If you don't stand behind our troops

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by curiousity
Yes, I DO mean curtail your freedom of speech.

What you really mean is curtail the truth to the american public.

Do you think the soldiers don't read what you say and the media repeats?

The soldiers already know the truth and they will be living & dying the truth every day until the our occupation of iraq ends. Misrepresenting the iraq occupation only serves to conceal the failures of the occupation architects and it is a disservice to the soldiers. When an individual feels that the us government has cease performing the will of people, excercising the freedom of speech to criticize the government is not only our right, it is our duty as americans

Yeah, it's all about your rights. Your freedom of speech, your "duty" to voice "your" opinion, no matter what the cost and outcome.

that's what it's all about, no doubt, you, you, you.

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by curiousity
IF YOU DON'T STAND BEHIND OUR TROOPS,

PLEASE, FEEL FREE TO STAND IN FRONT OF THEM !!

This is truely a heart warming piece of crap.

Elevating military troops to the level of jesus christ is completely contrary to any interpretation of the bible that ive ever seen. How is this not blasphemy to any good christian?

If you must support war at least have the courage do to so on its merits. Jesus has nothing to do with the iraq crusade.

Agreed, a war has nothing to do with and cannot be compared with Christian doctrine, especially since as far as I know, Jesus was never in a war? I support our troops in what ever they do, they are young men and women who often have nothing else to do but to join the service, they simply follow orders. When you compare the troops and their actions in Iraq for example to that of Jesus dieing, you push your self away off to the distant land that is the far christian right.

Originally posted by curiousity
Let me 'splain a little somethin' somethin' to you post baby boomers

Let me 'splain a little something to you dude, I'm not a post baby boomer nor ignorant of the 60's thank you! And I don't wear bell bottoms (except when I was in the Navy), how old do you think I am? My Grandad spitting on returning troops? My Grandad fought in WWI! My DAD fought in WWII...

And seeing as I am one of the troops, I guess you missed that part, I will not keep my feelings to myself thank you!

There are 100,000 of us 'troops', those of us that were in the first Gulf War, who are sick with multiple unexplainable symptoms. The government refuses to offer any real help for us or even admit their vaccines are to blame. Even though it has been proved the vaccines are causing most of the symptoms. Not too mention the Agent Orange fiasco that still hasn't been addressed by the gov.
Our service seems to not actually end when we are discharged, I'll carry the scars of my service for the rest of my life. I am disabled and can't work because of my service. Because I was used as a guinea pig for untested vaccines. Support the troops by stopping that sort of crap will do far more than your prayers.

No one cares about the thousands of homeless vets once they're not being the 'heroes' you so badly seem to need. The support seems to disappear when ppl have to actually do anything. They're the ones that could use your prayers and care packages. Trust me troops in service are not short of those things, we were well taken care of.

Consider that, and take your foot out of your mouth...

Originally posted by curiousity
that's what it's all about, no doubt, you, you, you.

Damn right, my views are based on what I perceive to be my own best interests. And your views are based on what you you you consider to be your best interests. Whats your point?

America is all about individualism or it is about nothing. The us government exists for the sole purposes of serving 300 million or so individual americans. Freedom of speech is the vehicle we use to tell government what we as individuals expect from our government. Silence also sends a message. Silence on iraq gives government my implied consent to continue in the direction you desire, so I can understand why you want my silence.
.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by curiousity
Let me 'splain a little somethin' somethin' to you post baby boomers

Let me 'splain a little something to you dude, I'm not a post baby boomer nor ignorant of the 60's thank you! And I don't wear bell bottoms (except when I was in the Navy), how old do you think I am? My Grandad spitting on returning troops? My Grandad fought in WWI! My DAD fought in WWII...

And seeing as I am one of the troops, I guess you missed that part, I will not keep my feelings to myself thank you!

There are 100,000 of us 'troops', those of us that were in the first Gulf War, who are sick with multiple unexplainable symptoms. The government refuses to offer any real help for us or even admit their vaccines are to blame. Even though it has been proved the vaccines are causing most of the symptoms. Not too mention the Agent Orange fiasco that still hasn't been addressed by the gov.
Our service seems to not actually end when we are discharged, I'll carry the scars of my service for the rest of my life. I am disabled and can't work because of my service. Because I was used as a guinea pig for untested vaccines. Support the troops by stopping that sort of crap will do far more than your prayers.

No one cares about the thousands of homeless vets once they're not being the 'heroes' you so badly seem to need. The support seems to disappear when ppl have to actually do anything. They're the ones that could use your prayers and care packages. Trust me troops in service are not short of those things, we were well taken care of.

