400,000 Muslims in Texas Equal 400 potential Terrorists

Originally posted by hogtie
AbuMusaab, just let it all out. I am eating this up.

I'll give you something. Let's say that I agree with you about Saudi Arabia to a point. Oil sales helps to prop up the govt there, but remember it is the house of Saud there that is in charge of reforming or not. Not the US. Anyway, I'll go along with you on that. What happens if there is reform? More theocracy? Wahabi becomes mainstream? What will the excuse be then to continue the spread of Islam by the sword? See, what some of us see, and what others don't, is that this isn't about oil, land, freedom. None of that. It is about spreading the Word.

I'll tell you this much. What the middle east has seen up to now is a war based on politics. The US has not been pushed yet, not really. So rise up when the time is right. You have no understanding of the real culture of America. Not the America that lives outside of NY and LA, and not the indoctrinated at universities. If it is brought on the ground inside our borders, it will end in such fury as the Koran could have no words for. The cells will rise but once. And don't forget the conservative Christians. There you will have people fighting for their safety, way of life, and for their faith.

One thing the world has always missed about the US. We have a tremendous capacity for violence. What the world has seen up to this point has been civil and restrained. Force the US to take the gloves off, and Islam may but be a memory.

Tell me. What would Julaladin Rumi have to say about all of this? I think he would just laugh, and say that none of it mattered. You have missed the Message.

The Word does not need the sword to be spread, and it is forbidden to be spread as such. However, if attacked, and attacked, it is our DUTY to push back, and force capitulation for the safety of the believers. Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet today. And no one is forcing these people to follow God. They are finding out on their own. It is not uncommon for Christians to come to my work, or my home and ask us to come to their Church. We do not even have to go out and seek people. People come to the God on their own by God's will.

I love the never ending arrogance about how America has not been pushed, or is not displaying it's full capablility. As Bush said, "Bring it on!" Already, you have been basically defeated in Iraq, alhamdulillah. We are just waiting for the final withdrawal after some pathetic face-saving attempt is pulled.

If the Khilafah is someday re-established, insha'Allah, it will not seek to cause any violence against America, unless America brings violence to it first. It would be completely against Islam to become the aggressor. The Qur'an is very clear.

Just a couple verses on the subject. There are many, many more.

" GOD advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed.(16:90)

"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."(8:61).

America will not be defeated militarily, but, insha'Allah, it will be defeated.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
If they had a sense of honor about them, they would be conducting guerilla operations against the occupiers until every last one of them has perished, instead of sinning themselves into oblivion.

Native Americans have distinguished themselves in combat in the defense of America. They are not without honor.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I simply refuse to believe that others are dangerous just because they think differently than I do.

Wellwhatnow,

Have you met Abu?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by AbuMusaab


I love the never ending arrogance about how America has not been pushed, or is not displaying it's full capablility. As Bush said, "Bring it on!" Already, you have been basically defeated in Iraq, alhamdulillah. We are just waiting for the final withdrawal after some pathetic face-saving attempt is pulled.

That's because you've only been dealing with politicians. Remember the last time politicians were used as a barometer? Clinton was in office. Then there was the rude awakening after WTC. That was a love tap.

As for choosing to come to Islam, we see the alternatives in countries such as Sudan. Some choice. There it isn't spread by the sword, but by the AK and rape.

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
For the record, belief in God has existed since Adam.

I realize that. My point was that the Prophet Muhammad or Allah if you will did not.

The land of Palestine has switched hands several times. If you consider coming and taking a land legitimate, and that the new owners of the land are now called the rightful owners of that land, then it can only be considered fair for someone else to try and take that land as well.

That does not answer the question I put to you, which was what gives them the RIGHT to dictate who can live where?

Shots you know who is Daniel Pipes, Right? I read the link you provided. . .

Just to make you aware of his background and his way of thinking . . . he is considerate an extremist in his views . . . in case you don’t know.

He has shown his displeasure in any way he can about Islam and muslins.

His book "Why I Am Not a Muslim" was called by the National Catholic Reporter in 95, "the literary equivalent of hate radio...literary warfare against Islam".

www.cair-net.org...

