Sinner? Or God? Who is the Son of Man?

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD?
and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Isaiah 45:21-25

This, of course, was before the LORD's visitation.

I have gone round and round, with some here at ATS, in what would seem to many others as 'splitting hairs' in regard to 'was He or wasn't He, GOD?' Some insist that, while on Earth, walking among us as Yehoshua, Christ claimed to be God. This is not so, at least not according to scripture, which is always my plumb line and authority. One of many proofs against this idea is as follows:

John 10:33-38

Unity and identity should not be confused-it makes for a stony path full of perils and pitfalls.

Yehoshua means I AM who saves.
Pre-incarnation He told Moses His name was I AM THAT I WILL BE.
But during the visitation of the LORD, through the instrumentality of the LORD's Christ, He BECAME.
Before the visitation, there was a breach in identity-what was made in the image of the likeness of the CREATOR became 'covered in skin' and there the breach divided. Skin was the manifestation of Sin, and so all skin covered beings were, by default, born into sin, making them Sinners. Yet, Paul, many centuries later, writes this:

Romans 5:14

Adam sinned-by not hearkening to God's voice and trusting God's love by manifesting the spirit of obedience. There had been but one rule-Adam broke it and no more rules were given until Sinai.

And yet, men continued to be born under sin, all, without exception, receiving the wages of sin, which is death-it would seem all men remained SINNERS but not all men SINNED. And even when they did, there were temple sacrifices for the purpose of temporary atonement.

Yehoshua told the Pharisees that they would die in 'their sins.' They could have died with a 'clean slate' according to the law which was in effect at that time, yet still they would be dying a mortal death, enclosed in the very same SKIN they had been born with-dying in the SAME SIN they had been BORN INTO. This is because the breach would be healed in the life and death of Yehoshua, serving in His appointment as the LORD's Christ. God reconciled all things (mankind, creation) to Him (God the Father) through the Son (our LORD God).

In order for this to be effective, man and God had to become ONE, somehow, again-and for God to come, as God, to die (which would be a farce-God, as God, cannot die, being pure Spirit-which means God the FATHER has no SKIN) what would really be accomplished?

First, take the form of the wooden cross-one upright beam and one cross beam-each one representing, respectively, God and mortal man (spirit and flesh, light and dark, righteousness and sin, etc).
Now, take one fleshly mortal man, born of a woman, anointed with the Spirit of God without measure (meaning without reservation-the spirit was FULLY given to Christ by God's will), and nail that fleshly body containing that Spirit to that cursed wooden contraption....

What is the result?

FUSION. UNITY. Identities are no longer singular, but joined. Christ was born as Yehoshua-no different than you or I or anyone else. Christ was born a sinner, yet He died without sin-in between the beginning and end of that precious heroic lifetime a MIRACLE was wrought....man was justified with God, and a Son was honored by the FATHER, saved by the FATHER, even as He saved the world.

Yehoshua was not born justified-he was not born as God-God does not have a mother, as we all know, and certainly Yehoshua had a mother, just like all of us. He was born of a woman, and none born of a woman is justified in God's sight:

www.biblegateway.com...:4-6;&version=9;" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> Job 25:4-6

Yehoshua was under the law of Moses-but this did not justify even himself-all it did was make him guilty of sin.

Romans 3:19-26

Christ did not glorify Himself-God glorified Christ through the death of a sinner, born to a woman, under the law and in full knowledge of sin; and unless we deny that Christ came in the flesh, we must concede that even the LORD's Christ, coming into the world, became guilty before God.

But God is righteous according to His good pleasure-meaning He can do whatever He wants to do-but yet an aspect of righteousness is an adherence, without respect to persons, to the very law He created-God is above the LAW, because He created the LAW, yet God does not break the LAW.

He sent His Son-fully vested with divine and holy spirit-into a body condemned to die because of the sin of Adam and the sinful nature of all flesh is MORTALITY-and when this body, convicted and condemned as a SINNER, but being without SIN-took upon the curse and died upon the tree without protest or fight-perfect obedience in the face of the cruelest execution ever devised by man-and died-a truly mortal and complete death-YET LIVED.....

