of equipment from the americans which only work with the other equipment america has?

Israel - notorious history/allegations of leaking US Patriot ABM tech, THEL tech, AWACS tech, F-16&Lavi tech, selling UAV's, high-end electronics, etc, etc to China.

Glad you said allegations since i was going to ask from proof. Not googled articles but actual reports which state where it was stolen from, where it is being used on china equipment and pictures to prove it. Burden of proof anybody?

Australia - Massive chinese spy rings are alleged to operate here

And what does that have to do with weaponary?.

If you actually followed the story it was about the falun gong and the PRC kidnapping them and had nothing to do with spying on the military.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Technology falling into Chinese hands may be a worry, but the PRC has its tentacles spread out far and wide & waiting to pounce. Looking at prospective F-22 customers, through the China prisim :
Israel - notorious history/allegations of leaking US Patriot ABM tech, THEL tech, AWACS tech, F-16&Lavi tech, selling UAV's, high-end electronics, etc, etc to China. The same might repeat in the case of the F-22 (?) ; could also lose F-22 in operational use over islamic nations that could transfer remains to china/russia (?)
Japan - Too close to China. Might lose a raptor to china; plane could fall into chinese hands; Too close to Russia for american comfort.
Australia - Massive chinese spy rings are alleged to operate here ( www.cnn.com... ) ... just google for more.
UK - No issues (?). But do they have any reason to buy the F-22 ?
Cannada - any interest ?

So all your sub-meaning is only Idia will buy and have right to buy F-22, and US also should sale it to Idia without save
For your country is the biggest demoncrasic country, I agree with you. But your country should change some costum as burn woman etc. then would be a stronge nation.

Originally posted by shanemcbain
And there are large bases of Chinese spies in the U.S, Japan and Canada also. We just found them out

Not that you guys haven't... but we just told everyone about it

Found them out?

After the media cricus, was there even one arrest of a "chinese spy" in australia?. The claims of 1000's of chinese spy, we haven't even found ONE to back up Mr Chen Yonglin CLAIMS. Not even ONE

Why do people assume everything reported in the media is truthful?

Originally posted by emile
So all your sub-meaning is only Idia will buy and have right to buy F-22, and US also should sale it to Idia without save

Thats actually his meaning. He actually stated "why does america offer israeli level F-16s to india when india has proved" to be a better country". Maybe not neglating the fact that india and america had been at odds with each other for almost 40 years.

Maybe the americans will learn after this, just after they signed a nuclear deal with india they go and sell missile technology to iran

US sanctions two India firms for transfers to Iran

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Bush administration has decided to impose sanctions on two Indian firms for missile-related transactions with Iran, U.S. officials told Reuters on Thursday.

The disclosure came hours after the U.S. House of Representatives late Wednesday overwhelmingly agreed the United States should sell nuclear technology to India and rejected a move by critics to delay the vote over concerns New Delhi had not sufficiently aided U.S. efforts to contain Iran.

Under terms of the U.S. Iran-Syria Non-proliferation Act, "we are going to report to Congress about transactions by two private Indian companies with Iran," one official said.

He and another official declined to identify the firms but one official said the transfers involve "dual-use items related to missiles."

abcnews.go.com...

It is interesting that some people express a fear that countries like Australia and the UK will compromise US technology, when US citizens such as Ames, Walker and Hansen did a pretty good job in the USA themselves getting secrets out. And if you think the Chinese spy rings in Australia are bad, you should check out those in the US.

The best way to keep a secret is to not tell anybody. Pretty much impossible given the sheer size and number of people involved in producing systems such as the F-22. You can compartment all you want, but the simple fact is some idiot will get drunk in a bar and start yabbering about what they do. Or worse still sell direct to the adversary of choice at any given time. I don't think selling the Raptor to any of the major allies is going to expedite the loss of secrets anymore than if the US is the sole operator. And as Westy pointed out, the US will "downgrade" certain aspects anyhow (either acknowledged or otherwise). And good luck to them. I certainly wouldn't be handing out my top of line fighter as a full-up capability to anyone else for at least 15 years. But industry pressure is driving exports more than common sense. They are, after all, in it for the money.

And Australia isn't considering the F-22. The F-35 is all but a given here.

Copies of US equipment by China? Shall we start with the miniturised nuclear warheads from the clinton era madness? china had no way of producing them said the CIA, and then a year later, China had minturised nuke warheads... IDENTICAL in every way to the US design.....

The F-22 is a formidable craft, and will be ahead by decades over any thing else in the air. To sell it to any other nation is sheer madness. Say India do get a copy, or isreal, and it gets downed in a Middle east country..... what then?

No ill stick to my origional thoughts - keep it in country for at least a decade.

I recommend that Americans should sell F-22 to key allies. I would hope to see Britain, Austrailia, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Japan, Canada and some Europe countries. Its just that I'm having bad feeling that Russia and India Pak-Fa project can be very big-time rival if India would decide to go along with two engines version of fighter.



Look at that fighter on right.... I'm one of big fans of F-22 Raptor and this Russian-Indigo jet.... To be truth, I'm speechless if they would finally built and fly this.

Originally posted by emile
So all your sub-meaning is only Idia will buy and have right to buy F-22, and US also should sale it to Idia without save.

Your analysis of the topic is so awesomely insightful. I have to congratulate you for your great knodwledge and unmatched analytical skill. If there was ever a prize for topic analysis, i dont see anyone beyond you for that title. Your perspective of things is really extraordinary, i must admit.

Originally posted by chinawhite
Thats actually his meaning. He actually stated "why does america offer israeli level F-16s to india when india has proved to be a better country". Maybe not neglating the fact that india and america had been at odds with each other for almost 40 years.

Maybe the americans will learn after this, just after they signed a nuclear deal with india they go and sell missile technology to iran

Oh! chinawhite, you are such a grand genius. Your analysis of my statements are so very remarkable that it almost sent me into a tizzy. I would also wish to thank you for educating me with your vast and unmatched knodwledge of India-America relations. The information you provided about the two countries being at "odds" for 40 years was particularly educational.

The information about India developing missiles for Iran that you so very unselfishly shared was truly eye opening. Since you are the expert, i have to ask you if India would privide nukes to Iran too in the near future ? I pray that an Oracle of a person that you are, would take time to answer questions from a wasteful lowling like me.

You were truly educational and insightful Sir. The ease with which you share your deep analytical prowess is just one of your kingly qualities.

[edit on 29/7/06 by Stealth Spy]