Daniel Pipes says the only path to Middle East peace will come through a total Israeli military victory. So why has President Bush nominated him to the board of the government's leading peace think-tank?

I can not trust the views and opinions of somebody that careless of what nations that are Islamic and people that are muslin represent.

US has always have his own militia groups and extremist in one way or other, now they are Tag terrorist we have them and we always will.

Because people that opposed policies pertaining administrations and political views will always be part of a nations make over.

Now Muslin Americans are supposed to be the ones to look forward because their conversion to a religion that is view as linked to most terrorist in the middle east are supposed to be high risk for terrorist acts in the US..

Perhaps the black community in America than accounts for the most muslin converts would see this in a different light.

And as for Pipes well you should research more in his extremist views.

After all even the president thinks that he could make a Great peace keeper in the affairs of the middle east .

Sorry Shots but . . . I agree that we have a possible leak of terrorist through our borders but I can not possibly be influence by the propaganda of Anti muslin resentment that is been pushed for religious and political agendas.

President Bush nominated Pipes to the board of the United States Institute of Peace, a Congressionally sponsored think tank dedicated to "the peaceful resolution of international conflicts."

Incredible that our own president will support and endorse a person with such narrow way of thinking clouded by probably hate against Islam and muslin. . .

www.motherjones.com...

I think that when people start talking about potential terrorists, they also need to consider the home-grown variety. As far as I know, Tim McVeigh wasn't Muslim, but he sure put a pretty big hole in a government building.

Any good terrorist estimate should also include a good number of fundamentalist Christian wack-jobs, as well. The kind who bomb abortion clinics or protest the removal of the Ten Commandments from a court house. It wouldn't take much for a few of these idiots to get it in their heads that they're somehow fighting "The Beast" by bombing a court house here and there.

The deal is, practically anybody can become a terrorist if they fall out of the fabric of mainstream society, either by choice or by chance, such as the folks displaced by Hurricane Katrina. Once you start to feel that the government is "them," instead of "us," you become a potential terrorist.

I don't know how you'd count that, though.

Originally posted by marg6043
Shots you know who is Daniel Pipes, Right? I read the link you provided. . .


www.cair-net.org...

Of course the link you furnished is going to paint him in a completely different and bad light they are pro-Islam.

But that does not mean he is totally wacked out.

Originally posted by shots
Of course the link you furnished is going to paint him in a completely different and bad light they are pro-Islam.

But that does not mean he is totally wacked out.

He is not painted wacko shots . . . his actions, views and opinions . . . plus the books are enough facts. . .

I understand you concern about immigration issues and the real danger about it . . .

But I do not hate muslin, or Islam or any other race, religious groups or nation in the world . . . the action of a few can not and should never be use for propaganda to help instigate the scorn against other human beings just because they are not American Christians and conservative Republicans.

Perhaps we should consider learning as why the middle east has become such a target and why people rather straps bombs to prove their faith and a point.

The middle east, Islam and muslin including the extremist branches has a past and a history and the root of all the conflicts and hate against the west is there.

People rather like stereotype than actually learning why a region hate comes from.

Because is easier to tag, attack and invade than understand.

Originally posted by shots

Originally posted by AbuMusaab
For the record, belief in God has existed since Adam.

I realize that. My point was that the Prophet Muhammad or Allah if you will did not.

Just piping in a bit to answer the underlined part. You have to understand, shots, that Allah is God. It's the Arab word for God. Literally it means "The God", from the suffix al- which means the and the root word illahi which means God. In fact, the God mentioned in all the previous Kitabs (Holy Books) is one and the same.

Now, if you want to talk about Muhammad, it is said (don't ask me for links, I'm getting it from a book, Lore of Light: Stories from the Lives of the Prophets (3 Volumes) (Paperback) ) that "the first thing to be created was the Mind of Muhammad, then the Soul of Muhammad, then the Light of Muhammad; thereafter the Pen and the Tablets."

Believe it or not, it's of no consequence to me. But do check out the book. Even if you don't believe it, it's quite absorbing. Very well written. It's more about the prophets, then anything. Stories about the lives of the 124,000 prophets sent to Earth by God.

