Would A Turkish Incursion Of Iraqi Kurdistan Be Justified?

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posted on Jul, 22 2006 @ 02:20 PM
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Hi. As usual, sorry if this has been covered elsewhere.



Radio Free Europe - July 21 2006

Turkey has said it was taking steps this week to prepare for a cross-border incursion into northern Iraq to hunt down Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) fighters holed up in the Qandil Mountain range. The announcement came following a series of PKK attacks on Turkish troops in recent days that left more than a dozen soldiers dead.

The United States maintains that any Turkish military operation could destabilize Iraqi Kurdistan. U.S. Ambassador to Ankara Ross Wilson told Turkey's NTV television on July 17 that the United States would oppose any unilateral action on Turkey's part.

Wilson denied that the U.S. position reflected a double standard because of its support for Israel's attack on Hizballah positions in southern Lebanon, saying that Israel's circumstances were different. "Turkey has an ally in Iraq. Israel does not have such an opportunity. Besides, [the] PKK is not only in the north of Iraq, it is in Europe and in Turkey. Entering the north of Iraq will not resolve the problem," Anatolia quoted Wilson as telling the news channel. The ambassador's remarks were widely criticized in the Turkish press.


The long running 'battle' between Turkey and the PKK has been well-documented, and the Turks seem to be in the mood to take a stand. Given that the PKK is a terrorist organisation, which launches oerations against Turkey, should Turkey not be allowed to take the bull by the horns and attempt to defeat the PKK once and for all. It doesn't seem like the US is willing to do as much as Turkey would like to stop the PKK.

Incidentally, the following piece appeared on the BBC site this week -



BBC - July 20 2006

Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul has warned that moderate Turks are becoming anti-American and anti-EU.

Mr Gul said many Turks were embittered by the US' support for Israel's actions in Lebanon and by Turkey's problems in joining the EU.

And he again warned that Turkey would have to act if the US and Iraq failed to stop by the Turkish Kurdish rebel group, the PKK, which is operating from Iraq.


[edit on 22-7-2006 by KhieuSamphan]




posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 01:35 AM
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It doesn't surprise me that the Turks are casting an eye towards northern Iraq just now. At this point in time, they have too much to lose by starting something. Even if they could gain ground fst enough, they wouldn't be able to kill Kurds fast enough before a forced withdrawl to satisfy their..."interests."

I think the Turks are going to have no choice but to sit back and wait for a later...opportunity...to conclude their dealings with the Kurds. The international situation is such that any military moves on their part would be met with harsh sanctions that could be made to stick.

All of this assumes that the Turkish position is really what it looks like. They could just be rattling their sabre to appear mildly hostile to western interests so as to appease the Iranians.



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 04:58 AM
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The last think the Turks want is any kind of autonomous Kurdish state/enclave on their borders...plus this could be a move to try and grab access to the Northern Iraqi oil feilds?



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 06:08 AM
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Under current international standards Turkey can do whatever it likes and strike into Iraq and even occupy land to displace any Kurds.
If the Turks see the Kurds as terrorists then anything goes. As we have seen elsewhere, the international community opinion just does not matter. To criticise Turkey when Israel does whatever it wants would just not do



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by Britguy
To criticise Turkey when Israel does whatever it wants would just not do.

This is the obvious reasoning, isn't it?

However, I wonder if it more subtle that that. It seems that a significant driver in today's policy decisions is something akin to the Greens' 'Precautionary Principle'. This may give the Turkish Government a framework of sorts with which to justify any military action, rather than just 'What's good for the goose...'. Unless America sorts out their complaints first, of course.

Anyhow, here's some snippets from today -



MSNBC - 23 July 2006

Meanwhile, Ankara's frustration with Washington has grown palpable. For all the Bush administration's repeated promises to crack down on the PKK, little if anything has happened. With elections coming next year, Erdogan could be pardoned for soon concluding that his forbearance might prove politically dangerous.

...

The Turkish press has been baying for action, with even the solidly pro-American Turkish Daily News railing in an editorial that "Turkey is no banana republic that can leave its security to the mercy of others." Another editorial posed the question more directly. "Why is it that Israel has the right to 'self-defense'," the paper asked, "and not Turkey." The country's usually fractious parliamentary opposition, in a rare moment of unity, called for active intervention. "Opposition," says True Path Party leader Mehmet Agar, "ends at Habur"—Turkey's border crossing with Iraq.

...

For all the clamor for a military strike, "the sane members of the Turkish General Staff are aware of the costs of going into northern Iraq," says independent analyst Grenville Byford.