GOD made the law of sin to no effect-without breaking His LAW and with absolutely no help from anything manifested as 'lawlessness'-God disannulled the covenant of death, established when the law was given at Sinai-God perfected the imperfect law He gave to Moses, overcoming it without ever stepping outside that LAW.

1 Timothy 1:8

He kept His promise to Abraham-He kept His side of all covenants without exception-He remained perfect and just-all these things would be IMPOSSIBLE if not for Him being God-and if Christ was born 'perfect' and not a 'sinner' then no miracle would have been wrought-no strange act would have been performed as promised:

Isaiah 28:16-21

Perazim, BTW, means 'breach.' We know Yehoshua was anointed to do this strange work ordained by God-this is expressly stated in the scriptures.

Yet we stagger at unbelief-at the thought of God seeing Yehoshua as a sinner-at the thought of Yehoshua being both savior and saved-yet we confess, with our lips, (but with our hearts, too? judge yourselves in silence before the LORD) that we are 'sinners' and proclaim staunch belief that God will save us, from our sinful natures even as we remain outwardly imprisoned by our sinner's bodies....

These things are truly HARD SAYINGS.

This is about Abraham, our designated example of the righteousness imputed for faith, just as Christ witnessed as the manifestation of God’s righteousness and, of which Christ was the instrumentality:

Romans 4:20-25

These things were written for profound reasons, and so are things we must trust in and seek to understand – if we would take it upon ourselves to study the scripture in our seeking of God – not necessary, but if that path is chosen, it must be followed with extreme care.

Read Isaiah 53-over and over, if you are willing. Christ did no violence-there was no guile in His mouth-He was without sin. But He was numbered with the transgressors. Being numbered with means was counted as. This is not to the dishonor of Christ, but to His Glory, attesting to God's righteousness which is the source of ALL GLORY-and this is our salvation-as the WORLD, not as 'christians.'

God saved the world--some He appointed to declare this strange and miraculous event--but those that claim they have this appointment have no clear understanding of the mechanisms of the miracle.

*ducking the expected barrage of tomatoes and rotten eggs*

Lay it on me, baby-I can always take a bath!

Originally posted by queenannie38

Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD?
and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Isaiah 45:21-25

This, of course, was before the LORD's visitation.

I have gone round and round, with some here at ATS, in what would seem to many others as 'splitting hairs' in regard to 'was He or wasn't He, GOD?' Some insist that, while on Earth, walking among us as Yehoshua, Christ claimed to be God. This is not so, at least not according to scripture, which is always my plumb line and authority. One of many proofs against this idea is as follows:

Actually,
Jesus DID say he was God. It says so IN the scripture.....

Jesus explicitly told the Jews: (John 10:30–33). “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’”


[edit on 25-7-2006 by marko1970]

Originally posted by marko1970
Actually,
Jesus DID say he was God. It says so IN the scripture.....

Jesus explicitly told the Jews: (John 10:30–33). “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’”

No--the Pharisees misunderstood, and I think you are, too.

I must emphasize my statement of:

Unity and identity should not be confused-it makes for a stony path full of perils and pitfalls.

From The Free Dictionary.com

Unity:

1. The state or quality of being one; singleness.
   
2. The state or quality of being in accord; harmony.
   
3. 
   
   1. The combination or arrangement of parts into a whole; unification.
      
   2. A combination or union thus formed.
      
   
   
4. Singleness or constancy of purpose or action; continuity:

Identity:

1. The quality or condition of being the same as something else.
   
2. The distinct personality of an individual regarded as a persisting entity; individuality.
   

There are many other straightforward statements by Yehoshua that show He was not identifying Himself as God, but rather was unified with God. Joined as ONE. Being joined as ONE requires there first to be TWO. One does not unify with one's self--unity is is not the same as solitude or isolation.

