understanding the trinity......in the Old Testament and the New..

The truth of the Tri-unity of God is only expressed in a veiled way in the Old Testament,

only half-revealed. The Old Testament testimonies of the Trinity are revealed and explained in

the light of Christian faith, as the Apostle Paul wrote concerning the Jews: �But even unto this

day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. Nevertheless, when it shall turn to the

Lord, the veil shall be taken away . . .It is taken away in Christ� (2 Cor. 3:15-16, 14).

The chief passages in the Old Testament which testify to the Trinity of God are the following:Genesis 1:1 and the following verses: the name of God (�Elohim�) in the Hebrew text has

the grammatical form of the plural number.

Genesis 1:26: �And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.� The plural

number here indicates that God is not one Person.

Genesis 3:22: �And the Lord God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good

and evil.� (These are the words of God before the banishment of our ancestors from Paradise.).

Genesis 11:6-7: Prior to the confusion of tongues at the building of the tower of Babylon,the Lord said: �Let us go down, and there confound their language.�

Genesis 18:1-3, concerning Abraham: �And the Lord appeared unto him at the oak of

Mamre . . . And he (Abraham) lifted up his eyes and looked, and lo, three men stood by him... and

he bowed himself toward the ground and said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in Thy sight,

pass not away, I pray Thee, from Thy servant.� Blessed Augustine says of this: �Do you see that

Abraham meets Three but bows down to One . . . Having beheld Three, he understood the mystery

of the Trinity, and having bowed down to One, he confessed One God in Three Persons.�

In addition, the Fathers of the Church see an indirect reference to the Trinity in the following

passages:


www.intratext.com...

hmmmm I disagree there. Trinity is not mentioned anywhere in the old testament, these are very vague interpretations. Also the christian faith didnt have Trinity until the 4th century I think.
The reason why God speaks in plural ( same thing in Qur'an btw) is because he means himself and Angels, not the trinity.
There is only one God, one supreme being. Then there is the Holy Spirit, and finaly God's CREATION, Jesus, but they are in no way equal. That would negate itself, you cant have both, one supreme God with no one equal to him, and on the other hand a Trinity of 3 equal things.
Even Jesus himself said that only one God should be worshipped, hence MONOtheistic religion, and no one and nothing else besides God.

'Paperclip' this concept is quite difficult to fathom, but it is taught in scripture.

Christianity is feircly monotheistic. One God and only One God. The thing with the triunity of God is just something we cannot fathom with our minds, because God is so much greater than our understanding.

So the triunity of God is basically the way God has revealed Himself to us. One God revealed through 3 personalities.

I have a few questions for you 'paperclip'.

I know Muslims repsect moses. The law of Moses requires a animal sacrifice, an unblemished lamb etc.. to atone for our sins.
Jesus Christ then fulfilled the Law (as prophecied) and is now the ultimate sacrifce for our sins, because he died on the cross unblemished (sinless). Thats why beliefe in Jesus is so important, only he can take away our sins, which keep us from God.
How do Muslims atone for there sins?

And why do Muslims say that Ishmael was the son which God tested Abraham with, when the Jewish Torah says it was Isaac, while the Torah(old testiment) pre-dates the Quran by several thousand years.

Just curious, I know you don't mind answering questions.

hmmmm

Every person is responsible for their own actions. You sin, its your sin, you are responsible for what you did. If you truly repent, in your heart, then God is Merciful, and only God can be your judge. Nobody can take away your sins, you are responsible for your actions, only God can FORGIVE them if he wants to.

We believe that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, but not in a way that he takes all our sins, no matter what we do, but we believe that he will save us before the day of judgement, he will fight the final battle between good and evil, saving the humanity.

I do not see a connection between animal sacrifice and crucifixion of Jesus. Animal sacrifice derives from Abraham, if I remember correctly, as a SUBSTITUTE for human sacrifice. Muslims too follow the Law of Moses, animal sacrifice.


The Muslim version goes like this: Abraham had a dream, and in that dream he saw himself killing his son. Thinking that the dream came from God, he told his son that he has to do it. The son said "yes, ok, be God's will", but before he could do it, God spoke to him and said "no" and sent him a lamb to sacrifice. So, no HUMAN sacrifice, sacrifice an animal instead.

