What are the connections between the Knights of Columbus and Freemasons?

There may be such an assumption in many circles due to lack of education of the Catholic faith, even amoung the faithful, however, no Freemason can be in communion with the Catholic Church, whether they realize it or not.

Originally posted by Appak

When the K of C insurance salesman came by to tell me about the Knights and invite me to join ...

My dad was a devote catholic but he would never join the KoC. For what reasons, I don't know (probably too busy with mundane matters feeding five kids) except that's what he called them... bunch of insurance salesmen.

Insurance for their faith?

Originally posted by Relentless
There may be such an assumption in many circles due to lack of education of the Catholic faith, even amoung the faithful, however, no Freemason can be in communion with the Catholic Church, whether they realize it or not.

Interesting statement. It is indeed curious that the specific question ("are you a member of . . .Freemasons, etc?" is on the R.C.I.A. application that is filed with the Diocesan Office. However if what you say is true, (I don't know what credentials you have to make such a Bold Statement) there are a LOT of Priests and Bishops out there handing out the body of Christ to unauthorized personnel.

Originally posted by Appak
(I don't know what credentials you have to make such a Bold Statement) there are a LOT of Priests and Bishops out there handing out the body of Christ to unauthorized personnel.

I have no credentials, I do however attempt to study and practice my faith, so I can provide you with a link to a statement to explain the Church's view of Freemasonry:

www.ewtn.com...

Masonry is also a secret society. Its initiates subscribe to secret blood oaths that are contrary to Christian morals. The prospective Mason swears that if he ever reveals the secrets of Masonry—secrets which are trivial and already well-known—he wills to be subject to self-mutilation or to gruesome execution. (Most Masons, admittedly, never would dream of carrying out these punishments on themselves or on an errant member).

Historically, one of Masonry's primary objectives has been the destruction of the Catholic Church; this is especially true of Freemasonry as it has existed in certain European countries. In the United States, Freemasonry is often little more than a social club, but it still espouses a naturalistic religion that contradicts orthodox Christianity.

The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).

As for your final comment about some priests, I can't say you are wrong. Unfortuantely the lack of understanding and instruction in the Church is not limited to the "flock", and a lot of errors occur all the time. I guess that's why we are asked to pray for them too. I guess it's like when a Dr. doesn't know what a CA125 blood test is. The US (I can only speak for what I know) is full of professionals who don't know their professions very well. It's a shame.

But anyway, I only meant to answer the question asked.

Originally posted by Relentless
But anyway, I only meant to answer the question asked.

Understood! Thanks for the information. I've read similar things, but again can only reflect upon my own experience with my Bishop and my Priest (who's a dear friend of mine as well). Masonry has never interfered with my personal faith and I attempt to attend Mass daily (although I sometimes don't make it). To me Masonry is nothing but a fraternity (one I thoroughly enjoy, by the way) Were it to appear to be anything else I would leave it immediately. I do find the part about Masonry attempting to destroy the Catholic Church very interesting. That, I would imagine is the crux of the misunderstanding. Masonry has NEVER attempted to destroy the Catholic (or any other) Church. Some of the degrees deal with the destruction of tyranny and despotism (which the Church was at one time guilty of, we all know that) But we're not living in the middle ages any more. Inquisitions are a thing of the past. As for a "naturalistic religion" that too is an error. Masonry practices NO religion. It requires that it's members believe in God, but what he believes ABOUT God is his personal busines. It's about Fraternity (Brotherhood) not religion at all. If it were, I'd certainly not be interested in it. I practice my religion at the Mass and in my daily life. My fraternal meetings are just that, a "get-together" if you will, with my friends and Brothers.

[edit on 30-7-2006 by Appak]

Originally posted by Appak
Masonry has never interfered with my personal faith and I attempt to attend Mass daily (although I sometimes don't make it).

Good god - you're a Catholic Mason?

Please elaborate. Have you tried the KoC? Are they just too boring? It would really be great to hear from someone who has belonged to both/ Can you join the KoC so we can get a true comparison?

Originally posted by Relentless

Originally posted by Appak
Masonry has never interfered with my personal faith and I attempt to attend Mass daily (although I sometimes don't make it).

Good god - you're a Catholic Mason?

LOL! Yep. (You must have missed my previous post) I'm what the Catholic world calls a "Convert" I went through RCIA quite some time back and I go to Mass almost daily.

Oh, and there are several Catholic Masons in my Parish.

[edit to add an RCIA explanation]

For those who don't know, RCIA = Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (the process one must go through to convert to Catholicism)

www.ecatholic2000.com...

[edit on 30-7-2006 by Appak]

The Junior Deacon in my Lodge is also a Roman Catholic...and a K of C.

It may be of interest to readers of this thread to link to two pertinent documents: the Humanum Genus of Pope Leo XIII, and A Reply of Freemasonry To Humanum Genus In Behalf Of Mankind by Albert Pike.

Pike's reply is prefaced by an oration he delivered to the Supreme Council of the 33° in October 1884.

[edit on 31-7-2006 by Masonic Light]

on February 22,
1967, the anniversary of George Washington's birth, a meeting took
place between Supreme Knight John McDevitt, Supreme Advocate Harold
Lamboley, and Deputy Supreme Knight Charles Ducey, representing the
Knights of Columbus, and Ill. George Newbury, 33rd (SGC NJ A&ASR),
MW Frank Staples (GM NY) and Irving Partridge, (Dep. for CT) for
the Freemasons. This meeting was intended to foster fraternal
accord between the two Orders, and to discuss ways that they both
might promote programs that did the following things: promote
patriotism, teach respect for constitutional authority, and
encourage youth citizenship awareness programs.

taken from www.geocities.com...