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
~Matthew 19:17

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
~Matthew 7:21

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
~Matthew 10:32

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
~Matthew 11:27

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
~John 20:17

Those are just a few...there are many more. Christ makes it plain that God the Father is in heaven--with words He spoke here among us on Earth. He did profess unity but never once did He outright claim to be God. If some misunderstood, it is not because He led them to do so. They just could not comprehend what He was saying. But we must, if we seek to understand any of this, at all.

One must totally ignore far too many verses, in addition to superimposing the idea of identity upon that of unity, to say that Christ claimed to be God while on earth living as a man named Yehoshua. It is not supported by the scripture, in the least.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by marko1970
Actually,
Jesus DID say he was God. It says so IN the scripture.....

Jesus explicitly told the Jews: (John 10:30–33). “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’”

No--the Pharisees misunderstood, and I think you are, too.





Here are more examples that Jesus DID claim he WAS God.....

“I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!” (Rev. 1:17–18).2

When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples the mother of all questions, “Who do you say I am?” (Matt. 16:15; Mark 8:29; Luke 9:20). Mormons answer this question by saying that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer; Jehovah’s Witnesses answer by saying that Jesus is the archangel Michael; New Agers say Jesus is an avatar or enlightened messenger. Jesus, however, answered by claiming that He was God.

First, Jesus claimed to be the unique Son of God. As a result, the Jewish leaders tried to kill Him because in “calling God his own Father, [Jesus was] making himself equal with God” (John 5:18). In John 8:58 Jesus went so far as to use the very words by which God revealed Himself to Moses from the burning bush (Exod. 3:14). To the Jews this was the epitome of blasphemy, for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God. On yet another occasion, Jesus explicitly told the Jews: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’” (John 10:30–33).

Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the high priest asked Him: “‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Mark 14:61–62). A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus’ words. Caiaphas and the council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was “the Son of Man” who would come “on the clouds of heaven” he was making an overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel’s prophecy (Dan. 7:13–14). In doing so, He was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the universe but prophesying that He would vindicate His claim by judging the very court that was now condemning Him. Moreover, by combining Daniel’s prophecy with David’s proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel’s God and share God’s very glory. To students of the Old Testament this was the height of “blasphemy,” thus “they all condemned him as worthy of death” (Mark 14:64–65).

Finally, Jesus claimed to possess the very attributes of God. For example, He claimed omniscience by telling Peter, “This very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times” (Matt. 26:34); declared omnipotence by not only resurrecting Lazarus (John 11:43) but by raising Himself from the dead (John 2:19); and professed omnipresence by promising that He would be with His disciples “to the very end of the age” (Matt. 28:20). Not only so, but Jesus said to the paralytic in Luke 5:20, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” In doing so, He claimed a prerogative reserved for God alone. In addition, when Thomas worshiped Jesus saying “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28), Jesus responded with commendation rather than condemnation.

Jesus clearly claimed to be God and was God and all your twisting of the truth won't change that.

What is the name of your God?


Game, set, match...........Marko1970

Originally posted by marko1970
Here are more examples that Jesus DID claim he WAS God.....

“I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!” (Rev. 1:17–18).

When was God the Father ever dead? The God of the living was never dead.

When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples the mother of all questions, “Who do you say I am?” (Matt. 16:15; Mark 8:29; Luke 9:20). Jesus, however, answered by claiming that He was God.

Huh?!? Who answered?

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
(Matthew 16:15-17)

And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answered and said unto him, Thou art the Christ.
(Mark 8:29)

He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God. And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
(Luke 9:20-21)

I see absolutely nothing to back up any part of your statement in the verses you referenced. The phrases used: ‘Son of the Living God’ and ‘the Christ of God’ both depend on the idea of there being two mentioned, not one—to say ‘of’ means there must be one (person or thing) belonging to another. Christ means ‘anointed’ and son means ‘builder of the family name.’ Neither one means ‘Father’—the Father is the source of both the anointing as well as the family name.