I am not sure about the exact time period when Torah was written, but it was not in the time of Abraham, so their guess is just as good as ours

Mohammad was convinced that he is receiving the Qur'an directly from God through an angel, Gabriel. Therefore, it is a TRUE word of God. And if God says it was Ishmail, then humans cant change that

how about this, no need to get into religious scripture here. simply serve yourself by serving others in the most helpful way you can. in other words, just dont be a jerk.

ps: StationsCreation, your avatar looks like a divine face hugger or something crazy like that and it's starting to creeps me out!

God = Love
Jesus = Peace
Holy Spirit = Happiness

Based upon the idea's presented in religious text one can conclude, that with respect to that aspect of reality in which God created heaven and earth. Emotions, which are an aspect of the human condition (and not commonly and or traditionally accepted as concrete), are upon the "higher levels" of existence, as real and solid or concrete, as what we traditionally perceive as such (the human form for example).

Therefore, to exist in such a state suggests with respect to God (in all his mysterious way's mind you), as a being, whose physical existence is pure Love. True peace as well as true Happiness, are irrevocably aspect to pure Love. With respect to the Holy Bible, how Jesus and the Holy Spirit are represented, is suggestive as existing in the same state (as God) and as such one, within the context of form.

But with respect to trinities it should be considered that this concept is altogether a common theme

Any thoughts?

Originally posted by paperclip
hmmmm

Every person is responsible for their own actions. You sin, its your sin, you are responsible for what you did. If you truly repent, in your heart, then God is Merciful, and only God can be your judge. Nobody can take away your sins, you are responsible for your actions, only God can FORGIVE them if he wants to.

We believe that Jesus is the Savior of mankind, but not in a way that he takes all our sins, no matter what we do, but we believe that he will save us before the day of judgement, he will fight the final battle between good and evil, saving the humanity.

I do not see a connection between animal sacrifice and crucifixion of Jesus. Animal sacrifice derives from Abraham, if I remember correctly, as a SUBSTITUTE for human sacrifice. Muslims too follow the Law of Moses, animal sacrifice.


The Muslim version goes like this: Abraham had a dream, and in that dream he saw himself killing his son. Thinking that the dream came from God, he told his son that he has to do it. The son said "yes, ok, be God's will", but before he could do it, God spoke to him and said "no" and sent him a lamb to sacrifice. So, no HUMAN sacrifice, sacrifice an animal instead.

I am not sure about the exact time period when Torah was written, but it was not in the time of Abraham, so their guess is just as good as ours

Mohammad was convinced that he is receiving the Qur'an directly from God through an angel, Gabriel. Therefore, it is a TRUE word of God. And if God says it was Ishmail, then humans cant change that

First of all, there �shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven; and then shall all the

tribes of the earth mourn� (Matt. 24:30). This, according to the universal interpretation of the

Holy Fathers of the Church, will be the sign of the life-giving Cross of the Lord.

The Lord will come surrounded by innumerable choirs of angels, in all His glory: �And they

shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory� (Matt.

24:30), �with the holy angels� (Mark 8:38). �He shall sit on the throne of His glory� (Matt

25:31). Thus, the Second Coming will be different from the first when the Lord �humbled Himself,

and became obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross� (Phil. 2:8).He will come to �judge the world in righteousness� (Acts 17:31) and to �reward every man

according to his works� (Matt 16:27). In this the purpose of His Second Coming into the world

is to be distinguished in essence from the purpose of His first Coming, when He came �not to

judge the world, but that the world through Him might be saved� (John 3:17); He came �to give

His life (as) a ransom for many� (Matt. 20:28).

The second time round Jesus Christ will only judge the living and the dead....not come to forgive our sins!
helen

More on why Jesus Christ is God....
Having acquired a firm belief in the divinity of Christ, the Apostles planted this belief in Him throughout all nations. St. John the Theologian begins his Gospel with the revelation of the divine nature of Jesus Christ:


"In the beginning was the Word,

and the Word was with God,

and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by Him,

and without Him was not anything made that was made�

And the Word was made flesh,

and dwelt amongst us;

and we beheld His glory,

the glory as of the only Begotten of the Father,

full of grace and truth�

No man hath seen God at any time;

the only begotten Son,

who is in the bosom of the Father,

He hath declared Him"

(John 1:1-18).


