Sinner? Or God? Who is the Son of Man?

Marko, do you think the flesh and the spirit are one in the same, if so, Jesus cannot be God. His spirit was one with God, but not his body. This is why he was not spared death, like some at the time expected, because they were thinking the Kingdom would come then and Jesus would come down from the cross and sit on the throne of David. But that didn't happen.

Why?

Jesus never referred to his body as God, but when he spoke about being one, and he and the Father being the same, he was referring to spirit, which is seperate from the body. The Pharisees were shortsighted on this, because they looked to the law and codes to justify their faith in God, instead of what is within oneself.

To worship Jesus as God, therefore is idolatry. His body was just a temple, and as you know that the spirit inside the temple is what makes the temple clean, not the other way around, but nonetheless, the temple is not God but the spirit is. I think this is what Annie is trying to say here in this thread, and a lot of people take words at face value much like a lot of scripture without keeping an open mind and figuring out the meanings behind them. Many of Jesus' statements mean one thing on the surface and have a much deeper meaning if you ask God for the insight to understand them, but don't jump to conclusions based on what you currently know or think you know, because someday you may see otherwise what you think you know today.

I think you should take the time to read over the original post of this thread and consider everything she said. Much of it you probably will not understand, but in time everyone will find the answers. Jesus' death was for a distinct purpose and it goes way beyond dying for sins. His flesh died, yet we die also, so you have to ask the question, "what was the purpose of this", and in fact it all has to do with two different groups of people, the Jews and the Gentiles (God's people and others not of this flock). His flesh (the outside) died physically so that the world can be resurrected as a legal payment for debt of physical sin. This applies to everyone, sinner and saints alike, even the Anti-Christ (which is just a mystery to you, but not to me - hint: she is not an individual, but a legion). Those who believe in the highest form, through God's choosing, becomes like Christ was on earth on the last day (these would be the Jews that are scattered and has nothing to do with present day Israel).....these are the believers who don't need to treat Jesus as God, because they know the spirit well enough to not worship an idol, but the true spirit itself.


If you haven't noticed yet, the lying signs and wonders of the antichrist is in its final stages to convince the world of believing in the flesh, which Jesus said means nothing.
fire shall come down from heaven in full view of men



[edit on 28-7-2006 by ben91069]

Ben~



I gave you a wats, bro!

Originally posted by ben91069
Marko, do you think the flesh and the spirit are one in the same, if so, Jesus cannot be God. His spirit was one with God, but not his body. This is why he was not spared death, like some at the time expected, because they were thinking the Kingdom would come then and Jesus would come down from the cross and sit on the throne of David. But that didn't happen.

Why?

Jesus never referred to his body as God, but when he spoke about being one, and he and the Father being the same, he was referring to spirit, which is seperate from the body. The Pharisees were shortsighted on this, because they looked to the law and codes to justify their faith in God, instead of what is within oneself.

To worship Jesus as God, therefore is idolatry. His body was just a temple, and as you know that the spirit inside the temple is what makes the temple clean, not the other way around, but nonetheless, the temple is not God but the spirit is. I think this is what Annie is trying to say here in this thread, and a lot of people take words at face value much like a lot of scripture without keeping an open mind and figuring out the meanings behind them. Many of Jesus' statements mean one thing on the surface and have a much deeper meaning if you ask God for the insight to understand them, but don't jump to conclusions based on what you currently know or think you know, because someday you may see otherwise what you think you know today.

I think you should take the time to read over the original post of this thread and consider everything she said. Much of it you probably will not understand, but in time everyone will find the answers. Jesus' death was for a distinct purpose and it goes way beyond dying for sins. His flesh died, yet we die also, so you have to ask the question, "what was the purpose of this", and in fact it all has to do with two different groups of people, the Jews and the Gentiles (God's people and others not of this flock). His flesh (the outside) died physically so that the world can be resurrected as a legal payment for debt of physical sin. This applies to everyone, sinner and saints alike, even the Anti-Christ (which is just a mystery to you, but not to me - hint: she is not an individual, but a legion). Those who believe in the highest form, through God's choosing, becomes like Christ was on earth on the last day (these would be the Jews that are scattered and has nothing to do with present day Israel).....these are the believers who don't need to treat Jesus as God, because they know the spirit well enough to not worship an idol, but the true spirit itself.


If you haven't noticed yet, the lying signs and wonders of the antichrist is in its final stages to convince the world of believing in the flesh, which Jesus said means nothing.
fire shall come down from heaven in full view of men

[edit on 28-7-2006 by ben91069]

I agree that the spirit & the flesh are completely different. The flesh IS part of who we are currently. But the spirit/soul is "US" eternally.

I also agree that if you worship the "flesh or body" that could possibly be consedred idoltry. So I see what you're saying here.

However, we don't worship the "flesh" of Jesus, it's WHO he is. It's the Man "inside" the flesh.
He had to be "born into flesh" to come into the world.