First, Jesus claimed to be the unique Son of God.

You’ll have to point that one out to me—sounds like churchianity talk, but if you can show me that in the bible, then please do.

I find many verses that state the idea of sonship in the plural:

Genesis 6:2
Genesis 6:4
Job 1:6
Job 2:1
Job 38:7
John 1:12
Romans 8:14
Romans 8:19
Philippians 2:15
1 John 3:1-2

As a result, the Jewish leaders tried to kill Him because in “calling God his own Father, [Jesus was] making himself equal with God” (John 5:18).

They ‘sought the more’ to kill him—they weren’t going to kill him outright—they could not afford that blood on their hands.

That was merely the start, anyway, and basically became an excuse later on—a politically correct means of ridding themselves of a problem which they didn’t know how else to deal with: raising Lazarus from the dead. This was a threat and an issue of far bigger proportions than the accusation of blasphemy.

But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
~John 12:10-11

See, at first, they only ‘desired’ his death—that is the meaning of ‘sought the more to kill him’—but after Lazarus was raised, they deliberately plotted to bring their desires to actuality—that’s what it means by ‘consulted.’

In John 8:58 Jesus went so far as to use the very words by which God revealed Himself to Moses from the burning bush (Exod. 3:14).

God did not reveal Himself—remember what Christ said; Christ is the agent who serves to reveal God the Father.

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
~Matthew 11:27

To the Jews this was the epitome of blasphemy, for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God. On yet another occasion, Jesus explicitly told the Jews: “‘I and the Father are one.’ Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any of these,’ replied the Jews, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’” (John 10:30–33).

Again, their misunderstanding is not meant for us to follow literally—we are to learn from it, yes—but not emulate it.

Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the high priest asked Him: “‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven’” (Mark 14:61–62).

He said ‘the Christ’ which means anointed. He said the ‘son’ of the ‘Blessed One,’ which is understood to be God—there is no ‘unmistakable claim to deity’ here.

A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus’ words.

What is your idea of ‘biblically illiterate?’ It seems to me that you are totally ignoring the conventionally grammatical understandings which qualify as ‘literate’ in the secular application, and then calling it ‘biblically literate.’ The rules of grammar do not stop outside the cover of the bible. Literacy is literacy.

Caiaphas and the council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was “the Son of Man” who would come “on the clouds of heaven” he was making an overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel’s prophecy (Dan. 7:13–14). In doing so, He was not only claiming to be the preexistent Sovereign of the universe but prophesying that He would vindicate His claim by judging the very court that was now condemning Him. Moreover, by combining Daniel’s prophecy with David’s proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that He would sit upon the throne of Israel’s God and share God’s very glory. To students of the Old Testament this was the height of “blasphemy,” thus “they all condemned him as worthy of death” (Mark 14:64–65).

If they knew all that—then why didn’t they recognize Him for who He was? Maybe, just maybe, they weren’t as knowledgeable as you seem to think they were.

Finally, Jesus claimed to possess the very attributes of God. For example, He claimed omniscience by telling Peter, “This very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times” (Matt. 26:34); declared omnipotence by not only resurrecting Lazarus (John 11:43) but by raising Himself from the dead (John 2:19); and professed omnipresence by promising that He would be with His disciples “to the very end of the age” (Matt. 28:20). Not only so, but Jesus said to the paralytic in Luke 5:20, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.” In doing so, He claimed a prerogative reserved for God alone. In addition, when Thomas worshiped Jesus saying “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28), Jesus responded with commendation rather than condemnation.

Where are you getting this stuff?
Did you write it or get it from some website or book? Because I don’t think it’s coming from your own thoughts, at all. It sounds a lot like manufactured religion, IMO—and I’m usually able to discern such a thing quite clearly. If you’re going to discuss these things, then please either show me a link or give me your original ideas and thoughts.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Game, set, match...........Marko1970

I call Foul!

