I am getting tired of hearing about the “innocent civilians” Israel has been killing. The people of Lebanon decided to leave Hezbollah in place knowing that its continued aggression against Israel would someday wake the lion.

If another nation attacked the US based on aggression against it by our government, I would not blame them for the Americans that die, and I am sure that intelligent people on the other side would not demonize me for fighting that nation, just as I did not think ill of the Iraqis fighting me while I was invading their country and killing their militia/terrorists.

We choose every day to support our government and allow its existence, right or wrong, when we don’t take all necessary action to remove it, and we are therefore responsible for its actions. In the same way are the people of Lebanon responsible for the actions of Hezbollah.

Just as the allies bombed “innocent civilians” in Germany and Japan for the actions of the leaders those “innocents” chose to leave in power, so will any nation’s innocents die when another country gets tired of the military action taken against it by militaries those “innocents” let operate in their territory.

Don’t like it? Well then don’t let people who blow up foreign buses hide in your city.

Originally posted by cavscout
IThe people of Lebanon decided to leave Hezbollah in place knowing that its continued aggression against Israel would someday wake the lion.

Hmmmmmmmm. I guess Iraqi's would fall into this category with Sadam eh? Or the people of say Somalia cause they "allow" the warlords to rule thier country. Woah, better put the Columbians on the list cause of all the drug lords etc etc etc.

Well said FredT. Your comments expose the faulty logic of the original contention.

Originally posted by cavscout
If another nation attacked the US based on aggression against it by our government, I would not blame them for the Americans that die,

Having read your posts for some time now, I find that HIGHLY unlikely.

600,000 people now are homeless refugees, hundreds are dead and the Lebanese infratstructure is demolished to the point of humanitarian crisis. Israel is blowing up Milk Factories and Food Distribution Facilities, Power and Media Outlets and 1/3 of the total casualties are children. I guess being Lebanese somehow makes the little kids there terrorists as well?
You seem to forget that Israel herself was in Lebanon for twenty some odd years and didn't manage to jack doodley about Hezbollah in that time, now they hold a two year old government responsible for them?
What if Russia told us if we didn't control our inner city Gangs, then they were going to bomb and invade us cavscout? Let's say you live in NYC, are you then responsible for the gang related violence going on down the street, would it be ok for NYPD to shoot your kids then in retaliation? That's about what your saying once you wipe the ethnocentricity off it.

Originally posted by FredT

Originally posted by cavscout
IThe people of Lebanon decided to leave Hezbollah in place knowing that its continued aggression against Israel would someday wake the lion.

Hmmmmmmmm. I guess Iraqi's would fall into this category with Sadam eh?

The first time yes. This time? No.

Iraq allowed Saddam to do his thing to them, not to others. Big difference. However, if the Kurds decided to invade southern Baghdad and oust Saddam, then it would apply to the Sunnis who sponsored Saddam.

Its kinda like if allowed a person to sit in your house and shoot at my house across the street. If I shoot back and accidentally hit you instead of the shooter, am I at fault? No, you are for letting the man use your home as a bunker, and for staying in it instead of leaving and calling for help or disposing of the shooter yourself. Your problem, not the defender.

Don’t like it? Well then don’t let people who blow up foreign buses hide in your city.

I was wondering if you could show one example where Hezbollah blew up a foreign bus.

I know others have blown up Israeli busses, but Hezbollah is the Lebanese militia, and charity organization.

I don't believe blowing up busses is on their agenda.

[edit on 22-7-2006 by Malichai]

I smell an exremely bias person... could I be right? Are you willing to put on record that there is not one Lebenese worth saving? *Mr. T voice* I pity the fool.

Originally posted by twitchy
Having read your posts for some time now, I find that HIGHLY unlikely.

How so? I have stated the same thing time and again. I would not blame one of these countries we are fighting if they decide to invade our nation to stop the hostilities against them. I just hope they wouldn’t blame for shooting them in the face, just as I felt bad for the Iraqis trying to kill me before I shot them in the face.

1/3 of the total casualties are children. I guess being Lebanese somehow makes the little kids there terrorists as well?

That does suck about the children, unfortunately nothing can be done about that. Collateral damage happens. If Israel was targeting children then that would be another story. Children cannot be blamed for the actions of their parents, but unfortunately they must often suffer for them. Good thing they get a free ride into heaven, untested; they deserve it and I salute them.

What if Russia told us if we didn't control our inner city Gangs, then they were going to bomb and invade us cavscout?

Well, if those gangs were bombing Russia, then I guess I would understand where they were coming from. Not that I wouldn’t fight them, but I would understand why they were fighting us.

Let's say you live in NYC, are you then responsible for the gang related violence going on down the street, would it be ok for NYPD to shoot your kids then in retaliation?

Not the same thing at all. Israel is not shooting babies in retaliation, it targeting Hezbollah and infrastructure that Hezbollah utilizes and the children are collateral damage.




Look, its real simple. Control your people or someone else will.

Originally posted by AnAbsoluteCreation
I smell an exremely bias person... could I be right?