The name Word bestowed upon the Son of God reveals better than any other name the mystery of the inner relationship between the First and Second Persons of the Holy Trinity, God the Father and God the Son.
A thought and a word are distinct from each other in that the thought dwells in the mind, whereas the word is the expression of the thought; yet the two are inseparable.
The thought does not exist without the word, nor does the word without the thought. A thought is like a word which is concealed within, and a word is that which gives expression to the thought.
The thought takes the form of a word to convey the content of the thought to its hearers. Looked at in this way, the thought, being an independent principle, is the father of the word, and the word is the son of the thought.
The word cannot exist prior to the thought, yet it does not originate from without; it comes from the thought and remains inseparable from the thought. Similarly, the Father, the supreme and all-encompassing Thought, produced from His bosom the Son, the Word, His first Interpreter and Herald (from St. Dionysius of Alexandria).

The Apostles spoke of the divinity of Christ with complete clarity: "And we know that the Son of God is come and hath given us understanding, that we may know Him that is true; and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 5:20) � "of whom are the fathers, and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever" (Romans 9:5) � "Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13) � "Had they (the Jews) known (the wisdom of God), they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" (1 Cor. 2:8)� "For in Him (Christ) dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col. 2:9) � "And beyond controversy, great is the mystery of godliness" (1 Timothy 3:16). And in the first and second chapters of his epistle to the Hebrews, St. Paul the Apostle proves conclusively that the Son of God is not a creature but the Creator and that He is immeasurably superior to all beings created by Him. Angels are simply ministering spirits.


One Person, Two Natures


IT MUST ALSO BE KEPT IN MIND that calling the Lord Jesus Christ God (Theos) in itself speaks of the fullness of divinity. From a logical, philosophical point of view, there cannot be a "second class" God, a God "lower in rank," a "limited" God. The attributes of the divine nature are not subject to conditionality or lessening. If He is God, then He is so completely, not partially.

Only if we assume a unity of Persons in God is it possible to join in one sentence the names of the Son and the Holy Spirit on an equal basis with the name of the Father: "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor. 13:14). "For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one" (1 John 5:7). Here the Apostle John emphasizes that the three are one � i.e., one in essence.

One must clearly differentiate between the understanding of person (hypostasis) and the understanding of nature or essence (ousia). The word person refers to personality, to the "I," and self-consciousness. The old cells of our organism die and are replaced constantly, but the self-consciousness remains throughout our whole life. The word "essence" speaks of nature and constitution. In God there is one nature but three Persons. Because of this, God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit communicate with each other and decide together. Each Person of the Trinity retains His individual properties which distinguish Him from the other Persons. But all the Persons of the Trinity share the same divine nature. The Son has the same essence as His Father and the Holy Spirit. The teaching about the Holy Trinity reveals to us the inner and hidden life in God, which actually is inaccessible to our understanding, but at the same time is absolutely indispensable for the correct faith in Christ.

Jesus Christ has one Person � that of the Son of God, but two natures � divine and human. In His divine nature He is equal to the Father � eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.; in His assumed human nature He resembles us in every way: He grew, developed, suffered, rejoiced, vacillated in decisions, and so on. Christ�s human nature includes both the body and the soul. The difference is, that His human nature is totally free of sinful pollution. Since one and the same Christ is simultaneously God and man, the Holy Scriptures refer to Him sometimes as God and other times as a man. Even more so, sometimes human attributes are assigned to His divinity (1 Cor. 2:8), and divine attributes to His humanity. And there is no contradiction here, since all these attributes belong to the same Person. .

Taking into account the clear teaching of the Holy Scriptures regarding the divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council decided to put a stop to all the misapplications of the term "Son of God" that lessened His divine dignity, and they therefore decreed that Christians believe: "In one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with God the Father, by Whom all things were made."

The Arians heatedly objected to the Greek word meaning "one essence" (homousios) because it could not be explained in any other sense than the Orthodox one, meaning that Jesus Christ is recognized as true God, equal in everything to God the Father. For this reason the Fathers of the Council insisted that this particular word be used in the text of the Creed.



ok I will stop here.....
For those that..........quote///because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.� (John 20:29)

do not look without, look within. you are quoting mere stories. but then again, if you believe in it, then you should have no reason to prove it to others...

Here's the way to understand the Trinity...

We have a monotheistic religion...

Oh crap! We just added a demigod to the mix!!! Pantheism is passe'....!!!

Hey, I know...let's just add in the idea of Divine Spirit, and call it a Trinity, that all are one... That way, it's still monotheism...and we stay fashionable?

Great Idea!!!