F-16 sale to Pakistan hits roadblocks

Originally posted by iqonx
It makes perfect sense that China does not need any technology from Pakistan from the F-16.

Then, pray you explain to me why China in its usual clandestine style is trying soo desperately to get hold of F-16 engines ?

August 3, 2006 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Ko-Suen "Bill" Moo was sentenced on charges of being a covert agent of the People's Republic of China and to export defense articles to them, including an F-16 aircraft engine.

According to in-court statements during the change of plea hearing, since at least February, 2004, Moo and others had been negotiating for the acquisition of numerous defense articles for illegal delivery to the People's Republic of China (PRC), included an F-16 engine.

During the negotiations for this equipment, Moo traveled to the United States on two occasions. During one of these trips, Moo actually inspected an F-16 aircraft engine and wire transferred $140,000 to cover transportation fees for the delivery of the F-16 engine to an airstrip located inside the PRC.

Moo told cooperating witnesses that he was an operative working at the direction and control of the PRC. He further revealed that the acquisition of the F-16 engine was to be a test purchase, which if successful, would commence a long term relationship during which Moo, on behalf of the People's Republic of China, would acquire other items -- including Blackhawk helicopter engines and air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles.

link

Here is a snippet from the editorial of a pakistani newspaper, The Friday Times and it throws some light on the situation faced by pakistan and the J-10 too.

F-16s and Pakistan’s constraints
by Moeed Yusuf

The much-delayed Pakistan-US F-16 deal is finally to be signed next month. The Chief of Air Staff’s briefing on the issue last week has received a lot of attention in the press. Apart from the usual focus on numbers and costs, there has been significant criticism on the reported terms and conditions of the deal.

Elaborating on the modalities of the deal during the briefing, the PAF chief acknowledged, rather apologetically, that the deal includes no guarantees of delivery from the US. Clearly, any deal without clear guarantees is inherently risky. This is especially true in the Pakistan-US case, where a history of holding such deals hostage to the overall state of bilateral relations already exists.

[....]

Perhaps the biggest factor is the PAF’s need. Notwithstanding reviews from certain quarters that challenged the need for the PAF to purchase F-16s, the PAF’s fleet is highly depleted and is in urgent need of up-gradation. The service has received no new aircraft comparable to the F-16s since the US invoked sanctions in 1990, and has even struggled to obtain spare parts for the existing fleet. Consequently, the total number of ‘flight capable’ aircraft at any given time is significantly lower than the total fleet size (due to some being out of service).

Moreover, contrary to popular belief, no option comparable to the F-16s is available to Pakistan at the moment. Pakistan did try to purchase the Swedish JAS 39 Gripen but the deal fell through, reportedly due to external pressure. The French Mirage jets were also considered but again their purchase could not be secured.

The JF-17 and J-10 Chinese jets are not mature technologies. Moreover, they are simply not comparable to the block 50/52 F-16 C/D, which Pakistan will be receiving. Even when the JF-17 comes on board, it will only replace the ailing Mirage and F-7 fleets and would not constitute a substitute for F-16s. Add to this the fact that the PAF has got a reasonably good deal in terms of costs for the entire package.
[...]

Finally, Islamabad must persistently emphasise the extreme negative impact on the already tarnished US image among the Pakistani masses if Washington were to rethink the delivery of the aircraft after the deal is inked. Such pressure could work since the US currently remains desperate to enhance its image among Muslim populations in the region.

Moeed Yusuf is a Consultant on Economic Policy at the Sustainable Development Policy Institute in Islamabad.

Even the pakistani's dont seem to think too highly of the J-10's. Some reports of enquiries and interest and everything died out.

They have chosen downgraded and stripped versions of F-16's with sivere restrictions on their use and capabilities & without garuntees over spare part supply over the chinese J-10. That speaks for itself IMHO.


[edit on 15/8/06 by Stealth Spy]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
They have chosen downgraded and stripped versions of F-16's with sivere restrictions on their use and capabilities & without garuntees over spare part supply over the chinese J-10. That speaks for itself IMHO.