Anyway, I'm off topic. Carry on with your discussion

I interpreted shots statement to mean that Islam has not always existed. We should all remember that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God, but a casual observer cannot be blamed for not noticing.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
[...] but a casual observer cannot be blamed for not noticing.

That's true. Which is why piped in when I did, so that the casual observer is informed of these things.

I find that instead of being confrontational, perhaps I should be informative in these (muslim/Islam) matters. I should be building bridges of understanding instead of getting steamed up.

When both sides understand each other, there is no need for suspicion or fear, or threads like these.

Originally posted by marg6043


his actions, views and opinions . . . plus the books are enough facts. . .

And that is your opinion to which you are entitled however allow me to point out many have praised him.

The Wall Street Journal has called Pipes "an authoritative commentator on the Middle East.[1] [2][3] Michael Moran of MSNBC described him as one of the best-known "Mideast policy luminaries" [2]. CNN referred to him one "of the country’s leading experts" on the Middle East. In the Boston Globe Jeff Jacoby wrote, "If Pipes's admonitions had been heeded, there might never have been a 9/11." [4]

A 1984 Business Week book review by Ronald Taggiasco stated that "Pipes has handled his subject well. It is difficult these days to address the question of Islam, the Arabs, and their relations with Israel and remain nonpartisan. Pipes has managed to do just that. He has wended his way through that minefield unscathed" (Business Week, January 30, 1984).

Source

And yes there are also opposing view points under the above, however most are Islam related which makes them highly biased.

If you don't mind could we please leave the conservatism and liberal views out of this?

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Just piping in a bit to answer the underlined part. You have to understand, shots, that Allah is God.

Technically he could not be God but a son of god as was Jesus. That is of course assuming everyone believes there is truly only one god.

I was just pointing out that Allah (A Son of God if you will) was born five hundred years after Jesus.

And no you are not really off topic since we are discussing religious social issues.

Edit to add after refresh I saw the two replies from Grady and Beach and it is clear we are all on the same wagon here. GMTA

[edit on 7/28/2006 by shots]

Originally posted by shots
Technically he could not be God but a son of god as was Jesus.

For a muslim to believe such would be syrik (polytheism) hence we do not believe such. I can't really remember the whole lesson I learned 12 years ago, and too lazy to dig up the quotes and such but basically it comes down to:

- God cannot be duplicated (There is no God but God)
- God cannot be born (God is, was, and ever will be)
- God cannot give birth (for he is the Creator)

Bearing the above in mind, muslims believe that all the previous prophets with all the previous Kitabs were all preaching the same Religion, just previous versions, with Islam and the Qur'an as the final version, so to speak.

Edit to add after refresh I saw the two replies from Grady and Beach and it is clear we are all on the same wagon here. GMTA

[edit on 7/28/2006 by shots]

to you too, though mine is Ginger Ale

Several points to bring up in general here.

1. On the identity of Allah -- it is Muslim belief that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God, that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed were all prophets or messengers of God, and that Mohammed's message supplanted that of Jesus as Jesus' supplanted that of Moses. However, you will not find agreement with much of this coming from Jews or Christians.

Being none of the above myself, I can only say this. All Gods of human theology are metaphors for a Reality that is beyond human understanding, and can be grasped only dimly. In that sense, not only do Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God, but all religious people everywhere do, including polytheists and others completely outside the Abrahamic lineage. Each such conception is a metaphor for the Unknowable, and the Reality underlying each is One.

In practice, however, different religions = different Gods, or anyway different conceptions of the divine. In that respect, Jews, Christians, and Muslims do not worship the same God, as we can see by what each God requires of His worshipers; JHVH demands to be worshiped by Jewish rites, the Holy Trinity by Christian ones, and Allah by Muslim ones. Christians have religious artwork in their churches and (in most denominations) drink alcohol, both of which are forbidden to Muslims. Jews do not proselytize, while Christians and Muslims both do. And so on.