Cheating is an automatic forfeit. You rooted for the wrong team, Sun Matrix.

Your 'champion' seems to have plagiarized the words of this guy:

Hank Hanegraaff

Not only is such a thing dishonest and totally devoid of any sort of true scholastic merit or so-called ‘biblical literacy’; it is also potentially in violation of ATS Terms and Conditions of Usage:

1c.) Intellectual Property: You will not post in a message any copyrighted material, material belonging to another person, nor link to any copyrighted material (with the exception of publicly available sites and pages that the legal owners of the copyrights have created to make that material freely available to the general public), unless that copyright is owned by you or by this website.

as well as copyright infringement.

I apologize for not quite having the hang of "quoting", & that I haven't figured out the "external source" thing either.....

I wasn't trying to say, "Hey, I Wrote This!" or take sole credit for it.....
So I may still have some "format codes" to learn here, Big deal.

But The thing is, The message is still the same. Jesus IS GOD. NOT just "a son"....
...... if you would put as much effort into understaning what the scripture REALLY SAYS, as you do in "playing detective" to find the source of the info, you'd be much happier in life.

Yes I found the info from Hank Hannegeaff. I only meant to share the info, NOT to blatantly plagarize him.
(if it makes you feel better, I'll try to figure out the "quote" format & all that stuff next time)

Now, All that aside, I DO understand why people get confused about the Trinity. I didn't understand it when I was younger.
But Jesus DID say that He is indeed God on several occasions. (How can he be BOTH? you might ask....)
Well, God IS pretty amazing...... what's impossible for you, or for me, isn't necessarily impossible for HIM.

Try asking HIM to help give you the wisdom to understand what the scripture says.

That's all I'm really trying to say.

So again, I'm sorry my last post was formatted wrong, & looked like I was just using someone else's words as my own. That was not my intention.

That's cool, Marko. But you might want to review the ATS rules, so you don't get a warning.

At any rate, your sources are basing their studies on their opinions - I'm working from what God shows me. Pray about it, He'll let you know.

Originally posted by queenannie38
That's cool, Marko. But you might want to review the ATS rules, so you don't get a warning.

At any rate, your sources are basing their studies on their opinions - I'm working from what God shows me. Pray about it, He'll let you know.

LOL!!!
Thanks for the heads up! I appreciate it!

I do have to think they are basing their opinions on scripture though.
I also believe that jesus DID say he was God. (because of the verses mentioned & the context in which they written)

Especially John 10:30-33
....where they going to stone him, because He,a mere man (so they thought) "Claimed to be God"

I respect your opinion, though I disagree with it.

It can be confusing when Jesus talks about "the Father in Heaven", so I understand how people don't understand that Jesus was/IS God.

He also says, "If you know me, you know my father".
And.......
"I and my Father are the same".

I think the MAIN thing that is important is that you believe that Christ DID die on the cross, & rose again so that we can have everlasting life.
He paid out debt of sin in FULL for us.

I think misunderstanding certain parts of the scripture is OK with him, & won't cause people to send themselves to Hell.
... God DOES say that the ONE UNFORGIVABLE sin is to reject him& turn away from him completely. To deny God, & the fact that he enacted a plan of salvation is the one thing God says is unforgivable.

So when People have different opinions & ideas of what certain scriptures mean is not going to doom them.


As an example, look at the different opinions concerning Revelation. There are people who believe much of that has already taken place, & the AntiChrist / Beast has come & gone with Ceasar Nero....


Anyway, as long as we can laugh off the misunderstanding concerning my post with the info from Hank, it's all good!
)

Originally posted by marko1970
LOL!!!
Thanks for the heads up! I appreciate it!

I do have to think they are basing their opinions on scripture though.
I also believe that jesus DID say he was God. (because of the verses mentioned & the context in which they written)

Well, you are free to believe as you wish.

I respect your opinion, though I disagree with it.

Well, thanks, but really, it doesn't matter--either the respect or the agreement (or lack of). I am just reporting what I've been given to report. I also know that my report won't be received except by a very few.