Turkish Daily News - 23 July 2006

With the twin elections in 2007 approaching, opinion polls suggest that nationalism is the rising trend. In the foreseeable future, the government may find little interest and motivation in shifting back to liberal, pro-Western rhetoric.

...

Apparently running out of patience, Erdoğan picked up a verbal duel with U.S. Ambassador in Ankara Ross Wilson, who had warned against unilateral military action in Iraq and advised coordinated steps with the United States and Iraq instead.

...

Mideast tension touching raw nerves: The Israeli offensive in the Middle East has not only exacerbated Turkish grievances over not being heard by the United States in the anti-terror requests, but also touched on certain ideological sensitivities that are hardly confined to Turkey's far leftists and Islamist circles, in which Erdoğan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) also has roots.



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by Britguy
Under current international standards Turkey can do whatever it likes and strike into Iraq and even occupy land to displace any Kurds.
If the Turks see the Kurds as terrorists then anything goes. As we have seen elsewhere, the international community opinion just does not matter. To criticise Turkey when Israel does whatever it wants would just not do


Let the Turks invade! And the world will watch as the Turks are massacred in their own campaign. Turkey is a joke, they may have beaten up some defenseless civilians in the past but against the PKK they have lost and lost and lost unless they go as far as killing anyone of Kurdish decent. The United States should support at Kurdistan, they are free loving people that have great skill in economy.

The biggest businesses growing out of the Iraqi invasion are Kurdish, Kurdistan provides their own security, so secure in fact it is a haven for urban runaways on weekends to go visit the relaxing markets and feelings of security. Kurdistan is an ideal partner for America in the region, they also have a defiant militia army that defends its self to the death. Both Turkey and Iran fear a Kurdistan and the power displacement they would bring to the region.

Also if Turkey where to... try.. and invade Kurdistan they will loose any hope of getting in the EU, which they wont anyways but any trade package will go out the _



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck

Let the Turks invade! And the world will watch as the Turks are massacred in their own campaign. Turkey is a joke, they may have beaten up some defenseless civilians in the past but against the PKK they have lost and lost and lost unless they go as far as killing anyone of Kurdish decent.


Obviously you don't know anything about the Turkish military strength. If you think the Turks will get masacred, then please elaborate why.



Originally posted by Rockpuck
The United States should support at Kurdistan, they are free loving people that have great skill in economy.


So the US should support those freedom loving people, while they should condemn the actions of the freedom loving people of Lebanon, because they fight against an ally of the US, while Kurdistan isnt'. At least, you defend the Israeli agression in other threads.



Originally posted by Rockpuck Kurdistan is an ideal partner for America in the region, they also have a defiant militia army that defends its self to the death. Both Turkey and Iran fear a Kurdistan and the power displacement they would bring to the region.


Like Bin Laden and Sadam once were? You are a funny guy, Iran has nothing to fear from weak Kurdistan.


Originally posted by Rockpuck
Also if Turkey where to... try.. and invade Kurdistan they will loose any hope of getting in the EU, which they wont anyways but any trade package will go out the _


I'll second that, which would be a good thing.



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 02:25 PM
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Mdv this thread has absolutely nothing to do with Israel and Lebanon, which I do support. Yes Iran and Turkey openly admit fear of a Kurdistan, the PKK have proven to be formidable fighters. The PKK is not what I support, I support Kurdistan, PKK is a party that not many Kurds actually like, but keeps them safe. What i get from your post is that you would be OK with Turkey murdering millions of Kurds? Even though you condemn Israel for their actions? I know Turkey could get rid of the Kurdish problem, but like I said, which you did not see apparently, would be to massacre the entire region and commit genocide, other wise like every other time they go after them it is just another Vietnam style war. I do not put it past Turkey to ethnically cleanse an entire race off the face of the earth, look at what they did to the Armenians?



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
Mdv this thread has absolutely nothing to do with Israel and Lebanon, which I do support. Yes Iran and Turkey openly admit fear of a Kurdistan, the PKK have proven to be formidable fighters. The PKK is not what I support, I support Kurdistan, PKK is a party that not many Kurds actually like, but keeps them safe. What i get from your post is that you would be OK with Turkey murdering millions of Kurds? Even though you condemn Israel for their actions? I know Turkey could get rid of the Kurdish problem, but like I said, which you did not see apparently, would be to massacre the entire region and commit genocide, other wise like every other time they go after them it is just another Vietnam style war. I do not put it past Turkey to ethnically cleanse an entire race off the face of the earth, look at what they did to the Armenians?


This thread has absolutely everything to do with the Israel - Lebanon conflict. I certainly wouldn't like to see the Turks killing millions of Kurds, like they did back in the 19th century to the Armanians, but according to Israel and the US a country is allowed to make an appeal to the right of self defense.