Consider that, and take your foot out of your mouth...

Thanks for using my post to jump on with your army boots, there, old guy. And apparently you didn't read the post, just jumped with both feet in your mouth.

I've dealt with vets like you, in fact I am one, my grand was in WWI, my dad in WWII, a great great however many fought the "bloody" British.

I lost an uncle on a ship in Pearl Harbor, and another one to a prisoner of war camp for 3-4 years, lost my dad to the after effects, hence he WAS my WWII, though he lived on until recently.

I fought my dad for trying to get my baby brother to join the war in Vietnam, and I won. Now my brother is a shell, a drunk without anything left to drink. Did I do him a big favor? I don't know.

Of course, the address wasn't to you, though I didn't know how old you were when I posted this, but obviously if the shoe didn't fit, you didn't have to claim it.

I can't stop the government doing whatever they are doing, but I can make sure that at least some of the guys out there now and trying to do their best know that someone here cares about them.

That's what I can do. You want the government punished for what you say was done to you? Jump on it. You want to make sure that the guys out there now don't have the same kind of experience? Do what you can to stop it.

But one thing I'll tell you for sure is that the government isn't going to stop anything because you post anti-government, anti-war messages on abovetopsecret. But the troops that read the junk can sure lose their focus, can't they? Thinking about how badly they MIGHT be treated, on top of the threat of death and dismemberment, beheadings and torture, not to mention the daily shoot-em-ups, MIGHT just cost one or more of them their lives, you want to live with that?

You and I know that there are organizations that are searching out the facts about Agent Orange and a host of other things that the government allegedly did during Vietnam and the Gulf wars. That's what they can do.

I can't make the VA take better care of you and others like you who believe the government is responsible for your disabilities. I can't make them admit they are responsible. But neither of those things will be accomplished by posting here, that's for sure.

But this much I can say about that. Other people have disabilities, other people have had bad things happen to them. It's been what, 30-35 years now since Vietnam? How many since the war you were in?

Bitterness costs only the bitter until the bitter open their mouths and let the poison out. Even then it costs the bitter more than anyone else.

Originally posted by curiousity
There seems to be a conspiracy against the military by civilians that rails against everything the military attempts and worst of all muckrakes the men in uniform

I'm a US Army veteran and I opposed the invasion of Iraq and the current occupation. I support the troops, until they act criminally.

The bush administration is abusing our troops. There is no reason in all the world to force our men and women in uniform to serve more than one tour of duty in war (unless they volunteer). These people are being sent two, three and probably four times into combat. That's depraved. It should be stopped.

That, to me, is supporting the troops.

Originally posted by curiousity
Of course, the address wasn't to you, though I didn't know how old you were when I posted this, but obviously if the shoe didn't fit, you didn't have to claim it.

It wasn't addressed to me? Then why did you quote my post? I didn't claim anything your quoting implied it was aimed at me.

Vets like me huh? So I'm just supposed to except it, keep my mouth shut?
I didn't volunteer to be a guinea pig and if vets like me don't make a fuss then nothing will change. I won't change anything by just posting on ATS? You have no idea what else I do. You seem to have a habit of thinking you know what everyone thinks, how everyone should think, and what we do. I'm not on ATS 24/7 unless you haven't noticed.

Bitter, dude I'm more than bitter. I'm 42 yrs old, I have osteoporosis causing fractures in my spine as well as other undiagnosable symptoms. I can't work, I can't play. The government refuses to admit that me and the other 100,000 GW vets are sick because of what they did to us. I didn't volunteer for that. And you wonder why I'm bitter?

Are you on the troops side? Sounds more like you're on the side of the government to me. Support the troops by making your voice heard, let the government know you're not happy that they're using the troops as guinea pigs, and ignoring the multitude of problems the troops have once they become vets. Support the troops by demanding an end to war to further the political and financial agendas of corporations. Your prayers and empty support don't do anything bro, but make you feel righteous...

[edit on 23/7/2006 by ANOK]

The vast majority of people care very deeply about our troops.

The problem is that we know they are being used as expendable pawns
by those who profit from the business of war.

Who's son or daughter should risk their life and limb for a war based on lies, deception and greed?

We DO support our troops and we want to see them returned to safety.

We know many will return to battle to protect their brothers and sisters until all can come home.

That is the honor of these brave young men and women.

Our anger is directed at those who sent these brave souls into harms way in the first place.