2. Regarding possible home-grown Muslim terrorists in the U.S. -- we must recognize that Islam is only one part, and not the most important part, of what makes a Muslim terrorist. There are teachings within Islam (not uncontroverted teachings, to be sure, but they are there) which encourage violence against unbelievers under certain conditions. But without the seething anger that pervades not only the Middle East but in fact most of the world's less-affluent population, anger at the exploitation practiced by the West and especially by the U.S., those teachings would be seeds on poor soil, and would most likely be ignored in favor of others that hint the other direction. (Remember that the Q'ran, like most sacred texts, can be selectively used to justify almost any behavior. Allah is both a God of war and a God of peace and mercy -- depending on which passages one reads and which one ignores.)

The exploitation by the West is not religiously or culturally motivated. It is purely a matter of power and economics. Thus, Muslims living in the United States are not victimized by it, only those living in the Middle East. For American Muslims, the West's behavior towards much of the world might as well not be happening, except insofar as they sympathize with Muslims living elsewhere (some of whom, to be sure, might be their relatives).

While, as the statistics show, Muslims who actually take part in terrorist activities are a tiny minority, they are also the tip of the iceberg. For every insurgent or suicide bomber, there are very likely millions of Muslims who would not take things that far, but still are angry. It is from that much larger base of anger that the tiny fringe of terrorists arise. American Muslims do not share that anger to anything like the same degree, and so we should not expect Muslim terrorist movements to arise in the United States itself among our native Muslims.

UNLESS, that is, we become so paranoid about the possibility that we subject Muslims to persecution. Then, I believe they might become a good deal more miffed, and rightly so.

Found this in today's news and it is very sad to see that the violence from the middle east against Israel has moved to the US.



The one thing the story does not mention is the individual was a converted Muslim or one from an Arab Nation.

Edit to add it would appear he was not a convert, but a natural born individual of foreign descent.



Isolated case? Perhaps, but it does prove there are fanatics living in the US.


[edit on 7/29/2006 by shots]

Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
Several points to bring up in general here.

1. On the identity of Allah -- it is Muslim belief that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God, that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed were all prophets or messengers of God, and that Mohammed's message supplanted that of Jesus as Jesus' supplanted that of Moses. However, you will not find agreement with much of this coming from Jews or Christians.

[...]

Maybe coz those who do have converted?

Anyway, on your second point -- I fully agree with pretty much all of what you've said. I've been saying it all this while, it's a socio-economic thing.

I mean take me for example. Yes I am muslim and yes I am angry at what the Western powers seem to be doing to my fellow muslims in the middle-east. But I don't feel the urge to "take things into my own hands" so to speak. Not this (referring to the latest post by shots) way. Not through force or violence. And why is this?

Well, I'm not feeling oppressed, I'm not starving or having too little to eat. Plus I've been educated well, taught to be civil, though being a human animal one can't really get rid of emotions so tempers may flair once and so often. But not to the point of physical harm. So all in all I'm not physically or psychologically feeling any pinch.

Besides, the Middle-East is a far away place to me. The only thing I've got connected with it is that I share the same religion with a lot of the people being affected by the Western powers' military-economic policies there.

Now, the minute I become affected directly by their meddling I might not be such a pacifist anymore. Would you just sit back and let an outsider do the same to you? I didn't think so.

Beachcoma:

Thanks for that.

A part of the problem, I think, is that many Americans are in denial about exactly why so much of the rest of the world hates us. They don't want to acknowledge to themselves that it's because of our own government's actions, because we deserve that hate, we've earned it. Or our government has, and since we do elect our government -- well . . .

So they try to explain it other ways. It's because they're jealous of our way of life. It's because they hate freedom. It's because they're religious fanatics. It's something intrinsic to Islam.

No, it's because we dominate the poorer parts of the world selfishly, cruelly, and callously. If we didn't do that, then the religious fanatics would froth at the mouth about someone else instead.

But there's huge psychological resistance to seeing the evidence for this. And that has me worried somewhat. Blind fear is deadly stupid.

I think you would do well to read this, Two Steps:

Since 1946, the United States has given over $146 billion in humanitarian assistance to foreign countries. In 1985, the United States provided over $10 billion in non-military aid abroad, ranging from free food to balance-of-payments support to project-assistance and population-planning programs. AID employs over 4,500 employees to administer these programs, many of which have expanded rapidly under the Reagan administration.

www.cato.org...

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