It can be confusing when Jesus talks about "the Father in Heaven", so I understand how people don't understand that Jesus was/IS God.

Right. I understand who the Father and the Son are--because it must be revealed and that is the only way. However, to worship the man Yehoshua, as Yehoshua (being a God) is idolatry.

I think misunderstanding certain parts of the scripture is OK with him, & won't cause people to send themselves to Hell.

Misunderstanding privately is something He can and will correct. Teaching misunderstanding is something He will hold us accountable for. Hell is the grave--it will be done away with. Yet all men will remain accountable--every word we speak will be brought before us as testimony for or against us.

... God DOES say that the ONE UNFORGIVABLE sin is to reject him& turn away from him completely. To deny God, & the fact that he enacted a plan of salvation is the one thing God says is unforgivable.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is basically 'scorn of the truth.' So, perhaps it does matter what we listen to and regard as truth. Too many feel sure and then teach--this is to their detriment.

As an example, look at the different opinions concerning Revelation. There are people who believe much of that has already taken place, & the AntiChrist / Beast has come & gone with Ceasar Nero....

The reason for this is because there is no valid 'opinion' regarding Revelation. Revelation is unveiling of truth--given only by God. And that very same book says there is but ONE who is worthy to open those sealed scrolls. All the myriad 'profits' flooding the airways and cyberspace are not the slain LAMB. Therefore they are all just speculating and postulating. And what for? What will be, will be.

The bad thing is that they are leading many astray with foolish talk of rapture and tribulation. (Jacob's trouble is not about 'christianity.') They cannot steal and keep what is not theirs, to begin with. God is the boss, not men, not preachers, not religious scholars.

God's will WILL be done--when His kingdom comes, it will be on Earth as it is in Heaven. And it's approaching, even as we speak.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by marko1970
LOL!!!
Thanks for the heads up! I appreciate it!

I do have to think they are basing their opinions on scripture though.
I also believe that jesus DID say he was God. (because of the verses mentioned & the context in which they written)

Well, you are free to believe as you wish.

I respect your opinion, though I disagree with it.

Well, thanks, but really, it doesn't matter--either the respect or the agreement (or lack of). I am just reporting what I've been given to report. I also know that my report won't be received except by a very few.

It can be confusing when Jesus talks about "the Father in Heaven", so I understand how people don't understand that Jesus was/IS God.

Right. I understand who the Father and the Son are--because it must be revealed and that is the only way. However, to worship the man Yehoshua, as Yehoshua (being a God) is idolatry.

I think misunderstanding certain parts of the scripture is OK with him, & won't cause people to send themselves to Hell.

Misunderstanding privately is something He can and will correct. Teaching misunderstanding is something He will hold us accountable for. Hell is the grave--it will be done away with. Yet all men will remain accountable--every word we speak will be brought before us as testimony for or against us.

... God DOES say that the ONE UNFORGIVABLE sin is to reject him& turn away from him completely. To deny God, & the fact that he enacted a plan of salvation is the one thing God says is unforgivable.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is basically 'scorn of the truth.' So, perhaps it does matter what we listen to and regard as truth. Too many feel sure and then teach--this is to their detriment.

As an example, look at the different opinions concerning Revelation. There are people who believe much of that has already taken place, & the AntiChrist / Beast has come & gone with Ceasar Nero....

The reason for this is because there is no valid 'opinion' regarding Revelation. Revelation is unveiling of truth--given only by God. And that very same book says there is but ONE who is worthy to open those sealed scrolls. All the myriad 'profits' flooding the airways and cyberspace are not the slain LAMB. Therefore they are all just speculating and postulating. And what for? What will be, will be.

The bad thing is that they are leading many astray with foolish talk of rapture and tribulation. (Jacob's trouble is not about 'christianity.') They cannot steal and keep what is not theirs, to begin with. God is the boss, not men, not preachers, not religious scholars.