Let's compare the Israel - Lebanon conflict to the Turkey - Kurdistan conflict.
In both cases, the PKK and Hezbollah are [according to the US, Israel and Turkey] the ''bad guys''. The PKK kills innocent Turkish teachers, while Hezbollah abducted three Israeli soldiers, which [according to the US in specifically] gave Israel the right to defend itself. If this is the current norm, then Turkey should either be allowed to defend itself. Once again, this is not my opinion, this is what Israel and the US say.



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by Mdv2

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Mdv this thread has absolutely nothing to do with Israel and Lebanon, which I do support. Yes Iran and Turkey openly admit fear of a Kurdistan, the PKK have proven to be formidable fighters. The PKK is not what I support, I support Kurdistan, PKK is a party that not many Kurds actually like, but keeps them safe. What i get from your post is that you would be OK with Turkey murdering millions of Kurds? Even though you condemn Israel for their actions? I know Turkey could get rid of the Kurdish problem, but like I said, which you did not see apparently, would be to massacre the entire region and commit genocide, other wise like every other time they go after them it is just another Vietnam style war. I do not put it past Turkey to ethnically cleanse an entire race off the face of the earth, look at what they did to the Armenians?


This thread has absolutely everything to do with the Israel - Lebanon conflict. I certainly wouldn't like to see the Turks killing millions of Kurds, like they did back in the 19th century to the Armanians, but according to Israel and the US a country is allowed to make an appeal to the right of self defense.

Let's compare the Israel - Lebanon conflict to the Turkey - Kurdistan conflict.
In both cases, the PKK and Hezbollah are [according to the US, Israel and Turkey] the ''bad guys''. The PKK kills innocent Turkish teachers, while Hezbollah abducted three Israeli soldiers, which [according to the US in specifically] gave Israel the right to defend itself. If this is the current norm, then Turkey should either be allowed to defend itself. Once again, this is not my opinion, this is what Israel and the US say.



The difference is that the new Israeli war has everything to do with furthering an American and Israeli joint agenda. That is the only reason why we support Israel, that this might be a way into Iran if they infact act, or hell even if they don't. Turkey invading Kurdistan in our controlled territory will never sit well with the administration as they only have things to loose from it, like the only peaceful area in the country becoming a warzone. The PKK is however a terrorist organization, but like the Lebanese they cannot control what the PKK does. I assume you do not really hate Kurds, that you are being sarcastic to prove a point as to why America is supporting Israel, which is true I see your point, but seeing as we do not have anything to gain, then no an invasion of Kurdistan is not possible.



posted on Jul, 23 2006 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by Mdv2

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Mdv this thread has absolutely nothing to do with Israel and Lebanon, which I do support. Yes Iran and Turkey openly admit fear of a Kurdistan, the PKK have proven to be formidable fighters. The PKK is not what I support, I support Kurdistan, PKK is a party that not many Kurds actually like, but keeps them safe. What i get from your post is that you would be OK with Turkey murdering millions of Kurds? Even though you condemn Israel for their actions? I know Turkey could get rid of the Kurdish problem, but like I said, which you did not see apparently, would be to massacre the entire region and commit genocide, other wise like every other time they go after them it is just another Vietnam style war. I do not put it past Turkey to ethnically cleanse an entire race off the face of the earth, look at what they did to the Armenians?


This thread has absolutely everything to do with the Israel - Lebanon conflict. I certainly wouldn't like to see the Turks killing millions of Kurds, like they did back in the 19th century to the Armanians, but according to Israel and the US a country is allowed to make an appeal to the right of self defense.

Let's compare the Israel - Lebanon conflict to the Turkey - Kurdistan conflict.
In both cases, the PKK and Hezbollah are [according to the US, Israel and Turkey] the ''bad guys''. The PKK kills innocent Turkish teachers, while Hezbollah abducted three Israeli soldiers, which [according to the US in specifically] gave Israel the right to defend itself. If this is the current norm, then Turkey should either be allowed to defend itself. Once again, this is not my opinion, this is what Israel and the US say.



The difference is that the new Israeli war has everything to do with furthering an American and Israeli joint agenda. That is the only reason why we support Israel, that this might be a way into Iran if they infact act, or hell even if they don't. Turkey invading Kurdistan in our controlled territory will never sit well with the administration as they only have things to loose from it, like the only peaceful area in the country becoming a warzone. The PKK is however a terrorist organization, but like the Lebanese they cannot control what the PKK does. I assume you do not really hate Kurds, that you are being sarcastic to prove a point as to why America is supporting Israel, which is true I see your point, but seeing as we do not have anything to gain, then no an invasion of Kurdistan is not possible.





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