This website is a personal website. However, if the information is true, this was an important meeting between the leaders of the K of C, and important members of the Freemasons.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor


This website is a personal website. However, if the information is true, this was an important meeting between the leaders of the K of C, and important members of the Freemasons.

Interesting article. I think that, in actual practice, the objectives of the Masons and the Knights of Columbus aren't that far apart. Both fraternities strive to assist the needy and benefit the community in a number of ways.

The major difference between the two is philosophical, with Freemasonry representing the autonomy and authority of the individual, and KofC representing that of the Church.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

The major difference between the two is philosophical, with Freemasonry representing the autonomy and authority of the individual, and KofC representing that of the Church.

Ergo, the two are incompatible. I am really stunned at the reports of practicing Catholics who are Freemasons, especially those reporting that this is being accepted at a local level. If you read my former posts about the Church standing on this it is not a gray area. What an eye opener.

The simple fact remains, as far as the Church is concerned, if you are a Freemason you are not a Catholic in good standing, even if the local priest and bishop have no problem with it (which kind of lets you off the hook personally in the eyes of the Church). I am dying to see if this is going on where I live too.

My Dad who is KoC and former head of the local chapter back in NY is going to ask around now here in Florida. He is flabergasted at my report to him about this thread.

As of now there is no connection. Maybe in the past there was, but now there is none, and all it really comes down to is just similarity in ritual, but nothing else.

Originally posted by Relentless
He is flabergasted at my report to him about this thread

I'd think that there are many people who are catholic but who don't obey each directive of the church, though these are normally called 'non-practicing' catholics, who mabye got to church on christmas, easter, their wedding and funeral. It is odd to note that some people who are practicing catholics would also be a freemason, but, at the same time, just because one is pious doesn't mean that one listens to every command issued by the Church, even if the Church expects it.

That may be true, but the curious thing is that it sounds like the people who are breaking this rule are not actually making a "cafeteria" choice. It honestly sounds like for the most part they are unaware of the conflict, and they are people who one would expect to be aware of it.

Originally posted by Relentless
That may be true, but the curious thing is that it sounds like the people who are breaking this rule are not actually making a "cafeteria" choice. It honestly sounds like for the most part they are unaware of the conflict, and they are people who one would expect to be aware of it.

The mother Church also strictly forbids the use of artificial birth-control, but I think you'd find it surprising the number of Catholics who practice it. I guess that would fall into the category of making (as you called it) a "cafeteria choice" because the Church is quite clear on this issue. Perhaps someday eyes will be opened as to the Church's rule regarding this matter and to the one regarding Freemasonry. After all for many years the stance of the Church was that there was only one TRUE faith and that Protestants were hell-bound and that has certainly changed.

I doubt that any catholic is unaware of the strictures when he actually goes to join the masons. I can see people not being aware before hand, but not when they start looking into it. If the history of the struggles between the RCC and Masonry don't tip them off to the papal statements, then I'd suspect that the Lodge Members would.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I doubt that any catholic is unaware of the strictures when he actually goes to join the masons. I can see people not being aware before hand, but not when they start looking into it. If the history of the struggles between the RCC and Masonry don't tip them off to the papal statements, then I'd suspect that the Lodge Members would.

That's a very good point. I do think the relationship between the two (RCC & Freemasonry) has improved drastically in the U.S.A. at least.

My situation (as indicated in earlier posts) was different. I was Presbyterian (and a Mason) who joined the Catholic Church. I let my Priest and my Bishop know that I was a Mason and checked the box "yes" that asked if I was a member of any secret organizations like the Masons, etc. Both Priest and Bishop indicated that it was OK for me, a Mason, to become a Catholic and there's some paperwork filed (somewhere) where I openly admitted it.

Had either the Priest or Bishop said "No, you must leave the Lodge before you can become a Catholic" I'd still be a Presbyterian.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
Another reason why the Freemasons are condemned is because European Freemasonry in the past, have been very hostile to the Catholic Church.

They attacked the church through various means, and propeganda.

There was a masonic document called the Alta Vendita that outlined the various ways the Freemasonry intented to infect the church with liberal ideas, and "destroy" it from within. The discovery of this document was one of the things that led to the writing of Humanum Genus (ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON FREEMASONRY).

Italian Freemasons used to protest at the Vatican's gates, and shout what the church would consider slander and blasphemy.

It's truly a shame that the Vatican is unable to differentiate between regular freemasonry and the irregular flavor that is practiced in some parts of the continent. Whilst I recognize there could be issues between (say) Italian 'Grand Orient' masonry and the catholic Church, surely the same cannot be said of the regular variety.

Originally posted by psyopswatcher

My dad was a devote catholic but he would never join the KoC. For what reasons, I don't know (probably too busy with mundane matters feeding five kids) except that's what he called them... bunch of insurance salesmen.

Insurance for their faith?


Life insurance. One of the reasons for founding the KCs was that in the 1800s many insurance companies would not sell life insurance to Catholics. At one time, you were required to purchase at least a minimum amount of life insurance (whatever amount that might have been), but was done away with maybe in the early 60s? (My father is a KC since '66-'69 and doesn't have KC insurance)

Does the church exist for its members or its members for the church ?