God's will WILL be done--when His kingdom comes, it will be on Earth as it is in Heaven. And it's approaching, even as we speak.

I DO agree that it IS all up to God. & that the time is much closer than people may think.

Jesus was & is the Messiah. The one who was crucified & ressurected.


Jesus is God in the flesh, or physical body. He referred to himself as "the Son" on Earth, because he WAS & IS the physical incarnation of God.

Just like you & I are souls, ......we have a physical body. We are both our body & our soul.

Does that make sense?

The Trinity represents 3 distinct "personalities" of God, so to speak.

The Holy Spirit is the 3rd part of God, which dwells within us. It is the guidence, knowledge & wisdom of God. The spirit that envokes emotions within us.
The holy Spirit is what connects us directly WITH God, so that we can know him, & allows him to be a part of us.

Christ says "I am my father are one". The Bible teaches that there is only ONE God. Jesus taught that, & all throughout the scriptures, it is made clear that there is but one God.
SO.....If Christ AND the Father are "one", they are the same.
There can't be 2 Gods, & Christ can't be a completely seperate entity from God if he & God are One.

Take a look at Luke 4:1-13
Satan is tempting Jesus in the wilderness, & Jesus reveals that he IS INDEED God.



Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,


Luk 4:2 Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.


Luk 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.


Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.


Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.


Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.


Luk 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.


Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Luk 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:


Luk 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:


Luk 4:11 And in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.


Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.


Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.


Jesus would not tell satan to worship him if he were not God himself.
If he were only the son of God, this would not be possible. OR would also be in defiance of God's word....

What Jesus is telling satan here is,
"I am YOUR (thy) GOD! You are to worship & serve ME! NOT the other way around! You're not allowed to tempt ME (God)."

Marko, not one of those passages from Luke actually shows Jesus stating he is God. Every statement he makes refers to his Father. This is why the Pharisees claimed he was blaspheming God, because they hear only what they want to hear just like you are.

If Satan came to me and asked me the same questions and I remarked the same way that Jesus did, would that make me God? Of course not, because I would be referring to my Father in every one of them just as Jesus was doing.

Originally posted by ben91069
Marko, not one of those passages from Luke actually shows Jesus stating he is God. Every statement he makes refers to his Father. This is why the Pharisees claimed he was blaspheming God, because they hear only what they want to hear just like you are.

If Satan came to me and asked me the same questions and I remarked the same way that Jesus did, would that make me God? Of course not, because I would be referring to my Father in every one of them just as Jesus was doing.

Ben,
I do understand what your saying here.
Jesus did refer to himself as the Son of God Most of the time. Because he is indeed the Son. However, he is more than JUST the son..... he IS God as well.
It's not easy for us as humans to understand how that would be possible, because our grasp of things outside the realm of our physical existence isn't able to fully comprehend some of those things.

Satan is tempting Jesus in Luke Chapter 4. & in verse 12 especially, Jesus tells him "You shall not tempt the Lord thy God" (Or in essence, "Do not tempt ME").
Jesus is confronting Satan as to whom he is tempting, which is himself. Thus by saying "Do not tempt GOD", he is stating that he (the Son) is also God.

Does that make sense?

There are other verses in the Bible as well, that show Christ explained that he, The Son of God, is in fact God himself in the Flesh.

The apostles knew this, because they understood what Jesus was telling them.
"I and my Father are One"
"If you know ME, you know My Father"

Also, we know that only God can truly forgive our sins. So take a look at this example:


Luke 5:19 And when they could not find by what [way] they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with [his] couch into the midst before Jesus.


Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.


Jesus could only have the power to forgive sin if he were in fact God.

This also shows how much more amazing & powerful God really is! he IS the father, & yet he is the SON. Jesus is the physical personna of God.

Pretty awesome if you think about it!
)

Originally posted by marko1970
Jesus could only have the power to forgive sin if he were in fact God.

Everyone has the ability to forgive sins by the spirit and only through the spirit of God. Does this make us Gods as well?