What I'm saying is, God & Jesus are one in the same.
Jesus is one of the three manifestations of God.
God IS, the Father, The Son, AND the Holy Spirit.

Genesis tells us that God created the Heavens & the Earth. (and ALL things...)

Read Paul's testimony in Ephesians....
He explains the "Mystery" of Christ....

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,


Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:


Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,


Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:


Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.


Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;


Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

What Paul is saying is, the "Mystery" is (or was) God IS Christ. God created all things BY CHRST. Thus, they are one in the same. And that we may truly know GOD, because we know JESUS.

Men weren't able to fully understand, or know God, until Jesus was sent to Earth.
Jesus was there from the very beginning. He's not a "creation" of God, because that would make him unequal with God.

Do you know what I mean?

I hope you're able to see what is being explained here.
)

"Son of Man" just means a person who is honorable, good, morally and intellectually superior. Superior to the regular common scum. As Confucius would say, "the superior man." Jesus refers to himself in that way, more often than the "son of God," which other people call him.

Interestingly, though, back in the day, "son of a woman," was a pretty harsh insult, like "son of a b****."

Which is interesting when you note that Jesus refers to John the Baptist as a "son of a woman" in Matthew 11:11:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

That's a very curiously disguised insult against John the Baptist, don't you think?

Originally posted by Enkidu
"Son of Man" just means a person who is honorable, good, morally and intellectually superior. Superior to the regular common scum. As Confucius would say, "the superior man." Jesus refers to himself in that way, more often than the "son of God," which other people call him.

Interestingly, though, back in the day, "son of a woman," was a pretty harsh insult, like "son of a b****."

Which is interesting when you note that Jesus refers to John the Baptist as a "son of a woman" in Matthew 11:11:

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

That's a very curiously disguised insult against John the Baptist, don't you think?

OK,
Here is Jesus himself talking to his disciples...... He is trying to explain to them "WHO" he is...

Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.


Jhn 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.


Jhn 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?


Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Jhn 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.


Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?


Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.


Jhn 14:11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


Jhn 14:12 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Jhn 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.


Jhn 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it].


Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


What Jesus is telling Phillip is, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him?"

He also tells them to Keep his commandments. Who gave Moses the 10 commandments that they are to keep? It was God. & Jesus is saying to them, "Keep MY Commandments."

Think about what Jesus is really telling them......
...."LOOK! You want to see the Father, Here he is! ....Right here!!! .... Right in front of you!!! .....Don't you see??....... Don't you know me by NOW?? ..... Keep MY (God's) commandments........ How much clearer can I make it to you Phillip?"

First of all, queenanne, coming across u has been a blessing to me and actually an answer to a prayer. I've been asking 4 the longest for YAHWEH to bring me into the company of other's ho has revealed HISSELF to as HE has to me. People who are what I call "Hard Liners", who don't lean to their own understanding or compromise their spirituality to conform to modern views and interpretations of HIS word. The more HE allows me to see the truth the more I realize how in peril this world & 'the believers' are (Ecclesiastes 1:18).
I feel that the many translations of the scriptures has been 1 of the greatest stumbling blocks to those who seek to know YAHWEH. I also feel that it is 1 of the ENEMY's most successful devices. Many dont realize that godless and/or pagan-worshiping men carried out the translation of the scriptures, and that they incorporated many pagan words & names into the scriptures (i.e. 'God', 'Lord', 'Jesus', 'Amen' & 'testament' just to name a few). For any that may want to research this a good spot is assemblyoftrueisrael.com...

On the subject of Yehushua bieng or not being YAHWEH, a scripture that I haven't seen come up yet that is clearly self-explanatory is Zechariah 14:9....."The Lord is one, And His name is one".

[edit on 3-8-2006 by omniescient]

Originally posted by marko1970
However, we don't worship the "flesh" of Jesus, it's WHO he is. It's the Man "inside" the flesh.
He had to be "born into flesh" to come into the world.

What I'm saying is, God & Jesus are one in the same.
Jesus is one of the three manifestations of God.
God IS, the Father, The Son, AND the Holy Spirit.

I won't toil with this forever, because I think you see the difference in your own ways. I do have one exception and that is the holy trinity. As it is applied, it considers God, the son, and the spirit. God and the spirit are the same, but the son in a body is not because our souls are seperate from the body. This is why there are only two witnesses in accounted for in Revelations which prophesy for 3 1/2 days and then be killed. Also, Jesus says that 2 witnesses are sufficient but when 3 come together, then he is with them. This alludes to a future state in the world, but for now God and spirit are what matters. Jesus' in body, with his miracles, are only a foresight of what is to come, and many people believe in the trinity but do not understand that the body of Christ is not whole yet, for there is one body but many parts. The only part that is in heaven is the head, which is Christ on his throne. The sons of God are beheaded currently, as is noted in Rev.