They are the lowest of vermin who deserve to spend the rest of their lives in prison
for what they have done.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the rest of the PNAC founders.





[edit on 23-7-2006 by FallenFromTheTree]

I do not excuse voluntary troops for continuing a war that they know is wrong. At least if they're smart enough to undersand that. Which at this point I don't see how they could not be. Those that refuse their orders and go to prison or do something else to remove themselves from the battlefield in this corrupt conflict are the only soldiers I stand behind.

This has always struck a cord with me. Solidiers do what solidiers are told. Solidiers do what they have to do to bring themselves and their fellow ones home.Solidiers do the nations dirty work.I should say politicians dirty work. Mothers have every reason to question why their child died.These solidiers volunteer do what their nation asks of them. The only thing they ask in return is to ony be used if deemed neccessary for the protection of thier countries.

It makes their job more difficult when average joe cant tell the differance between a G.I.'s actions and nixon's.(ex.vietnam used) My dad got off the "blue bus" and was spit on,hit and called a baby killer. He was an air force medic. Quite the opposite. Im only 19,but plan on enlisting next year,and head over to warrant officer training.

Sorry starting to rant All im saying is while the troops are abroad and doin thier best to come back home,our job is to shorten that amount of time as much as possible. When everyone comes back one way or another,then we discuss why we went.

Originally posted by curiousity
One particularly politically minded mother decided to make use of her son's death
to harass the military and President Bush: Cindy Sheehan asked President
Bush, "Why did my son have to die in Iraq?"

That poor woman has serious mental health issues. The radical left is using her
and when they are done they'll toss her aside. Her antics have caused her family
to leave. Divorce is now in her future. She claims the role of the grieving
mother trying to stop a war that her son didn't believe in; but her ADULT son
VOLUNTEERED to go into the service because he DID believe in the goals and
validity of the war. She can't accept that he gave his life for something that
he believed in and that she doesn't. There are SERIOUS issues with her ...
and if she doesn't get strong mental health help I sadly predict suicide will
be her future destiny.

As far as 'standing behind our troops' .... many of those who disagree with the
war believe that they are standing by our troops by questioning the need to
call up the military. They honestly believe they are standing by them by
looking after them and their interests. There is nothing wrong with making
sure that a military action is necessary - but the one thing that is forgotten in
this is that we don't have all the information that our elected officials in DC have.
They can't tell us everything and when we elect people we are supposed to be
able to trust them to some degree. (tall order ... I know!) The other thing is
that we don't understand all the dynamics of world situations. How many of us
are schooled in Political Science? How many of us understand that if Afghanistan
and Iraq are free then the anti-American political elements in Iran will most likely
fall on their own - squeezed by freedom on both sides and a young population
who wants to shake off the oppression of their leaders? A free and stable Iran
that doesn't chant 'death to America' every day is a very good thing for America.
Securing Iraq will help bring this about.

Most people who are against the war believe they are standing by the troops and
standing by America. Most of us who favor the war believe that we are standing
by the troops and America by ensuring that America is a safer place through the
elimination of radical islamic anti-infidel unstable governments.

There are SOME people who are anti-war and anti-America and WANT the troops
to fail and die... who want America to fail and die. They aren't hard to spot. But
they can't be lumped in with the people who 'stand by the troops' by questioning
the necessity of the war.

I just have a couple of questions to ask:

Do we have support the soldiers like those who raped and killed the young Iraqi woman as well as murdered her family as well?

Do we have to support the soldiers who kill innocent civilians and then prop a shovel and a gun to make the victim seem like an insurgent?

In fact, there are a rash of these crimes coming out in the news daily. If you even support these soldiers who have committed unspeakable crimes of war in your push to give them morale, then you've got to question your sanity and where your tax dollars are going.

Btw, I do support the soldiers who are honest, law-abiding, compassionate and moral. I support the Vets who have suffered immensely while the government cuts funding from the VA hospitals. Especially those veterans who are homeless. And I honor the service of those who have done their tour forthrightly.

But I will not support any soldier who murders, abuses, antagonizes or rapes innocent civilians. That is conduct unbecoming and dishonorable.


[edit on 24-7-2006 by ceci2006]

Ceci,

It could be that these servicemen commiting these crimes have been driven to it, by the insanity and pressures of war. How do we know what they were like before we shipped them off to war? It could be they're suffering from traumatic distress and a lot can happen under pressure. Plus dont forget, they follow orders.....
My traumatized hubby wouldnt hurt a fly but had to kill babies, men, women and children.
:shk:

No soldier or Marine is being ordered on any large scale to rape and kill innocent women and children. Yeah there's a few nasties out there who do things like that, but the orders don't come from way up there, maybe on the small unit level...like the Haditha incident.