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by marko1970
Jesus could only have the power to forgive sin if he were in fact God.

Everyone has the ability to forgive sins by the spirit and only through the spirit of God. Does this make us Gods as well?

Maybe I misunderstand what you mean....

Yes, we can forgive each other for daily issues, like name calling, or hurting someone emotionally or physically...etc.
(is that what you were saying?)

But as far as SINS go, we ourselves I don't believe, have the true power or ability to forgive those. Not in the same way God sees them & forgives them.

None of us personally are able to "wipe the slate clean with God" so to speak, for someone else. That's all between the individual & God himself.

The only way to have true salvation & forgiveness of sin, is to confess to God, & repent... and accept and BELIEVE that Christ died & was ressurected, so that we could be forgiven.

None of us are, or ever WILL BE Gods. We are his creation. His "children".

However, I do believe the Holy Spirit of God can help us, and give us the wisdom to help other people find their way to God. THAT is something we have the ability to do.
We can help someone with their understanding of the need to repent & ask for the forgiveness that God offers all of us.

So, because God is really the only one that can forgive SIN, when Jesus told different people that they were forgiven, the only way he could truly & honestly offer that redemption is if he himself was/is God.

That's the point I'm trying to explain, so hopefully that makes sense.

)

Marko, I wasn't referring to name calling and such but what you would consider a sin by Gods word. Murder, rape, adultery, theft. These are sins, no.

Jesus said every sin against him would be forgiven except blasmephing the spirit.

Some people can forgive a murderer or a rapist or what have you. I meant does this make them Gods since you say only Jesus could forgive by the spirit, which made him God?

Love is unconditional, is it not? Then if we are capable of forgiving these, then I suppose that makes us Gods too by your evidence.

Originally posted by ben91069
Marko, I wasn't referring to name calling and such but what you would consider a sin by Gods word. Murder, rape, adultery, theft. These are sins, no.

Jesus said every sin against him would be forgiven except blasmephing the spirit.

Some people can forgive a murderer or a rapist or what have you. I meant does this make them Gods since you say only Jesus could forgive by the spirit, which made him God?

Love is unconditional, is it not? Then if we are capable of forgiving these, then I suppose that makes us Gods too by your evidence.

OK, I see what you meant now.
However, what WE are able to forgive someone for, is the action, & the hurt it causes.

Yes, all those things are sins that you listed, but the forgiveness WE can offer is not the same as the way GOD forgives. HIS forgiveness is on a much deeper level. So by US forgiving someone for an action, it's a person to person forgiveness.... not the type to bring salvation to one's soul.

ALSO- I found the scriptures I was trying to think of, showing where GOD is the only one who can truly "forgive" sins in the way that will bring salvation....
Pay attention to what jesus is telling them....

Mar 2:4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken [it] up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.


Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.


Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,


Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?


Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?


Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?


Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)


What he is telling them is that Yes, they are correct. GOD is the only one that can forgive sins.... But The Son of Man (Jesus) has the power ON EARTH to forgive sins.....

How would that be possible? - It would only be possible if he were in fact GOD on Earth, in the personna of Jesus.
Jesus, being the ONLY true pure & holy person who lived on Earth could not lie, nor mislead people & tell them he could forgive them if it were not true.
(is that agreeable?)

The key thing is, you need to read, & understand the true context of what he is telling these people.

Which is in essence, "I know only God can forgive sin..... & I tell you, I forgive you".

I'm fairly certain we can all agree on one thing.....

That there was only ONE(person/spirit) from Heaven, who has come to Earth in the Flesh.

That being Jesus, the Messiah.
(Agreed?)

Here's what I've been trying to explain. How you can understand that Jesus IS God.

Keep in Mind how often people referred to Jesus as "Lord".....
Now read the following passages.
ESPECIALLY the one from I Timothy.....



Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw [it], he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.



God was in the flesh, on earth.... as Jesus.
yes, a great controversy & mystery indeed!!!!

;o)

*cheers*