Thats the other way around, they choose the J-10 over the F-16

I thought a google guy like yourself would be well informed on what actually has happened. Just because nothing has been in the news means the J-10 deal has already passed like newspapers reported eariler

Original plan was to buy 77 NEW F-16s before the earthquake hit, this meant no J-10s

The plan is is for 18 Block 52 (option for 18 more) and 26 used MLUed F-16s. That equals 44 for the lesser amount and 62 planes for the higher amount. 62 is the largest amount of planes they are getting

77 - 62 = 15 planes
77 - 44 = 33 planes

But now Pakistan ARE getting J-10s

Cabinet Approves Purchase Of F-16's And J-10 High Tech Aircrafts

April 17, 2006: Pakistan's cabinet gave approval to the country's air force to begin negotiations for the purchase of F-16 and J-10 fighter aircrafts from the US and China. Both America and China has already offered these planes to Pakistan. PAF will purchase 98 hi-tech aircraft besides missiles and other equipment to improve the capabilities of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Mixed package of hi-tech aircraft and equipment is being purchased from USA and China are as under: J-10 aircraft (36), F-16 A/B, ex-Pakistan (26), F-16 C/D (18 with an option for 18 more), SD-10 BVR missiles (300), BVR, 500 (American), targeting pods 18 and joint direct attack munitions (500).

Then, pray you explain to me why China in its usual clandestine style is trying soo desperately to get hold of F-16 engines ?

Because the things you read are for the mass media. Why do you think he has not provided any edvidence he was under the control of the PRC government. Why do you think he was a known taiwanese arms broker. Why is it that word of mouth is just accepted. Why hasn't there been a diplomatic protest?

Why does china already have two engines which out-perform the engine in question?. Why has both these engines been tested on aircraft and would cost billions to re-design and refit a INFERIOR engine?(In very low quantity)

WS10A Turbofan Engine was formally design certificated and named “ Taihang

Russia Signed AL-31 Engine Deal with China

Even the pakistani's dont seem to think too highly of the J-10's

If you read it carefully, it tells you why

The JF-17 and J-10 Chinese jets are not mature technologies. Moreover, they are simply not comparable to the block 50/52 F-16 C/D, which Pakistan will be receiving.

Both aircraft's primary role is air superioty NOT ground attack as the Block 52 is to be used as. The main reason the US passed the F-16 and agreed to the deal was because it's going to be used to fight the taliban in northern pakistan.

Its got nothing about performace but the different roles each plane will play in those forces

This picture shows the J-10 in service. Its supposely at the 44th division at chengdu

Not that I want to get into the discussion and debate here but that picture doesn't tell me anything CW. Credible reports of training and deployment missions would be much better.

You missed out on the audio

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe I missed the other meaning of your post, but is it about the fact that the J-10 is deployed?

[edit on 30-8-2006 by chinawhite]

Yeah, it's not that I doubt you it's just that for me at least, the picture above doesn't show anything, maybe I’m missing out on the text?

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
They have chosen downgraded and stripped versions of F-16's with sivere restrictions on their use and capabilities & without garuntees over spare part supply over the chinese J-10. That speaks for itself IMHO.

Guess they didn't, another thing added to your pile of lies

Pakistan decides to delay F-16 deal with US

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan has decided to delay signing a deal to purchase F-16 aircraft from the US after it found that the planes would be delivered without electronic warfare systems, which are vital for real time monitoring. The F-16 deal is thought to be Pakistan's reward for assisting the US in the war on terror, but relations between the two allies are on a low in recent months.

After the Pakistani Air Force complained that the warfare components were missing, the Ministry of Defense requested the US Secretary of Air Force International Affairs, (SAIFA) to extend the date of purchase till December 31 this year, according to a report in Pakistani weekly Friday Times. Pakistan was thought to be on the verge of signing the letter of acceptance (LOA) for purchase of 36 F-16 fighters, but the deal looks to be in murky waters now.

www.earthtimes.org...