To think that US commanders in Iraq are telling their troops to rape women is insane.

PTSD and combat related stress are serious conditions that need to be looked at more....but it's not an excuse to rape and kill innocents, especially babies. Imo, anyone that does that is already lose in the head, has something messed up in their mind before the PTSD and combat stress kicked in.

I know a few people that have done back to back multiple tours in Iraq, and yeah, they're a little out there if you catch my drift...but not to the point to where they would ever consider raping women and killing babies. That's due to someone just being a bad human being (who should be dealt with and pay for their crimes), not combat stress. As with all things there may be a few exception to this, but only a handful.

Sporty


[edit on 24/7/2006 by SportyMB]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by curiousity
One particularly politically minded mother decided to make use of her son's death
to harass the military and President Bush: Cindy Sheehan asked President
Bush, "Why did my son have to die in Iraq?"

That poor woman has serious mental health issues. The radical left is using her
and when they are done they'll toss her aside. Her antics have caused her family
to leave. Divorce is now in her future.

Do you think that any person who expresses dissent has mental issues?
Is this to assume those who buy the government line are sane?


How do you know this stuff? From where do you get your information?
The white house maybe?

Again I

Oh great, now instead of blocking people from sending me FWD chain letters trickled down to them via aol in my email, I get to see them posted on a forum. teh joy.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
we don't have all the information that our elected officials in DC have.

These well informed legislators are so spineless that they didnt even have the courage to vote a declaration of war against iraq and instead abdicated the constitutional duty of their office to the white house. Not only is this cowardly, it clearly a violation of the constitution. The constitution is quite clear on the requirements necessary to go to war. And those requirements have not be met.

A free and stable Iran that doesn't chant 'death to America' every day is a very good thing for America Securing Iraq will help bring this about.

Only someone with a screw loose would actually believe that oppressing, torturing and killing muslim men, women and children is going to make these middle eastern countries more pro-american.

[edit on 24-7-2006 by df1]

Technically, congress never declared war on north vietnam either.As for the bad seeds in the military,there will always be some. Convicted criminals were given a choice to go to jail,or vietnam.All you can do is try to weed out the bad seeds,and hope this minority doesnt end up representing the majority.

Originally posted by spanishcaravan
congress never declared war on north vietnam either...

This is nothing but an excuse for continuing to violate the law, but it is not a reasonable defense. Senator Sam Ervin says it best, "their has been murder and larceny around for many years, but this does not make murder legal nor larceny meritorious".

[edit on 24-7-2006 by df1]

Originally quoted by dgtempe
Ceci,

It could be that these servicemen commiting these crimes have been driven to it, by the insanity and pressures of war. How do we know what they were like before we shipped them off to war? It could be they're suffering from traumatic distress and a lot can happen under pressure. Plus dont forget, they follow orders.....

My traumatized hubby wouldnt hurt a fly but had to kill babies, men, women and children.

dg,

I was very harsh this morning. I apologize for the bluntness of my post. I should have taken the time to say that these acts have to be taken as a "case by case" basis. I do know that the stresses of being in combat and drive soldiers to do the most horrible things.

If PTSD was the case, it should be taken in consideration with their acts. With that being said, if it could be proven that if the stresses of war were part and parcel of committing the crime against innocent civilians, then they should be given the benefit of the doubt--complete with a psychological examination.

It doesn't make what they did right. But there were extenuating circumstances in what they did.

However, even you have to admit, there are soldiers in the armed forces (just like people in society) who are cold-blooded, sociopathic and lacking in empathy. They are dangerous with a gun in or out of the army. Doubly so, if they were taught the different skills of combat. Since they are taught to dehumanize the enemy, then a civilian on foreign soil has the potential of being viewed as the enemy too. When that occurs, they can simply kill the civilian or rape them and not feel any compunction for their acts. Causing that kind of harm can't hide behind PTSD or any mental problems.

They are just killers, intimidators and rapists in word, action and deed. And they don't care.

They do not follow orders from their CO. Their thoughts of harming innocent civilians are pre-meditated and executed with meticulous precision. They meant to do those things and could possibly get away with it because of the tulmultuous landscape of war. They are given a free pass in the military to practically be a serial killer because it was a time of war.

These are the soldiers I will not support because their acts are not honorable. In fact, their works are contrary to forthright service in the armed forces.









[edit on 24-7-2006 by ceci2006]