Anything dealing with the physcial body whether it be Jesus or Sam Walton is idolatry because they are part of the Anti-christ. This is in agreement with why Jesus' body had to die, because his body was like ours and it had to die, therefore it was with sin, but his spirit was not. We too have this ability to become one with God in the spirit by believing and with Gods grace. Our bodies however are doomed to be destroyed one way or another. To think that Jesus body was sinless is blaspheming the spirit and equating his body with God is idolatry. This is all I will say on this, because there are other issues I need to tend to, but hopefully you get something out of this, just as I have evaluated your heart desires with your words and I see that you are a seeker.

Peace be with you, always.

Ben,

I understand what you're saying about the Body.
Just also remember Jesus is NOT in that same physical body. He is in the ressurected/Eternal body. The same body that we'll have in Heaven.

We'll all have perfect understanding of God when we're with him.
The key to salvation though, is to believe, & know that Jesus DID die on the cross & was ressurected.

It's all about Grace by faith & belief. Not deeds, or whether or not we totally understand EVERYTHING ELSE.
God understands that we are only human afterall.......

Just be careful of deception...... people saying things like "You can find the real truth within yourself."
Or, "There are many ways to get to Heaven".
Or being led to believe in a Christ who is different from the true Christ in the Bible. (Like Jesus being Lucifer's brother)

Pay attention to the influence of "New Age" type beliefs that are creeping into churches & religion.

With that said,
God bless you!

Originally posted by marko1970

It's all about Grace by faith & belief. Not deeds, or whether or not we totally understand EVERYTHING ELSE.
God understands that we are only human afterall.......

Faith without deeds is dead. And, yes, YAHWEH knows us to be human. So if, in HIS infinite wisdom HE found reason to share information with us regarding HIS divine will, plan or nature, I believe that HE fully intended for us to understand. It takes spiritual 'eyes' & 'ears' to discern the spiritual truths in the scriptures. All TRUE understanding of HIM is given by HIM, not figured out.

Originally posted by omniescient

Originally posted by marko1970

It's all about Grace by faith & belief. Not deeds, or whether or not we totally understand EVERYTHING ELSE.
God understands that we are only human afterall.......

Faith without deeds is dead. And, yes, YAHWEH knows us to be human. So if, in HIS infinite wisdom HE found reason to share information with us regarding HIS divine will, plan or nature, I believe that HE fully intended for us to understand. It takes spiritual 'eyes' & 'ears' to discern the spiritual truths in the scriptures. All TRUE understanding of HIM is given by HIM, not figured out.

That's exactly MY POINT.
When Jesus told Timothy & Philip, "Keep MY commandments" What did he mean?

Does Jesus have his OWN set of commandments? Or was he talking about GOD'S 10 commandments?
He wouldn't be telling them to keep HIS commandments unless he was explaining to them that he in fact IS GOD.
(Remember God is MORE than JUST the father. God is the Son & the Holy Spirit as well)

They asked to see the Father, & Jesus told them, "if you've seen ME, you've seen the Father. Why do you keep asking to see the father?"

He was trying to reveal the true incredible naturem of God to them. (The "mystery" as John put it)

There IS ONE God. God is 3 unique, but all connected attributes.

If we were Created in God's likeness, what are we supposed to look like? We were created in the likeness of Jesus,...... the Son, The "man", the personal/physical aspect of God.

Originally posted by omniescient
First of all, queenanne, coming across u has been a blessing to me and actually an answer to a prayer. I've been asking 4 the longest for YAHWEH to bring me into the company of other's ho has revealed HISSELF to as HE has to me.

He's gathering, my friend, He's gathering!

Blessed be HIS HOLY NAME!

I'm glad you've showed up!

Our true 'flesh' is our soul--that is our 'substance' -- the body He has/will make incorruptible.

Skin is just skin--sin--covering--a vail. Human skin is always corruptible--even when encasing God. It's called the organic life chain. To be within it is certain death for ALL.
But it, as a whole, is a big part of eternal life!

The body of the man Yehoshua, in order to be acceptable as atonement, would have been consumed by God's fire--just as the offerings Elijah offered high upon Mt. Carmel.

Originally posted by marko1970

We'll all have perfect understanding of God when we're with him.
The key to salvation though, is to believe, & know that Jesus DID die on the cross & was ressurected.

No, Marko, this is the key:

Better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
Psalms 118:8

Just be careful of deception...... people saying things like "You can find the real truth within yourself."

Now how is that deception? Saying that that is deception is the TRUE deception:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. John 14:16-17

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

Or, "There are many ways to get to Heaven".

Just one---you've got to DIE.

Or being led to believe in a Christ who is different from the true Christ in the Bible. (Like Jesus being Lucifer's brother)

Better than that--Heylel is one of the head of the body of Christ!!!

The 'true Christ' is not a single person.