No, you are wrong. I have applied logic without feeling. Although I do support Israel for personal reasons this has no bearing on my view as it pertains to this thread. Any nation should be able to defend against a hostile nation or a nation that allows military groups to launch an offensive from its territory.

Are you willing to put on record that there is not one Lebenese worth saving? *Mr. T voice* I pity the fool.

No. All Lebanese are worth saving, as are the rest of mankind. That does not change the fact that they let a military commit acts of war against a sovereign nation while on their territory and are therefore not innocent.

No. All Lebanese are worth saving, as are the rest of mankind. That does not change the fact that they let a military commit acts of war against a sovereign nation while on their territory and are therefore not innocent.

I don't believe they LET it happen. The Hezbahla militia is a very skilled army, funding by Iran and Syria. The Lebenese army on the other hand are weak by comparision. So the unfortunate part is that Hezbalah has manhandled to get their position in S. Lebonon and there wasn't anything anyone could do. Before the war, the mnajority of Lebenese opposed Hezbolah even after they give all their charities. I don't believe the civilians of S. Lebenon could stop them any more than the kurds could stop Saddam. AAC

The average citizen isn't going to take on an armed and dangerous terrorist group even if they are against that group. So I completely disagree with your theory.

Originally posted by Malichai

Any nation should be able to defend against a hostile nation or a nation that allows military groups to launch an offensive from its territory.

So you are saying that Lebanon should be able to defend itself from Israel

Sure, if it can.

a nation that allowed its military to launch an offensive from its territory.

Thats not how I see, but sure, it should be able to defend its self against any attacker however it can. Remember, I am leaving emotions and personal feelings out of this. I personally support Israel in its undertakings, however I do not think that Israel is innocent.

Should Lebanon also be able to defend themselves from illegal occupation of their land?

Again, yes, if they can.

Israel still occupies the Shebba Farms District which is Lebanese land.

Which is (one reason) why Lebanon let Hezbollah stay, and therefore not innocent.

Originally posted by snowflake_obsidian
The average citizen isn't going to take on an armed and dangerous terrorist group even if they are against that group. So I completely disagree with your theory.

Civil wars have happened frequently throughout history. Strong nations have assisted in the rebellion of minority groups belonging to other nations throughout history.

Show me the cries for assistance in the removal of Hezbollah. Show me the Lebanese uprising against Hezbollah and the government allowing it to stay.

Human history is full of examples of small groups of people overtaking large and harmful internal organizations, just not Lebanon's history.

They chose not to do anything about Hezbollah so Israel did something about Hezbollah for them and to them.

Which is (one reason) why Lebanon let Hezbollah stay, and therefore not innocent.

I don't get your rationalization.

Why would the innocent Lebanese people suddenly not be innocent because Hezbollah, a charity and defense organization, stayed in Lebanon?

You do understand that these people are Lebanese?

Where do you suppose they should go?

Originally posted by Malichai
Where do you suppose they should go?

To their homes, after laying down their weapons.

Originally posted by cavscout

Originally posted by Malichai
Where do you suppose they should go?

To their homes, after laying down their weapons.

Lay down their weapons as the enemy is invading?

Try telling that to Americans.

Give up your arms as the enemy crashes the gate.

Originally posted by Malichai

Don’t like it? Well then don’t let people who blow up foreign buses hide in your city.

I was wondering if you could show one example where Hezbollah blew up a foreign bus.

I know others have blown up Israeli busses, but Hezbollah is the Lebanese militia, and charity organization.

I don't believe blowing up busses is on their agenda.

[edit on 22-7-2006 by Malichai]

This is actually a fact. Hammas and the PLO used these tactics against Israel, Hammas and the PLO also purposely targeted civilians and still do to cause terror. Hezbollah does NOT purposely kill civilians, and they have no intrest in it. There is nothing to gain from slaughtering women and children and they ackknowledge that, they do however strike military targets and that is why the Israeli government is attacking them, because they have massed to much strength. Hezbollah would occasionaly kill civilians and kidnaped civilians, so they are not entirely innocent. The rocket strikes on Haifa Israel are actually thought to be aimed at a fuel storage facility but the rockets have poor accuracy. And because the Hezbollah militia attacked from within Lebanese borders, Lebanon is responsible, as Hezbollah is also a political party of Lebanon. Syria and Iran are more responsible as they fund and train the militia, they to will be dealt with soon enough.

Isn't it funny that the "kidnapped" soldiers now seem to be forgotten? Thanks for the "what really happened" link - it demonstrates that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon and not kidnapped from within Israel.

That chimes well with the idea of yet another manufactured incident to allow one country to invade another. These things happen all the time and it reminds me of the provocation for Hitler's invasion of Poland.

So if the incident that sparked this slaughter of civilians - and let's face it, it's not the first time Israelis have killed innocent people (I'm thinking of Sabra and Chatila and further back, the hotel bombing that precipitated the British withdrawal from Palestine) - was fabricated, that must leave the justification for the war completely shattered.